The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Songua actually gets plenty of it, especially with the countless hills overlooking points. There are more maps than Karkand too, Mashtuur, Sharqi, even Gulf of Oman gets PKM sniping when two points on the beach are being fought over.

Yea, from the guys running straight across open field who don't know what they are doing. I just played on Oman yesterday and got 2/10 k/d ratio with the assualt and killed nearly every support that was there. Doesn't help them at long range unless the guy is completely out in the open or maybe these guys actually know how to use the kit correctly? Just because they kill someone doesn't mean the kit is too powerful, it may mean they are just good. But long range a support is pretty much fodder for any AR or carbine which is why I say the guys running across open field suck because they should be using their weapons instead of charging Rambo style.

[sidtherat]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Also, mention is made using the PKM in single shot mode...pop...pop...pop. Anyone KNOW what the minimum time is between shots for the deviations to reset to first shot? It seems to me too many conclusions are being reached based on single shot accuracy.

these conclusions are en par with reality - go and play some urban maps, and see it yourself. it isnt hard to show that something is not working, and many are trying, saing that 'in their humble opinion pkm is not overpowered'

bull!

single shot? simple - tap tap tap - i dont knowthe proper time, but i feel it quite well, outsniping snipers on sharqi is starting to become tedious and borring.

of course you are not going to hit a barn stantding on full auto - but only idiots use pkm this way and cant understand what we are talking about - single shots, not spray

try to use it in correct way, the way many of us thinks is complete bullcrap - if someone doesnt believe - many of you know eachother from servers - do a shootout and see for yourself. no crappy watergunn can win with pkm in good hands. NO ONE - it hits snipers at the fog distance - standing, not zoomed, that zoom sucks anyway, it obscures the target and has no impact on first shot

anyone who says, that pkm is balanced is as credible as anyone telling that 1.12 AA was good

[SK]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

But long range a support is pretty much fodder for any AR or carbine which is why I say the guys running across open field suck because they should be using their weapons instead of charging Rambo style.

Sure, don´t let your little fantasy get destroyed by actual gameplay. How about you just try out the PKM once instead of the assault rifles? You´ll be embarrassed just how accurate it is.
The positive thing is that most people don´t know that the PKM has only 500 m/s muzzle velocity and a thus much higher bullet drop than the other guns, making their bullets fall short sometimes.

[Cornbread Mafia]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Sure, don´t let your little fantasy get destroyed by actual gameplay. How about you just try out the PKM once instead of the assault rifles? You´ll be embarrassed just how accurate it is.
The positive thing is that most people don´t know that the PKM has only 500 m/s muzzle velocity and a thus much higher bullet drop than the other guns, making their bullets fall short sometimes.

PKM has a 825 m/s velocity..

The SVD sniper rifle has a muzzle velocity of 830 m/s...

[SK]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

We´re talking ingame here. Ingame all handguns but support guns have a muzzle velocity of 1000 m/s (even pistols), and all support guns have a muzzle velocity of 500 m/s.

I quote the PKM´s tweak file:

rem -------------------------------------
ObjectTemplate.animationSystem1P Objects/Weapons/Handheld/RULMG_PKM/AnimationSystem1p.inc
ObjectTemplate.animationSystem3P Objects/Weapons/Handheld/RULMG_PKM/AnimationSystem3p.inc
ObjectTemplate.projectileTemplate RULMG_PKM_Projectile
ObjectTemplate.velocity 500
ObjectTemplate.itemIndex 3
ObjectTemplate.delayToUse 1.83
ObjectTemplate.heatAddWhenFire 0.025

[Cornbread Mafia]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

We´re talking ingame here. Ingame all handguns but support guns have a muzzle velocity of 1000 m/s (even pistols), and all support guns have a muzzle velocity of 500 m/s.

I quote the PKM´s tweak file:

So then ALL assault rifles have the advantage of first hit.... And greater accuracy over distance...
PKM has a Delay to Use of 1.83. I can imagine teh assault rifles don't have as high a delay to use, so the assault rifles have the ability to straike first in head to head confrontations...

[SK]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Afaik the delay to use is the draw time, and it´s highly unlikely that a support player will anything but his PKM in his hands these days.
The assault rifles have much lower accuracy than the PKM, only their bullet drop is less pronounced. If you know about the PKM´s drop you can hit far away targets more consistently than with the assault guns.

[Cornbread Mafia]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Just add more recoil to the standing position of the PKM and MG36...

What i am afraid of is, if EA/Dice goes messing with the numbers again, we could have a completely useless support class again...

And based on EA/Dice's past moves i believe my fears are justified. :-)

[Fumang]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

yup =(

[Mavlyn]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

I'd like to see someone here show some proof that the G3 is supposed to be better than a PKM... I see alot of comparisons between these two weapons, but it is nothing but alot of assuming when it comes to people declaring that the G3 should be better than the PKM..

Okay, first off, you need to compare the cartridges they are firing; the G3A3 fires the 7.62x51mm NATO round, whereas the PKM fires the 7.62x54mm Russian round.

The 7.62 NATO was developed from the .30 cal, standardized for all of NATO after WWII. This was done under much pressure from the USA, which irked alot of it's European allies, who wanted a smaller cartridge. The 7.62 NATO was used in the FAL series, the G3/CETME series, the FN MAG, the M14/21, and numerous other designs into the mid-sixties. Today, it is still used in such guns as the M240 (FN MAG!), M24 sniper rifle, M40 sniper rifle, and the G3. It is capable of striking Able sized targets.

The 7.62R was developed in the late 1800s, for use in the Mosin-Nagaunt rifles. It was used as the standard Russian (then Soviet) rifle bullet into WWII. This rimmed cartridge was replaced by the 7.62x39mm AK round, and then the 5.45mm, but it remains in use in the Dragunov line, and in the PK series of GPMGs (like the PKM). This round is capable of striking man sized targets at sniper ranges (this is inferior to the Able targets of the NATO round).

The difference in the two lies in sniper doctrine. The NATO doctrine, drawn from the US, favors the use of snipers as lone pairs, acting at the battalion level, free ranging to harry and eliminate enemies from extreme range. The Soviet doctrine is to maintain squad Designated Marksmen, who are normal riflemen with better rifles for medium range accurate shooting. Because of this, the NATO round is capable of being used in sniper rifles, while the Soviet round is actually for DMRs, which are less accurate (and usually semi-auto).

Obviously, the PKM and the G3A3 are not using the match grade rounds, but the comparison is still true. Now let's get into the actual design of the firearms:

The G3A3 was originally conceived in the end days of Nazi Germany as the StG45, a prototype from Mauser. It was designed to fire either 7.92x33 or x59, there is debate. The designs were only on paper, or were destroyed in the war. When the war ended, Mauser was broken up by the allies. Several of the Mauser engineers went to Spain, where they built the CETME from the StG45 plans. Meanwhile, Germany purchased the FN FAL in the new 7.62x51mm NATO round, but Fabrique Nationale and the Belgian government reneged on the contract, due to bad relations. Germany needed a domestic battle rifle. The CETME plans and engineers returned to Germany, and the rifle was refined into the Heckler und Koch G3.

Over time, the G3 adapted into different variants, including the later G3A3. Since this is a game, we can only assume that this is an actual H&K G3, not a CETME clone with G3 parts. The difference is quality. A real G3 will cost you an arm and a leg at gun shows, do to the quality of manufacture (match grade), whereas a CETME with cheaper construction is only about $600 (at least at Bill Goodman's Gun and Knife Show). [The G3 design, as a demonstration of its quality, has also been used as the basis of the PSG-1 DMR.]

So, the G3A3 in the game is a modern, match grade variant of one of the world's most accurate assault rifles, firing one of the most accurate cartridges in the modern world.

The PKM is derived from the PK machinegun, designed by Mikhail Kalashnikov (of AK fame) in the mid 1950s. The PKM is a shortened, lightened version of the PK, but it is based upon the AK long stroke piston action. As most of the AK family, it is oriented towards efficiency and simplicity and reliability, not pinpoint accuracy. Furthermore, as a lightened weapon, it is designed to be portable and movable, and suffers more recoil than the tripod PK that started it. As a GPMG, its primary purpose is to surpress at the Company level, giving a field of fire to allow allied units to advance and destroy.

The PKM, then, is a capable and respected GPMG, noted for its reliability udner strain. It is not, however, a sniper rifle, nor a battle rifle. It is designed to surpress and support, not assault and seize.

The Issue is not with the PKM. It is shown as it should be, as a devastating weapon. However, the G3A3 is not shown up to the level it should be. Firing the same round as the M24 and L96A1, it should (in reality), do the same damage. It's accuracy should be comparitive to the Dragunov (SVD). It should deliver the first shot on target at nearly any range shown in Battlefield, but should lose control quickly on automatic (this option is commonly removed from the weapon IRL due to the power of the round). However, this would destabilize the game further, and would result in a counterstrike like autosniper. (Note, the CS D3A3 is a G3A3 with a scope.)

The Solution: None. Balancing the weapons to real life would require a rework of the entire game. The issue in the game lies that one of the weapons (the PKM) is representing close to reality, while the others are not. However, few people would enjoy trading the melee of BF2 for a tactical, OMG-U-DIE real life-style battle.

[SK]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

The issue in the game lies that one of the weapons (the PKM) is representing close to reality, while the others are not.

This is flat out untrue. No one fires an LMG with this accuracy from the crouching, standing or "instaprone" position. From prone, granted, that´s the way it should be.

[Cornbread Mafia]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Okay, first off, you need to compare the cartridges they are firing; the G3A3 fires the 7.62x51mm NATO round, whereas the PKM fires the 7.62x54mm Russian round.

The 7.62 NATO was developed from the .30 cal, standardized for all of NATO after WWII. This was done under much pressure from the USA, which irked alot of it's European allies, who wanted a smaller cartridge. The 7.62 NATO was used in the FAL series, the G3/CETME series, the FN MAG, the M14/21, and numerous other designs into the mid-sixties. Today, it is still used in such guns as the M240 (FN MAG!), M24 sniper rifle, M40 sniper rifle, and the G3. It is capable of striking Able sized targets.

The 7.62R was developed in the late 1800s, for use in the Mosin-Nagaunt rifles. It was used as the standard Russian (then Soviet) rifle bullet into WWII. This rimmed cartridge was replaced by the 7.62x39mm AK round, and then the 5.45mm, but it remains in use in the Dragunov line, and in the PK series of GPMGs (like the PKM). This round is capable of striking man sized targets at sniper ranges (this is inferior to the Able targets of the NATO round).

The difference in the two lies in sniper doctrine. The NATO doctrine, drawn from the US, favors the use of snipers as lone pairs, acting at the battalion level, free ranging to harry and eliminate enemies from extreme range. The Soviet doctrine is to maintain squad Designated Marksmen, who are normal riflemen with better rifles for medium range accurate shooting. Because of this, the NATO round is capable of being used in sniper rifles, while the Soviet round is actually for DMRs, which are less accurate (and usually semi-auto).

Obviously, the PKM and the G3A3 are not using the match grade rounds, but the comparison is still true. Now let's get into the actual design of the firearms:

The G3A3 was originally conceived in the end days of Nazi Germany as the StG45, a prototype from Mauser. It was designed to fire either 7.92x33 or x59, there is debate. The designs were only on paper, or were destroyed in the war. When the war ended, Mauser was broken up by the allies. Several of the Mauser engineers went to Spain, where they built the CETME from the StG45 plans. Meanwhile, Germany purchased the FN FAL in the new 7.62x51mm NATO round, but Fabrique Nationale and the Belgian government reneged on the contract, due to bad relations. Germany needed a domestic battle rifle. The CETME plans and engineers returned to Germany, and the rifle was refined into the Heckler und Koch G3.

Over time, the G3 adapted into different variants, including the later G3A3. Since this is a game, we can only assume that this is an actual H&K G3, not a CETME clone with G3 parts. The difference is quality. A real G3 will cost you an arm and a leg at gun shows, do to the quality of manufacture (match grade), whereas a CETME with cheaper construction is only about $600 (at least at Bill Goodman's Gun and Knife Show). [The G3 design, as a demonstration of its quality, has also been used as the basis of the PSG-1 DMR.]

So, the G3A3 in the game is a modern, match grade variant of one of the world's most accurate assault rifles, firing one of the most accurate cartridges in the modern world.

The PKM is derived from the PK machinegun, designed by Mikhail Kalashnikov (of AK fame) in the mid 1950s. The PKM is a shortened, lightened version of the PK, but it is based upon the AK long stroke piston action. As most of the AK family, it is oriented towards efficiency and simplicity and reliability, not pinpoint accuracy. Furthermore, as a lightened weapon, it is designed to be portable and movable, and suffers more recoil than the tripod PK that started it. As a GPMG, its primary purpose is to surpress at the Company level, giving a field of fire to allow allied units to advance and destroy.

The PKM, then, is a capable and respected GPMG, noted for its reliability udner strain. It is not, however, a sniper rifle, nor a battle rifle. It is designed to surpress and support, not assault and seize.

The Issue is not with the PKM. It is shown as it should be, as a devastating weapon. However, the G3A3 is not shown up to the level it should be. Firing the same round as the M24 and L96A1, it should (in reality), do the same damage. It's accuracy should be comparitive to the Dragunov (SVD). It should deliver the first shot on target at nearly any range shown in Battlefield, but should lose control quickly on automatic (this option is commonly removed from the weapon IRL due to the power of the round). However, this would destabilize the game further, and would result in a counterstrike like autosniper. (Note, the CS D3A3 is a G3A3 with a scope.)

The Solution: None. Balancing the weapons to real life would require a rework of the entire game. The issue in the game lies that one of the weapons (the PKM) is representing close to reality, while the others are not. However, few people would enjoy trading the melee of BF2 for a tactical, OMG-U-DIE real life-style battle.

Excellent comparisons of the G3 and PKM. I thank you for taking the time to answer my question with such detail...:)

I would be in favor of increasing the accuracy of other weapons..

[Mavlyn]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Excellent comparisons of the G3 and PKM. I thank you for taking the time to answer my question with such detail...:)

I would be in favor of increasing the accuracy of other weapons..

No problems! I enjoy being a resident gun guru.

[Mavlyn]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

This is flat out untrue. No one fires an LMG with this accuracy from the crouching, standing or "instaprone" position. From prone, granted, that´s the way it should be.

PKM standing is horrid, but it should be worse, granted.
Crouching, you could be bracing cross-thigh, for relatively good shooting. The models in BF2 can't show this, however.

[Sweetmate]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Once the game is balanced 90% of people will stop complaining.

Yeah right, the day only 10% of Battlefield players complain is the day I confess I'm Robin Williams the sniper.