PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

The grenades are really not a problem. But they do encourage statpadding, lame tactics and unskilled behaviour as it is now. Let's face it, how guns don't shoot down infantry fast. You'll always see those dude using grenades as primary weapon as much as they like to prone at your feet or jump around like bunnies.

I try to kill a soldier but he throws a grenade at me. I have to cancel the shooting and start running away. Have no time to finish him off first cos it also takes too long.

The nades are really too present and everybody uses them alot, fast resupply and very effective radius. So yes there is a nade spam going on. Does that make me running into them all the time? No, but they do ruin the freedom, skill and pace of the game.

Couldn't have said it better myself and that's exactly why I dislike grenades as much as I do. Grenades (and claymores, and the tube) need to "know their role", and that role certainly isn't a replacement for the main rifle in an infantry kit. It should be a supplement - sup‧ple‧ment: something added to complete a thing, supply a deficiency, or reinforce or extend a whole. When grenades can do everything an assault rifle can it is no longer a supplement. Four grenades (or in the case of support kit infinite) provide sustained killing potential, can kill point blank, in an open field, and at medium ranges. It's easier as you can fire and forget or just chuck them at random. Worst of all it's more effective due to the large blast radius, no problems with laggy hitboxes, high damage and the potential for a mass long range indirect killing. The grenade user can cause all of the carnage and without even exposing themselves to any harm. When I fire at an enemy with my rifle they always have the opportunity to fire right back at me.

Reducing a player to 1 unresupplyable grenade leaves the high damage large blast radius intact but converts a grenade from its previous state which allowed it to provide sustained fire to more of a situational tool that is best saved and used when the rifle cannot do the job as well (for example killing a camper behind some sandbags or a sniper on a rooftop).

With grenades in their current incarnation I can join any server, spend the entire round tossing grenades at choke points or spawn points and end the round with 30 or more kills without any skill required. Gathering the same 30+ kills with an assault rifle is much more difficult and actually requires the player to be quite skilled. So why should grenades have this lopsided advantage in raw killing potential, and a huge defensive bonus when they are absolutely the easiest thing in the game to use? Go figure.

[Combat-Quokka]

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

With grenades in their current incarnation I can join any server, spend the entire round tossing grenades at choke points or spawn points and end the round with 30 or more kills without any skill required.

Noobs will die regardless. Skilled players don't have this problem.

Nothing needs to change at all.

[TooL]

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

Out of all the released patches i think 1.4 is the best of em all. It added Jalalahbad which i think rocks.But yeah there are still a few kinks that need to be fixed in 1.5 if there is one. I'd like to see singleplayer weapon unlocks and smarter bots in 1.5 patch.

It's only better because it doesn't crash every 5 minutes - otherwise most of the outstanding issues have yet to be addressed.

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

Noobs will die regardless. Skilled players don't have this problem.

Nothing needs to change at all.

It doesn't matter how skilled you are if you've got a few people raining grenades down on you and you're surrounded in an exploding field of death created at random by a bunch of newbies looking upward and pressing the fire button, you're dead meat.

[joshblancett]

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

It doesn't matter how skilled you are if you've got a few people raining grenades down on you and you're surrounded in an exploding field of death created at random by a bunch of newbies looking upward and pressing the fire button, you're dead meat.

i agree with you phanewhore just adding some humor to this endless post

[mondo66]

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

The medic doesn't need a weaker gun imo. If you're in a good squad with a medic, you can be as good as him.

Your kidding, the medic is the assault class now, look at what PW plays. Engineer and medic. Thats the reason behind the nerfing.

[Furious321]

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

...the medic is the assault class now

Yep, why play as Assault? : Short sprint; an average weapon, unless a G3, which -negatively- only carries 20 rounds per clip; and a nubish/buggy nade launcher to which you almost feel guilty for using...

When you have Medic? : Long sprint; (G36E) extremely powerful/overused firearm; virtually unlimited health considering the med kits; the ability to receive 2 GP per revive, and 1 GP for healing.

Must I say more?

---

Regarding engineers being capable of removing claymores (mentioned on first page)... let's first think about how this mere crescent wrench has the ability to fix any operable vehicle in the game, repair howitzer cannons, repair a small UAV headquarters structure that was previously in collapsed condition after being C4ed [Same goes for Sat trailer], and is able to make anti-tank mines and anti-personnel claymores disappear into thin air.

What next? The ability to throw them at people as crucial, melee-attack weaponry?

Other than the mentioned bugs in this thread... this game needs diversity.

[L3adcannon]

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

there aint gonna be 1.5

But about the fixes

The grenades are fine. If to add anything then the ability of cooking them, better physics.
If to tone down the number of nades a person has and take away the possibility of resupplying them, then the nades should be made much more powerful. Americas Army is a good example how powerful a nade should be.

Don`t really care about the other gaynesses (spelling?)in BF2, now that I have my ranked IO mode.

EA will prolly disband them all after Bad Company and a few patches for BF2142 are done.

[[B1]Creasy79]

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

a 1.5 patch....r u kidding me? Your smoking too much "green" my friend. Dice/EA are too busy with 2142, we're all a lost cause.

Mark my words....There will be another patch coming to a computer near you.

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

These three fixes and nothing else would make this the best patch DICE has ever created.

[Sepp_Dietrich]

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

You'd love Red Orchestra, then again maybe you wouldn't.Might be "Too Real" for you.

http://www.redorchestragame.com/

[L3adcannon]

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

I love RO. The realism and attention to detail is amazing.

[[MyIS]Spetsnaz]

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

Yes, RO really is great. I love the concept of popping up a bit when you aim so when you're behind cover you actually stay in cover. Once you bring up your sights the guy popups up so you can shoot... bring down your sights and you're back in cover.

Avoiding as in placing yourself and your opponent so that it would benefit you? Or avoiding as in not going near them throwers?

Both, depending on the situation.

The point that I keep trying to make is that yes that jumping+grenades all of the time does look flat out weird and totally makes it look like Unreal tournament. HOWEVER, all of it can easily be avoided if you play tactically and shoot well.

I said the beginning that I agree with PlaneWhore's fix ideas 100%. It would definitely change the pub servers not because the grenades are overpowered right now, but because the majority of casual players are underpowered in their skill. Since they obviously don't care about getting better or even winning the round most of time, it is necessary to nerf certain weapons so the newbies can't be exploited...

But... even though I agree with the fixes, I still have no problem dealing with things the way they are now. Grenades do not get the best of me because my gameplay isn't black and white... I move based on the situation. If there are 10 guys throwing grenades into a flag zone, I'm not going to run in there. I'm going to turn around and head further down the line where there is less opposition and let my squad spawn on me.

People that get naded in flag zones so much that it becomes and annoyance are those that don't think quickly enough. They don't know how to expect enemies because their attention spans in game don't last very long.

If you get killed by a grenader in a 1v1 confrontation... or even 2v1... you have tactical issues to deal with.

No, of course you shouldn't always stay at a distance... but you should always stay at a safe distance in that you will be able to take cover from the grenades at any point.

It all depends on the situation. Sometimes it's useful to run directly at the guy throwing grenades at you. Have you learned how to time the grenade throws yet? If not, that's an example of being lazy and not trying to beat the guy by outsmarting him. Sometimes you can fool them... pretend you're running away then quickly turn around and lay some in him. You should be able to kill him before he gets the 1st grenade out of his hand, but if not, you can always avoid 1 grenade by running in the opposite direction of where it's going and while he preps the second nade, take him down.

The gameplay you are expecting is impossible in BF2 due to alot of factors. One of the main factors is that all static objects and map objects are intentionally scaled down to make the maps look larger. Buildings are much smaller and roads are very thin (even main roads). The map then looks big like there are alot of buildings so it seems you're fighting at longer distances than you really are. That and the speed of the gameplay, other weapons, etc cause the gameplay to be very quick.

IMHO, the point of the game (BF2 and many others) is not to recreate a realistic battle for you to enjoy but to take inspiration from real life and give it that "pacman" sprinkle so it's more of a game than a fight for survival. RedOrchestra is great, but at times it just gets flat out frustrating because you just want to have fun and not focus so much.

Your goal shouldn't be to get a kill in a way that you would in real life, but to outsmart your opponents.

And please admit, whenever you get clobbered in any game there's always an excuse. Always. Grenades are just one of those excuses that some people choose to beat... and others choose to make their excuse.

I accept grenades as tools to break stalemates and catch people who are behind cover. I dont accept grenades as a first weapon of choice in an engagement. Just like C4 is a tool for creating an ambush and a tool to take down enemy assets. Just like a grenade launcher is a tool to transport a grenade to longer distances than a human can throw (!). Thing is, a grenadier throws a grenade far enough and with a high enough firerate to combat a rifleman. You say "You cant aim", I say "Thank god for high pings and bunnyhoppers".

I always get a great ping, find a better server.

Bunnyhopper is just another one of the excuses I mentioned above. What happens in BF2 is *not* bunnyhopping... play some CS and you'll see what real bunnyhopping is. In BF2, killing a bunny hopper is MUCH MUCH easier than killing a target that is shooting back at you. This is obvious to anyone who can snipe well or shoot well for that matter.

What do you think Im trying to say?

Im saying a guy throwing grenades 20 metres and above faster than a grenade launcher isnt really using a tool to break stalemates or engage multiple targets.

The open endedness of game is at fault here. Games that restrict gameplay seem to be more your style...

I like games that allow you to do all sorts of crazy things to challenge your skill. I enjoy trying to outsmart the opponent and actually beat them. Grenades are an obstacle that I have long since overcome. So have many others who have been playing BF2 since the demo.

Hell, even in Red Orchestra you can do this. If more people would play that game there would someone like you saying that grenades are making the game worse for you. In RO you can grab nades and throw them in the same direction at round start (enemy always comes from the same place)... you come up to their bodies and pick up their nades and continue. I've seen guy go on a 20 or so kill streak by doing just that. The reason? Because everyone just rank forward like monkeys without surveying the terrain first. I, on the other hand, move carefully and tried to get a good field fire as we moved in and dropped that guy with one shot to the face before he could pull the pin.

Americas Army had to flat out remove grenades from SFCSAR because people were doing the same thing.

In order to really enjoy this game you need to forget all this realism nonsense and actually worry about the *game* ... as in ... trying to outsmart your opponent. Once again, I always have alot of kills, plenty of flag caps and a great K/D ratio... and I always play on Karkand (nade heaven)... and I always assault flags... why isn't this a problem for me?

In most games grenades have a distinctive disadvantages compared to firearms. BF2 does not create any tactical disadvantage to grenade throwing, and since guns have this "random cone of fire" thingy, engaging a target that needs 3-5 hits to drop is harder than jumping and throwing off nades from 20+ metres.

Grab an L85A1 and you can pop a target at long range with 2 shots and sometimes with 1. If they are close enough to throw grenades then (if you can shoot right) you can drop them with 1 shot easy. If they are really 10-20 meters away then a burst to the upper chest takes care of them easy.

SVD/M24 is no contest. Headshot nearly every time or keep practicing :)

Some weapons do take even more than 3-5 hits to kill but avoiding grenades is so freakin easy man... just run in the other direction.

Some of the most popular disadvantages to grenade uses in various games-

*-Limited distance (overcome in BF2 with jumping)
*-Limited numbers (People actually choose when to throw in other games, in BF2 you basically have an unlimited number of those)
*Long priming time (switch to grenade, pull the pin, wait for the "distance charge" and throw, takes plenty of time when youre voulnerable. In BF2 its *4* + *left mouse* + *space*, with no time restrictions, for example, SWAT4 has a pretty good system with 2 second weapon swap time, very long pin pull and throw time aswell.)
*-Good firearms that punish people harder for making tactical mistakes. I think Im not the only one telling that BF2 is pretty forgiving in infantry aspect. One of the reasons why BF2 is suggested over CS for people new to FPS.

And yet nearly every realism based game (something BF2 isn't) still has huge problems with nades (Americas Army, Red Orchestra, Raven Shield).

Indeed. The exact same could be said as a comment to J10 vs F35B situation... Doesnt make it right though.

Uh... lol... that does make it right. If you don't watch yourself then you'll get owned by any weapon.

Mid to long range. Jumping and moving target. Sorry, I dont want to hack, I want to go to gamers heaven :p

Ok so your complaint is that it's hard to take out a target at mid-long range (M16, L85A1, M24, M95, L96A1, G36E/C, AK, AKM, PKM). And I'm telling you that I can drop a target at grenade range with a 2-3 single shots.

Here's a tip before you imply cheating... don't use burst at mid-long range. Duh :laugh:

Heres the thing. You have to EITHER shoot him or run away. If you wont kill him before he throws off that first grenade, youre dead. So basically, youre at a disadvantage. If you run, its YOU who must reposition yourself and youre on defensive. If you shoot, and cant hit before he throws off first grenade, its back to the respawn screen.

Gawd. It's not like the grenade has a blast radius of 10 miles. Just run away from where it's being thrown. You know.. in the other direction? It's only 5 or 6 steps.. then you drop the ground and kill your target (if you can ).

Thing is, this wouldnt be a problem, if weapons were more accurate. If youre running and jumping at someone unarmed, you deserve to die a quick death. In BF2 constant bunnyhopping takes care of that. And being able to throw with a jump only encourages it.

You deserve to die a quick death provided the guy you're running at can shoot. If he can't shoot, then he deserves to go back to the spawn screen.

Based on your statements above about long range burst fire and accuracy problems you have and that doing any better just must be cheating... you need practice. I don't cheat and the guns are plenty accurate for me. (Check my sniper rifle stats... that is while I assault... I never ever ever dwell on rooftops or hills).

I can come up with all sorts of tactical tips and whatnot, and I can take care of grenadiers. Not because I have a good aim, which I dont. But thank god I think before going somewhere. This however doesnt change the fact that the reward and simplicity of grenade use in BF2 is not exactly right.

Finally. That's what I've been trying to get at. Nope, it isn't right -- but it shouldn't affect your game in the least. It's easy to overcome.

As for BOB - Episode 5 I think, could be wrong, where they ambushed a large group of Germans. I didnt see not ONE of them throw grenades at them. Ambush was made using firearms, accurate firearms that did not leave the Germans a chance to retaliate. If a guy comes at you in BF2 and he has a grenade which he has not yet thrown, and you have a gun, he should not be able to send a grenade at you, jump away and retreat.

You mean the one when Lt. Winters popped the red smoke and ran in on his own? They weren't throwing grenades because it was a waste of grenades. Also to throw a grenade far you need to stand up... which increases the chances of getting shot. That is, if the guy shooting at you can shoot! It's the same with BF2. It would be stupid to get up and throw a nade if you get shot so easily, but most people can't shoot so it isnt a problem

Funny, I do and see it all the time :P

Hehe, well don't take it out of context. Vets get naded, but there are vets that still can't play. I should have said experienced player.

Meh, ridicule me all you want. I havent said real life = BF2. Im constantly trying to show that there are more similarities than people would (want to) see.

The similarities that you speak of have to do with human nature, not real life engagements. And seeing as humans play the game, stating human nature as a similarity is pointing out the obvious. However, comparing a real life engagement (whether paintball or war) is a bit silly given the fact that the entire game is a cartoon.

It's like me pointing out similarities between real life and porky pig.

Nadespamming in TWL matches isnt a rarity - Ive seen dozens of skirmish videos and nadespamming has a place there. True, people do not engage a rifleman with a grenade in head-to-head conflict.

When you stop bulletspamming and footspamming then we'll talk about that.

What many competitive clans realize (not all of course, some clans aren't good with competition) is that you need to take what is thrown at you. The competition organizers usually balance out the game settings but they rarely ever change the underlying essense behind the game... they may exclude/include features but the game is never modded to fit the competition.

Agreed, but saying that this is the only reason why, would be wrong.

Why though? If someone is doing something stupid, *yes* they deserve to get kicked to the spawnscreen but the gaming shouldn't have to do that... it's all based on the player. The whole concept of virtual war is to assume both armies are well trained right? A well trained BF2 player would drop a nader in a few kicks of the chamber :)

Heres the thing. You think that Im a rookie and I cant play the game and I need help figuring out methods to counter certain aspects of the game.

Yep.

No. Im a seasoned player, just with a bad aim. Experienced, but with a bad aim. This is a forum, and this is a topic were discussing. So, even though I can manage, doesnt mean I agree. And thats why Im talking.

I too am discussing... I hope there aren't any hard feelings... but debating about the game is fun too! :-D

How can you be experienced with bad aim though? Quite the paradox you are...

Game development is not easy, indeed. But slight asjustments in timing of various activities is pis5easy. And thats what Im talking about.

And I'm talking about little adjustments having huge affects.

They do X 1000 :p

They do X infinite+1! omgpwnt

Thing is. I didnt misread you. I just find that too hard to believe. Giving you the benefit of the doubt could be an option.

Why would I take all of this time to post if I'm just jiving ya?

In real life people would never try to cross distance without coverfire, to throw a grenade at you. It happens in BF2, all the time.

True! Where was your cover fire? In real life if some guy runs into the middle of the street with a grenade in his hand, running toward US Marines... he wont get his finger to the pin before getting a bullet carefully lodged directly in the cranium. Same in BF2 if you can shoot.

No, but they are pressing you to retreat. Thats half of the victory.

But you admitted that you're not a good shot. So if you're not a good shot, you already lost half the battle.. right?

Or do you want the game to adjust for your lack of accuracy?

[joshblancett]

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

good post,spetsnaz
i use to think that the grenade fight that would start ever round in k-land was horrible,i hated playing it for that reason. i would get ticked that my own teammates would kill me more than enemy. then after a few rants here about the subject, i started to read what most of the higher ranked players said about this- just move- go somewhere else than the center of the map. i tried the advice and had a very good round just picking off the nade addicts running up for their fix. thanks,
i still think that the nade fight takes as much skill to do as this

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

Spetz, I can sum up your stance with one sentence-

Get better at playing.

While true and universal, isnt an answer.

The point that I keep trying to make is that yes that jumping+grenades all of the time does look flat out weird and totally makes it look like Unreal tournament. HOWEVER, all of it can easily be avoided if you play tactically and shoot well.

Everything can be avoided by "playing tactically and shooting well". C4 chucking, n00btubing arent an exception. Those are means of players finding more effective ways of killing their opponents. They got canned. The thing with grenades is that theres a possibility for unlimited supplies combined with extra-fast ROF, or using bad netcode to avoid hits while throwing grenades at a target with high mobility. Youve proven that you can take out that bunny. Great, most people cant. You probably could take down the C4 bunnyhopper aswell, most couldnt. I actually fail to see the difference between grenades and the previous C4 issue.

Pre 1.2 STA situation. I aknowledged it didnt work as well as it should have been, yet I also knew that they were effective at their role. STA got changed, even though enough practice would make an operator successful.

But... even though I agree with the fixes, I still have no problem dealing with things the way they are now. Grenades do not get the best of me because my gameplay isn't black and white... I move based on the situation. If there are 10 guys throwing grenades into a flag zone, I'm not going to run in there. I'm going to turn around and head further down the line where there is less opposition and let my squad spawn on me.

"I have no problem with the situation because I dont go against them, therefore its fine." or "I have no problems with the situation because Im skilled enough to handle it."

Game would be at 1.0 state right now if there were more people like you. Which isnt necessarily a bad thing.

Im kind of torn between two opinions. Either not change the gameplay and leave everything to depend on skill (problem and counter). Or change the game so everything would fit into their own roles. Since BF2 offers buggy netcode with sometimes bad hit detection and people often exploit as many anomalies as they can, I would vote for restricting gameplay to restrict exploiting those anomalies. Grenades are not affected by ping, and jumping makes you a harder target to hit. More often than not, when enemies engage each other at midrange, at least one of them starts jumping (closing distance), throwing grenades. The reason they do this is because it works.

Heres what I would want- remove the tactical advantage of throwing grenades at people in open areas. Give people more accurate rifles that do more damage and there will not be any such scenarios I described. Increase the throw-time, to increase that tactical disadvantage.

This way, as youve put "newbies" into the equation, inexperienced players will not fall for grenade shower methods where their target shurgs those 2-3 bullet hits off with a medpack.

As for newbies, I see this tactic used against anyone, any rank. And the message screen flashing "grenade" as a kill method extremely often is a proof enough for me.

People that get naded in flag zones so much that it becomes and annoyance are those that don't think quickly enough. They don't know how to expect enemies because their attention spans in game don't last very long.

If you get killed by a grenader in a 1v1 confrontation... or even 2v1... you have tactical issues to deal with.

Correction- "you get killed by a player in any confrontation you have tactical or skill issues to deal with". Were not talking about tactical issues here. Were talking about one method proven itsself to be more useful in almost all situations, than it should be. Using grenades as a primary should have SEVERE backfire in most confrontations. Not just the ones against [MyIS]Spetznaz.

No, of course you shouldn't always stay at a distance... but you should always stay at a safe distance in that you will be able to take cover from the grenades at any point.

The moment you take cover, you force an opponent to choose a weapon to engage a target who is behind cover... which is a grenade.

It all depends on the situation. Sometimes it's useful to run directly at the guy throwing grenades at you. Have you learned how to time the grenade throws yet? If not, that's an example of being lazy and not trying to beat the guy by outsmarting him. Sometimes you can fool them... pretend you're running away then quickly turn around and lay some in him. You should be able to kill him before he gets the 1st grenade out of his hand, but if not, you can always avoid 1 grenade by running in the opposite direction of where it's going and while he preps the second nade, take him down.

I do this all the time. But youve once againt started teaching me, when I dont need to be taught.

Its like teaching a F35B pilot how to try to evade J10, when the issue still remains.

The gameplay you are expecting is impossible in BF2 due to alot of factors. One of the main factors is that all static objects and map objects are intentionally scaled down to make the maps look larger. Buildings are much smaller and roads are very thin (even main roads). The map then looks big like there are alot of buildings so it seems you're fighting at longer distances than you really are. That and the speed of the gameplay, other weapons, etc cause the gameplay to be very quick.

On the contrary, this would promore tactical gameplay because of the fear of easy death. Isnt that something youd like to see?

Accurate weapons, longer time delay between grenade throws and shorter throw distances would slow the pace down quite a lot. The more time you have to think, the more tactics you deploy.

IMHO, the point of the game (BF2 and many others) is not to recreate a realistic battle for you to enjoy but to take inspiration from real life and give it that "pacman" sprinkle so it's more of a game than a fight for survival. RedOrchestra is great, but at times it just gets flat out frustrating because you just want to have fun and not focus so much.

Indeed. Then why change the gameplay in the first place. Judging by this, they should have left the game to 1.0 state.

Your goal shouldn't be to get a kill in a way that you would in real life, but to outsmart your opponents.

Unfortunately BF2 does not offer that much room for "outsmarting" an opponent as the way the weapons work do not allow this. It comes down to better shooting skills mostly. SWAT4 is an example of how 1 shot kill weapons create a suspenseful environment where all it takes is one quick burst. That makes killing a target that much easier, and as such, thinking comes into the equation.

From a tactical point of view, BF2 is a twichy shooter based on pure aim and experience with little thinking (most comes from instincts), while in SWAT4 for example, youll be surprised that you can actually execute a combat maneuver, with shooting itsself being secondary to planning, which is primary.

And please admit, whenever you get clobbered in any game there's always an excuse. Always. Grenades are just one of those excuses that some people choose to beat... and others choose to make their excuse.

Meh, I get clobbered because other players hack :laugh:

No really, Im not that good yet, I cant blame others for my misfortune in game. But that doesnt mean that I dont know whats going on.

I always get a great ping, find a better server.

Not an option. I dont play for frags nor points, but because of the company.

I like games that allow you to do all sorts of crazy things to challenge your skill. I enjoy trying to outsmart the opponent and actually beat them. Grenades are an obstacle that I have long since overcome. So have many others who have been playing BF2 since the demo.

Theres no obstacle for me in game that I can not overcome. Meaning, I always have a chance at any danger because Im experienced enough. I can take any tool in the game and use it effectively. Again, doesnt mean Im blind.

Hell, even in Red Orchestra you can do this. If more people would play that game there would someone like you saying that grenades are making the game worse for you. In RO you can grab nades and throw them in the same direction at round start (enemy always comes from the same place)... you come up to their bodies and pick up their nades and continue. I've seen guy go on a 20 or so kill streak by doing just that. The reason? Because everyone just rank forward like monkeys without surveying the terrain first. I, on the other hand, move carefully and tried to get a good field fire as we moved in and dropped that guy with one shot to the face before he could pull the pin.

You know, I dont really have a problem with people nading flag areas. Its standard procedure. "STING and CLEAR" in SWAT4, command coded in and such. They even train you to use a grenade against areas where you suspect enemies to be. I have a small problem with relatively high ROF of grenade throws.

Second biggest issue, as mentioned, is that there is no tactical disadvantage engaging a riflemen at range. Grenadier hops, while rifleman must prone. If there were more accurate guns and better hit detection, there would not be hopping grenadiers because it would be a suicide attempt. Right now, it isnt a suicide attempt.

In order to really enjoy this game you need to forget all this realism nonsense and actually worry about the *game* ... as in ... trying to outsmart your opponent. Once again, I always have alot of kills, plenty of flag caps and a great K/D ratio... and I always play on Karkand (nade heaven)... and I always assault flags... why isn't this a problem for me?

There is no way to outsmart your opponent unless your aiming skill doesnt support you. as such, you simply outskill your opponent.

Let me ask you, when did you see people set up ambushes in BF2, using FIREARMS? I have not seen such a thing. I have never, or extremely rarely seen people hide behind corners to hit targets running around the corner.

1. Becuase it takes a lot of hits to down a target
2. Hit detection and severe effects of latency

This is why, to create such ambushes, explosives are used. SWAT4 has wonderful weapon use possibilities and 95% of ambushes are held with weapons, and a guy creating an ambush will win the engagement at a more than 75% success rate. Im using KDR of campers as a base for percentage here.

In BF2, its claymores, C4. Never a firearm. Theres people camping themselves near flags at defensive positions, indeed. But never ambushes to cover a street.

Grab an L85A1 and you can pop a target at long range with 2 shots and sometimes with 1. If they are close enough to throw grenades then (if you can shoot right) you can drop them with 1 shot easy. If they are really 10-20 meters away then a burst to the upper chest takes care of them easy.

You must be a kickass player to headshot a hopper...

SVD/M24 is no contest. Headshot nearly every time or keep practicing :)

You must be a kickass X 2 player to headshot a hopper with a rifle...

Some weapons do take even more than 3-5 hits to kill but avoiding grenades is so freakin easy man... just run in the other direction.

Running means ditching the engagement and leaving your position. Like in dogfights, runner is a runner. Runner is a target.

And yet nearly every realism based game (something BF2 isn't) still has huge problems with nades (Americas Army, Red Orchestra, Raven Shield).

Absolutely. I blame the lack of vision of people. Theres a way to create perfect nade use. Where grenades are used as secondary weapons, to deal with situations when rifles cant be used. Rifle is a soldiers primary weapon. I think BF2 should enforce that a little more.

Uh... lol... that does make it right. If you don't watch yourself then you'll get owned by any weapon.

So you would agree that J10 vs F35B situation is fine?

Ok so your complaint is that it's hard to take out a target at mid-long range (M16, L85A1, M24, M95, L96A1, G36E/C, AK, AKM, PKM). And I'm telling you that I can drop a target at grenade range with a 2-3 single shots.

On most occasions one of them must be a headshot. You must be a kickass player. Sorry, but I dont think vast majority is.

Here's a tip before you imply cheating... don't use burst at mid-long range. Duh :laugh:

Who said anything about cheating? I use single shot very often. Trying to hit the hoppers is whats hard.

Gawd. It's not like the grenade has a blast radius of 10 miles. Just run away from where it's being thrown. You know.. in the other direction? It's only 5 or 6 steps.. then you drop the ground and kill your target (if you can ).

While you run, there are 2 other grenades thrown, further from initial target zone. Running back a little isnt the best option.

You mean the one when Lt. Winters popped the red smoke and ran in on his own? They weren't throwing grenades because it was a waste of grenades. Also to throw a grenade far you need to stand up... which increases the chances of getting shot. That is, if the guy shooting at you can shoot! It's the same with BF2. It would be stupid to get up and throw a nade if you get shot so easily, but most people can't shoot so it isnt a problem

Exactly, throwing a grenade in RL creates a SEVERE tactical disadvantage, while in BF2 those disadvantages do not exist, or there are ways to use bad netcode to not to be affected. Thats what Im getting at. Id like grenade use to be a maneuver which creates tactical disadvantages at the moment of throw and weapon change. I would like a guy think twice before throwing a grenade.

When you stop bulletspamming and footspamming then we'll talk about that.

For me, engagement starts at spawn screen, not first visual contact.Gunning is an issue affected by my ping (average ~150-200 in the servers I play in). The fact that grenades overcome that ping disadvantage whereas firearms cant, is another reason for me disliking grenades being overused.

Why though? If someone is doing something stupid, *yes* they deserve to get kicked to the spawnscreen but the gaming shouldn't have to do that... it's all based on the player. The whole concept of virtual war is to assume both armies are well trained right? A well trained BF2 player would drop a nader in a few kicks of the chamber :)

But they dont. Thing is, in a situation where two players are of similar skill level, better player should win, right? What if one of the players is a rifleman and another throws grenades. The grenadier wins. They are both equally somewhat below average. Grenadier bunnyhopped his way from midrange distance into throwing distance. This happens very often.

Heres how it should be, provided that the players are equal, the player with tactical advantage and tactically more fitting weapon should win, right? Open range, a rifle should inflict maximum damage at a very short timeframe, so that basically an unarmed player would never have a chance.

I too am discussing... I hope there aren't any hard feelings... but debating about the game is fun too! :-D

No, not at all. At least its entertaining.

How can you be experienced with bad aim though? Quite the paradox you are...

Experienced man in bed does not move faster, he moves "better"

My point is- aim in BF2 shouldnt be the primary factor in an engagement, and it often is. Outsmarting an opponent is a rare sight. While you may have the first shot at your opponent, this does not reward you as much as it should.

And I'm talking about little adjustments having huge affects.

Increased pin pull time for a grenade will hardly make J10 have 16 missiles.

True! Where was your cover fire? In real life if some guy runs into the middle of the street with a grenade in his hand, running toward US Marines... he wont get his finger to the pin before getting a bullet carefully lodged directly in the cranium. Same in BF2 if you can shoot.

And in Karkand streets they dont need coverfire because they can easily absorb those 2 hits! Plus the netcode can fail at times and you only feel 1 hit! In real life, youd be scared to put your head out of cover. In BF2, people jump around tanks.

But you admitted that you're not a good shot. So if you're not a good shot, you already lost half the battle.. right?

I should be able to create tactical advantage enough to balance out my bad aim. BF2 does not offer that.

Or do you want the game to adjust for your lack of accuracy?

I want the game to give me a chance to win an engagement regardless of my bad aim .

I want the game to give me a chance to take down a grenadier running at me from 50 metres without him ever tossing a nade into my range. And I shouldnt play a year to achieve that level of skill. I can hit a target 2-3 times. But more often than not this does NOT kill them and I am forced to retreat. I dont really think this is right.