Project Reality New Procedure For Server Code

[solodude23]

Re: Project Reality New Procedure For Server Code

Though I can't say I personally agree with it. Can you imagine what modders would think if EA stopped us from modding BF2 just because they didn't want us to change the way "it was meant to be played". We (and by we I mean most development teams, probably including PR) complain about all the stuff EA hardcoded and can't be changed but at the end of the day, at least we're still allowed to mod it to our liking (or at least attempt to).

Thats different. WAY different. When we make mods for BF2, its actually a different "game" that you must download and KNOW you download. You even start it like a different game. Now with server side modding, you can change whatever the hell you want possible with the server coder (which makes a HUGE impact on the gameplay of PR) You don't even need a different title. You can name it whatever you want, but do people know if thats the way PR really plays or not? No.


And to ALL of you. Most of you are replying without even knowing the damn story. You don't even know what happened. You don't even know the goals of PR. I chose not to reply to most of you for this exact reason. Perhaps you should read some of eggmans posts before commenting.

You know what happened in .5 to PR? At times, there were more modded servers than servers with the defaults set. New players joining looking for tactical play would join one of these 10 second respawn, unlimited sniper rifles, 10 second respawn for tank servers. Because of these simple changes, the servers were the OPPOSITE of tactical. This turned realism upside down. Because its a specific clan, the server would often have players (from the clan.) These new players come along and join the server because it is already populated and do they come in contact with the way Project Reality is meant to play? The way DEV's worked for thousands of hours of their life so it would play? Hell no.

The PR DEV's do NOT mean for the mod to be popular to the general public. They want it to only be appealing to the hardcore tactical realism players. They are not striving for the most players or whatnot. They just want their game to play the way they designed it, and they do not want 60% of the servers playing more arcadey than vBF2 itself.

If this clan wants, they can have their server modded however the hell they want - but it must be passworded. You won't even believe how hectic .5 was compared to all other prior releases, and it was obviously because of these modded servers.

Here is a SUGGESTED read by ALL of you.

The release of v0.5 saw a proliferation of modded servers. In particular "short spawn" servers and in some cases servers modded so heavily that PR ended up playing like BF2 with more deadly weapons.

And those servers gained in popularity because there are enough lemmings to flock to servers like that and people tend to glom to the populated servers.

As a result we had thousands of players trying PR that thought it was BF2 with more deadly weapons. Game play quality was awful for weeks.

Normally after a PR release there are some window shoppers. They play the mod and decide they hate it because everything takes so long. Our design is intended to be unappealing to those folks. They either adapt to how PR needs to be played, or play a different mod. We absolutely do NOT want the mod altered to meet the needs of those kinds of players, nor do we want to be a "popular" mod and have mass mainstream appeal.

So we're going to change how we distribute the server code and diligently enforce the license agreement we are creating.

And another:

Some folks have some decent ideas on server mods. So they would be "non PROS" servers. The TG guys fall into that category. Great guys, great server, some minor mods that we are generally OK with.

Some folks have some awful ideas on server mods. So they would be in violation of our upcoming license agreement. We don't want PR to play like vBF2 with deadlier weapons.. we want it to play like PR.

After the v0.5 release I couldn't even recognize the game when I played on the modded servers. And I couldn't even figure out how to evaluate feedback from players because the mod was so heavily butchered by some admins that it became server specific feedback and nobody remembers what server they encountered an issue on.

The "retort" from these folks is that if their servers were full, then their changes must be good and, as a result, good for the mod. And they then think that somehow they have a legal right to use that as a basis for modifications to software they are not the owners of.

For me their rationale was antithetical to how we have tried to incrementally build a community. Each release adds a few new bells and whistles and another crack at appealing to a broader audience of hardcore tactical gamers.

We're typically trying to inch our way to being the ultimate multiplayer tactical combined arms experience. Dumbing it down to appeal to a more mainstream type of player is a major step backwards against what has been a continual, intentional and laborious effort to keep moving PR away from the gamey origins of BF2 and more into the realm of "legacy" tactical games like Infiltration, Flashpoint, JO, etc, etc.

We want to keep some sensibilities and discretion on the part of the PR Dev team so we have a means of dealing with people who lack those acuities.

Comically these folks think it is their right to modify the software. Under no stretch of any imagination will we permit people to think they can modify PR without our permission and make those modifications available to the public in the form of a publicly accessible server. Our license agreement will permit us to prevent unauthorized use of the software by any "reasonable and lawful" means necessary.

[Jblankster]

Re: Project Reality New Procedure For Server Code

Good move!

exactly. its about time

[solodude23]

Re: Project Reality New Procedure For Server Code

In addition, I am SURE the PR community have some remorse (right word?) for this clan if they didn't respond so immaturely.

http://www.cduclan.com/home/modules....er=asc&start=0

[KatieWolf]

Re: Project Reality New Procedure For Server Code

Holy craps, look at all these people complaining about SSM, they must have really sucks at playing Realism Game. Seriously, why are you even gonna bother playing this mod if all you want to do is spawn quickly, or to run around getting a sniper rifle kit? Just leave and stop playing Tactical Shooter, because its obvious that you failed at it.

[crimsonandgold]

Re: Project Reality New Procedure For Server Code

cool ...

[solodude23]

Re: Project Reality New Procedure For Server Code

Yet another new post by eggman. Any more dissagreeing comments there DrunkenPirate? Real-BadSeed? |D|-Jaws? Shrooms? [SFA]Bigboom? I understand how you may all be skeptical origonally about this, but as a PR player myself, I represent the PR community on saying we agree with his decision. I won't go through that .5 crap again.

We're doing it to protect the investment of thousands of hours into building PR and the PR community. I've said this before and I'll say it again so y'all can hopefully understand where we are coming from.

The BF2 mod player base is TINY and player communities are very tenuous. Look at your DCON server. Nobody plays on it. When measured by concurrent players, PR is about the same size as all other BF2 mods combined. And that's still TINY.

When we release an update to PR the game play quality always degenerates for the first couple of weeks. New people are trying the mod and old people are trying new things in the mod. After a couple of weeks the window shoppers move on, but a small percentage of them stick with the mod. And the "veterans" of previous releases start to figure out the new releases and the quality of game play will progressively elevate to (hopefully) levels higher than the previous release.

What we observed with the release of v0.5 was a proliferation of modded servers. I was totally naive at how far people would want to mod the mod. The list of changes CDU had done to PR were *extensive* and it no longer played anything like our intended design.

And like Lemmings new players flocked to it. So rather than the mod being punitive to their play style, the mod was adapted to their play style. And then with all those Lemmings, compounded by the tiny size of the BF2 mod player base, it actually became difficult to find a populated server that was not either heavily modified or short spawn times (this was more so the case in North America then in the EU or Asia).

So now we have a mod environment where our core audience and fanbase can't jump on and get a decent round going. And our forums started to fill up with inane suggestions that were uncharacteristic of the PR community. And when you'd jump in game the quality of play was atrociously bad and the vibe in the community began to get very polarized. Through no direct actions of our own our product was being manipulated in ways that alienated our core audience!

We obviously are not going to let that happen. It's simply too small a player community to fracture it like that. And that core audience has been very loyal to PR, we absolutely are not going to alienate them (and our preferences for gameplay are such that we wouldn't want to).

We're a first time mod team. We have invested a HUGE amount of energy into building the mod and the community. Aside from FH (because I don't know their numbers) PR has the largest community of any BF2 mod. We don't have any BF42 / BFV fanbase or "namesake pedigree" (a la DC / DCon) to draw upon to build the PR community. It has been entirely our own efforts since BF2 was announced.

Along the way over the last 3 years we've encountered a lot of issues that are completely "unfun" to deal with. The last time around in dealing with this issue with CDU, I pretty much lost interest in modding because I couldn't believe that people (CDU) could be so unreasonable and disrespectful toward other people (PR Dev Team) who give away their time for free for other to enjoy *as we intend it to be enjoyed*.

From a design perspective, we INTENTIONALLY make PR suck for your average jump in, run 'n' gun gamer. That's a conscious strategy in how we have built our community and our software. You will either hate it, or find it intriguing enough to adapt to how the mod requires you play to enjoy it.

We've done that bit by bit with each release... tweaked out the "gheymeyness" and injected more realism and more metaphor for realism with every release. The server side mods we have seen, particularly those done by CDU, were a MAJOR step backwards in our pursuit of our design goals and had a negative impact on our gaming community. That impact is not yours to debate or assess. We are the founding members of that community and it's our assessment that counts as y'all have not been involved with that community enough to gauge the trends and growth, so please don't try and debate whether modded servers were a good or bad thing as some CDU folks have tried in the past... our assessment is that they were a bad thing and, as the community founders, that's the assessment that counts.

I've said it elsewhere if the BF2 mod playerbase was riding at 10,000 concurrent mod players, and PR had a 10% "share" ... we probably wouldn't even care or notice modded servers. But this is NOT BF42 and DC... this is a mod playerbase environment where less than 5% of the BF2 players are playing mods at any given time.

So originally this was about protecting our design, how that design appeals to our core and loyal player base and how the evolution of that player base affects our community. But with a commitment from CDU to be disrespectful of our reasonable measures to communicate our wishes, it's evolved now into a much broader conflict and made us aware of things we need to do to protect PR and our gaming community from folks with malicious intent, because nothing about what you guys are doing here is with sincere intent.

egg

[DrunkenPirate]

Re: Project Reality New Procedure For Server Code

Yet another new post by eggman. Any more dissagreeing comments there DrunkenPirate? Real-BadSeed? |D|-Jaws? Shrooms? [SFA]Bigboom? I understand how you may all be skeptical origonally about this, but as a PR player myself, I represent the PR community on saying we agree with his decision. I won't go through that .5 crap again.

I'm not allowed to have an opinion anymore? Is my previous post invisible to you or something?

[solofowaffles]

Re: Project Reality New Procedure For Server Code

good to hear,pr lost its sense of realism with those server side mods.

[kiff]

Re: Project Reality New Procedure For Server Code

a mod should be able to have cotrolled "pure" servers where the gameplay remains as the devs intended. theyve put in countless hours making it a certain way and ssm's can break it very easily. that said, i support ssm's too. i dont particularly care for them myself, but they should be supported imo. i put a lot of extra time (that i really didnt enjoy) into making dcon smm'able, but i think it was the right thing to do. it encourages new ideas and a type of evolution.

its been said that allowing ssm's along with "pure" servers would break up the pr community. i kind of doubt that would happen. most pr players like the gameplay and will probably want to play on "pure" servers. clans that like ssm's should also be able to enjoy the way they like it too, even if others dislike how it plays.

[Bigboom]

Re: Project Reality New Procedure For Server Code

Don't get me wrong I'm not having a go at the PR devs for doing what they've done. Maybe it is the best thing for their mod. It's just I personally don't agree with it. That's all I meant...

[MMad]

Re: Project Reality New Procedure For Server Code

Interesting move.

I wonder if it'll work?

[solodude23]

Re: Project Reality New Procedure For Server Code

I'm not allowed to have an opinion anymore? Is my previous post invisible to you or something?

Huh? My post wasn't meant to be hostile if you had assumed so for some reason. No need to be so hostile yourself. I am curious if you have the same opinion now. In fact, I just want to know peoples reasoning. It is of course and extreme measure, but only because the situation is equally as extreme.

I understand it may be different for POE. I assume you would like a large fanbase? You generally just want people to play your game, don't you? You don't go for any specific types of players, do you? Therefore modded servers don't really hurt you. You want the general public to play your mod, and they can play however they want. That IS your goal. That is not the same with Project Reality.

*The following is not directed at you DP*

You know, its not always the fact that someone may be unaware of the modded server. When I just started playing PR, I probably would have loved a short spawn server. I sucked at playing tactically or realistically. I played as if it was vBF2 and yet I didn't realize why I sucked so bad when just starting. In addition to dieing so much I thought, "wtf? long respawn sucks." Note: I played since PR's first release. Luckily there weren't any short spawn/modded servers and now I am damn happy there wasn't then. I became a much better tactical player and I am much more patient both in-game and in real life. I now hate short respawn and support all features in the mod.

So - just imagine it now. What if I had the same attitude as I did then but I was new to PR as of today? With all the features in PR, all the tactical realism, and many more somewhat complicated things in the mod, I would have LOVED a modded server. I am positive many of the players started out this way. In fact, many of the people I play with today originally didn't like the mod and would have also probably liked a modded server when they started. However, I am extremely happy there was not any modded servers then and I was damn upset about .5 and all the modded servers.

In addition, time and time again new players come on the forum complaining about simple things like respawn times, limited kits, and all sorts of other features in the mod that tactical realism players like. In time, I have seen these players develop into liking the mod, supporting all the features, and then becoming some of the best players of the game today.

So as you can see, there is almost always a process that players go through to like the mod. They try it, don't like it, then keep trying and eventually understand what they must do and change their playing style to fit the game. When you have a modded server, it eliminates that process. It takes away from the true mod which they would get used to and love. Instead of going through this process, they just give it up and join one of the modded servers.

Modded servers kill the community.

Of course there is always that player who never gets used to it (or never tries). This mod is not made for them. This mod is developed to be for the hardcore tactical realism gamers that we are, and no one else. As already stated, the DEV's are not striving to, please everyone. Their goal is not to have the most popular mod. They just want their OWN mod populated with that players its meant to have.

[xb385]

Re: Project Reality New Procedure For Server Code

In addition, I am SURE the PR community have some remorse (right word?) for this clan if they didn't respond so immaturely.

http://www.cduclan.com/home/modules....er=asc&start=0

what a bunch of ****tards...

nice move PR, way to preserve the integrity of youre mod!
just because the cow is free and for you get its milk doesnt mean you can **** the cow ...lol

[|D|-Jaws]

Re: Project Reality New Procedure For Server Code

Yet another new post by eggman. Any more dissagreeing comments there DrunkenPirate? Real-BadSeed? |D|-Jaws? Shrooms? [SFA]Bigboom? I understand how you may all be skeptical origonally about this, but as a PR player myself, I represent the PR community on saying we agree with his decision. I won't go through that .5 crap again.

Sure, I'll disagree...

Originally Posted by eggman
So now we have a mod environment where our core audience and fanbase can't jump on and get a decent round going.

Go pay for a server yourself, gather up your core fanbase, and play PR until your fingers bleed.

I mean c'mon, FFS, whose to blame if there aren't any populated vanilla PR servers????????????????????

[solodude23]

Re: Project Reality New Procedure For Server Code

|D|-Jaws, in all of your posts you are more or less stating how you dislike PR (besides its maps :p ) more than anything else. You don't like the gameplay, we know that. Realism is not everyones cup of tea. Thats why the mod is only made for tactical realism players.