PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

**[MyIS]Spetsnaz** · 09-28-2006, 03:00 AM

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

Originally posted by Chris_Redfield

Prime example of grenade use in "real life". I play airsoft a lot and part of combat is "Home made" grenades, using dried peas as shrapnel and firecrackers as the explosive. Grenades are used for breaking stalemates where conflict is held from "behind cover". The use of grenades is a little slower process and once you hold a grenade youre voulnerable. So coverfire from teammate is needed to have a safe throw. Usually nades are used when theres no way to get the guy with the gun. They are effective at THAT role, but as a standalone weapon they are of no use because guns outrange them.

Agreed.

**Chris_Redfield** · 09-28-2006, 03:03 AM

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

Originally posted by [MyIS]Spetsnaz

PlaneWhore, Chris: You're losing yourselves. What you're talking about now is the main reason I disagree with alot of PlaneWhore's comments (the initial post in this thread is 100% correct though). Once the discussion gets deep, everything goes back to the way it was -- you guys telling people how they should play the game.

I think the problem is you guys are... well... not very good at infantry playing (not an insult, just stating the obvious here). If you get harassed by claymores and grenades so much that you say...

... something is wrong with your level of skill. Saying grenades are unavoidable is just plain lunacy because I avoid them all of the time. You just need to learn the basics of movement in game.

I could literally write out an entire page on how tactical movement in-game. Then I can write out another page on squad movement and how to have good teamwork on a pubby server. It's all possible but you actually need to work to get it right. It's not easy. If infantry combat in bf2 is easy, why are you having so much trouble and I am not?

I actually do lack in infantry combat skills, but I know PW doesnt. Im not trying to tell people how they should play the game, Im saying that using grenades as a first hand tool in a firearm distance shootout is wrong. But I try not to blame people, I blame the system. "Dont hate the player, hate the game." In fact, its up to developers to create the system where everything is used properly. Using grenades as a first hand tool at any type of engagement is lunacy. But since game proves this method to be effective, then it should be altered. This raises a question - why the hell are there firearms when grenades take care of infantry anyway?

Using grenade launchers at point blank as an instakill weapon is another one of those situations where players take advantage of the peculiarities of the game.

Bottomline, I dont hate the players, as they use every means they can to survive and succeed, and you cant blame them for doing that in an online MP game. However, I do disagree with the freedom the game offers to use these peculiar methods of engagement.

Another thing about grenades is that they overcome the ping problem. One thing I notice when playing in different ping level servers, is when I play with 150ms ping, out of 3 shots that should hit the target, only 1 hits. Compared to ~50 ms ping servers where its a different story. Grenades however are not affected by ping (that much) and offer a universal method against most targets at all times.

Allright, they are explosives and fit to combat most threats, but they are also pis5easy to use, and thats the main thing I disagree with.

**Bungalow_Bill** · 09-28-2006, 04:17 AM

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

Originally posted by [MyIS]Spetsnaz

I think the problem is you guys are... well... not very good at infantry playing (not an insult, just stating the obvious here). If you get harassed by claymores and grenades so much that you say...

... something is wrong with your level of skill. Saying grenades are unavoidable is just plain lunacy because I avoid them all of the time. You just need to learn the basics of movement in game.

You claim I'm not very good at infantry but my statistics would suggest otherwise. In fact the constant cheating allegations I get hit with every day I play suggest otherwise.

Maybe grenades aren't much of a problem on your hall-full large map low population server running Kubra Dam with 8 players but on every large popular server I play on grenades are exploited heavily to the point where they are a problem. When you've got fewer players they aren't so bad but fact is that isn't a good benchmark for the potential of grenades. People like to dumb it down and say "What's wrong PW can't you run from that grenade!" and truth is I have no problem escaping from that one random grenade. But when a large amount of players adopt this kind of cheese tactic when I sprint away from that first grenade and second third and forth grenade land in front of me and all possible escape routes. Even as few as three or four support players can pretty much make a large chunk of important map space (such as Karkand Hotel region) an uninhabitable death field. That is in its most basic form pure exploitation of broken gameplay mechanics. In no other game (FPS or otherwise) I've ever played has such a massive amount of random unskilled spamming even been possible or more importantly so effective.

Most people who don't have problems with grenades are those who are content to sit back behind sandbags and toss grenades themselves, snipe from afar or whatever other gameplay style does not have to deal with grenades. I however am not such a player. I move forward, I attack the enemy and my main goal is to push the enemy back and capture flag. If players such as myself ceased to exist this game would degenerate in to one pointless trenchwar. Basically, campers and other types of submissive or defensive players don't experience the same problems with grenades that I do and as such they don't see a problem. Proactive infantry such as myself will encounter grenades in mass. They will become tedius. Playing a non-stop game of "run from the grenade" isn't my idea of fun.

I just want this game to be more skillful and the two major steps that need to be taken to achieve that is doing away with unlimited grenades and indestructable claymores. If you still think I want claymores or grenades removed completely then you're just an idiot. Less total unresupplyable grenades = intelligent use of grenades is now required. Destructable claymores that can no longer be placed down right in active combat chokepoints in plain sight = intelligent use of claymores is now required. If you don't like those end goals then you're a spammer yourselves and it's really just that simple.

**aLi3nZ** · 09-28-2006, 04:37 AM

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

I agree with your first post to reduce spamability with nades and claymores, but I havent had much problem with them on Full 64 plr Road to Jelly, Mash, Sharqui or 32 plr karkand which are the maps I have been playing lately. Still no 64 plr IO Karkand server up in NZ or AUS btw and yes karkand nade spam is always a problem until Hotel is capped on the 64 plr servers.

I have a couple of tactical spots on Road to Jelly I position my self in when the start of round nade spamming is going on. And once JunkYard or Outpost is capped, the CQC is great. eg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxuwN...elated&search=

Point is I think the fix for nades and claymores is mainly necessary for 64 plr karkand. I don't think you should be getting that ****ed off when people are whoring them on other maps. Not sure about grenade spammer being able to get more kills then players using mainly gun on city maps either. Or maybe I am just lucky enough to play with people that don't usually go exploting infinite nades the entire map.

Good to see someone getting out their ideas to make this a better game though.

Cheers.

**imported_Jazza** · 09-28-2006, 04:40 AM

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

Originally posted by aLi3nZ

Still no 64 plr IO Karkand server up in NZ or AUS]

GA #2 runs Mash/Sharqi/Kark/Jalla in 64 player size, and amount of people in its rotation.

GA #14 runs all the above maps, 32 players max and 32 player map size.

**aLi3nZ** · 09-28-2006, 04:44 AM

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

Originally posted by Jazza

GA #2 runs Mash/Sharqi/Kark/Jalla in 64 player size, and amount of people in its rotation.

GA #14 runs all the above maps, 32 players max and 32 player map size.

Exactly, no Karkand Only IO 64 plr. I did know about those servers, those are some of the ones I have been playing on lately. Mainly the NZ Jalla only as GA# 2 is a bit laggy for me and the NZ Mash/Sharqi/kark/Jalla is hardly ever populated.

**ViolenT** · 09-28-2006, 09:05 AM

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

There wont be a 1.5 patch. This is a very pointless discussion and should be closed.

**[MyIS]Spetsnaz** · 09-28-2006, 10:32 AM

Re: PlaneWhore's top 4 BF2 changes that need to be in the 1.5 patch

Originally posted by PlaneWhore

You claim I'm not very good at infantry but my statistics would suggest otherwise. In fact the constant cheating allegations I get hit with every day I play suggest otherwise.

Link?

Maybe grenades aren't much of a problem on your hall-full large map low population server running Kubra Dam with 8 players but on every large popular server I play on grenades are exploited heavily to the point where they are a problem.

Nope, flat out wrong wrong wrong. Whenever I play (I don't get to play all that much anymore), I play on Karkand 40-64 player. Occasionally I'll play on 32, but the map size is 32 as well.

When you've got fewer players they aren't so bad but fact is that isn't a good benchmark for the potential of grenades. People like to dumb it down and say "What's wrong PW can't you run from that grenade!" and truth is I have no problem escaping from that one random grenade. But when a large amount of players adopt this kind of cheese tactic when I sprint away from that first grenade and second third and forth grenade land in front of me and all possible escape routes.

Wrooooong. Again, so so wrong. The only times there are places where grenades are an issue is:

a) Urban infantry only maps.
b) When you're on the front line.
c) When you're in the front line flag zone.

Hell, I can even run directly to the frontline and rarely get hit by nades. It's all about movement and intuition. You need to be thinking at all times and e very moment you do needs to be based on your surroundings.

Even as few as three or four support players can pretty much make a large chunk of important map space (such as Karkand Hotel region)

About time you admitted to the Hotel thing. Avoid Hotel in the beginning of the round. The problem with the Hotel flag has nothing to do with nades. If nades weren't useful, you'd see more claymores. If claymores are not useful, you would see people place C4 all over the place and hide. If that wasnt useful, you'd see noobtubes everywhere. If that wasn't useful, you'd have bunny hoppers to complain about.

The removal of every tactic creates 10 more tactics that you would complain about.

The problem with Hotel flag in the beginning of the round has nothing to do with grenades... it is what will *naturally* happen when you place 20 players running at another 20 players (or in your case, 32 players running at another 32 players -- because it's easy to assume your entire team runs down the meatgrinder).

So atleast you proved my point with that statement.

That is in its most basic form pure exploitation of broken gameplay mechanics. In no other game (FPS or otherwise) I've ever played has such a massive amount of random unskilled spamming even been possible or more importantly so effective.

Nope... it's not exploitation of game mechanics... it's exploitation of brain mechanics.

Players that think constantly (myself, a few friends and some great opponents that I've played against which I wont list here) have no problem with the things you are describing. I can even run directly into the Hotel meatgrinder and survive... though I rarely do because it's flat out dumb (in a tactical sense).

As I mentioned in my first post in this thread (which I hope you saw). The problem is people like you only see BF2 infantry combat as the Hotel on Karkand... which is sad, because the beauty of this game is that there hundreds of little games within it.

Most people who don't have problems with grenades are those who are content to sit back behind sandbags and toss grenades themselves, snipe from afar or whatever other gameplay style does not have to deal with grenades. I however am not such a player. I move forward, I attack the enemy and my main goal is to push the enemy back and capture flag. If players such as myself ceased to exist this game would degenerate in to one pointless trenchwar. Basically, campers and other types of submissive or defensive players don't experience the same problems with grenades that I do and as such they don't see a problem. Proactive infantry such as myself will encounter grenades in mass. They will become tedius. Playing a non-stop game of "run from the grenade" isn't my idea of fun.

Wrong again buddy. I'm always rushing forward to get my squad going. The only time I settle down a bit is when the entire battle turns into a stalemate (ie: river on Karkand) and I need to get across and provide a spawn point. Also, I'll hide behind the sandbags on Train Accident while my guys take the flag because that flag is such a pain in the bum to get to. Otherwise, I'm the first to cap MEC main or I'm the first to defend a flank against USMC.

I just want this game to be more skillful and the two major steps that need to be taken to achieve that is doing away with unlimited grenades and indestructable claymores. If you still think I want claymores or grenades removed completely then you're just an idiot. Less total unresupplyable grenades = intelligent use of grenades is now required. Destructable claymores that can no longer be placed down right in active combat chokepoints in plain sight = intelligent use of claymores is now required. If you don't like those end goals then you're a spammer yourselves and it's really just that simple.

I agree 150% with your initial thoughts in this thread about grenades and claymores. I'm not arguing that those things are a problem that needs to be fixed. However, I'm just trying to help you enjoy the game more. I never have a problem with claymores or grenades and I play very tightly packed urban maps with 40-64 players. Not only that, but I'm the first to take flags and my squad is always #1 because I work hard to get them to work together (read this thread for more on that: http://www.totalbf2.com/forums/showt...php?p=1249690).

There is a whole new side of BF2 that you haven't discovered yet (many others haven't either), but that's ok as long as you're having fun. From the looks of it, you're not having all that much fun so that answer to change the "game mechanics", but to change your "brain mechanics" :P

**[MyIS]Spetsnaz** · 09-28-2006, 10:32 AM