The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Sure, don´t let your little fantasy get destroyed by actual gameplay. How about you just try out the PKM once instead of the assault rifles? You´ll be embarrassed just how accurate it is.
The positive thing is that most people don´t know that the PKM has only 500 m/s muzzle velocity and a thus much higher bullet drop than the other guns, making their bullets fall short sometimes.

I actually don't use the assualt rifles much anymore because I ma focusing on the other weapons. I know that the support is accurate now, but many of you are blowing it way out of proportion. It isn't a godly weapon like you say, it is just that you guys don't know how to combat it and probably suck at the game anyway. I could rack up kills with it before 1.2 and can now after. It is a good weapon, but it isn't the "WMD" you guys are making it out to be.

[PHPT]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

The Issue[/B] is not with the PKM. It is shown as it should be, as a devastating weapon. However, the G3A3 is not shown up to the level it should be. Firing the same round as the M24 and L96A1, it should (in reality), do the same damage.

It's accuracy should be comparitive to the Dragunov (SVD). It should deliver the first shot on target at nearly any range shown in Battlefield

Not exactly. From a realism standpoint, sniper rifles have a longer barrel than most ARs to increase muzzle velocity and accuracy. They are calibrated more precisely and have to meet a much more stringent accuracy standard.

If you want to argue damage by caliber, perhaps the .50 BMG used in the M95 should kill you so bad that you die again when a medic revives you?

The accuracy mechanics on the other hand are FAR, FAR more influenced by balance than realism. Pistols are far more accurate in reality, the AK rifles far less, and you'd have to kick someone in the arm while they were pulling the trigger to get the kind of inaccuracy sniper rifles have while not zoomed.

The Solution: None. Balancing the weapons to real life would require a rework of the entire game. The issue in the game lies that one of the weapons (the PKM) is representing close to reality, while the others are not.

No, reality shouldn't even be a part of the discussion. While things that are grossly unrealistic skew the sense of immersion (why isn't my grenade tipping that claymore over?), the vast majority of the player base has no real idea how those guns work in real life, the vast majority of the people that do only care about unrealism when they die to it, and the rest are playing Full Spectrum Warrior or some other boring over-realistic simulator.

[Mavlyn]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Not exactly. From a realism standpoint, sniper rifles have a longer barrel than most ARs to increase muzzle velocity and accuracy. They are calibrated more precisely and have to meet a much more stringent accuracy standard.

Mostly for accuracy. Beyond 10", the differences you're going to attain in velocity are minimal. Besides, the excess velocity isn't going to help the terminal ballistics any. Unless the cartridge can exceed an impact velocity of ~4000 fps, you're not going to see any sufficient hydrodynamic shock to surpass wound channel as the surest guarantor of the kill, and I don't see anyone toting .700 Nitros in BF2. The G3 would deal damage on par with the M24, except at extreme range, when the match ammo would come into play, but I already discounted that, as the sniper rifles in BF2 are obviously NOT using match ammo. (min dev.... cough.)

If you want to argue damage by caliber, perhaps the .50 BMG used in the M95 should kill you so bad that you die again when a medic revives you?

While amusing, this would break game balance. And, all damage is by caliber. Unless you're shortening the barrel of a weapon so far that the round is getting nerfed by velocity and squibbing out of the gun, it's all about cartridge. I hate the video game logic that says, "The G36 does more damage than the M16." It's the same goddamn cartridge, it does the same goddamn thing.

The accuracy mechanics on the other hand are FAR, FAR more influenced by balance than realism. Pistols are far more accurate in reality, the AK rifles far less, and you'd have to kick someone in the arm while they were pulling the trigger to get the kind of inaccuracy sniper rifles have while not zoomed.

I agree with you here. I would have liked to see some Joint Ops like ranging and windage calculations, but that's beyond the arcade sim of BF2, so I just enjoy what I've got.

No, reality shouldn't even be a part of the discussion.

Um, that WAS the discussion I was having with Cornbread Mafia. He asked me to show RL proof why the G3 would be more accurate than the PKM... in real life. I addressed game issues only as a comparison to reality, to show the difference in what is in BF2 and what is IRL.

While things that are grossly unrealistic skew the sense of immersion (why isn't my grenade tipping that claymore over?), the vast majority of the player base has no real idea how those guns work in real life, the vast majority of the people that do only care about unrealism when they die to it, and the rest are playing Full Spectrum Warrior or some other boring over-realistic simulator.

I care, and I happen to love BF2. It's just stupid fun, and I don't expect anything more out of it, but I will gladly clarify when people ask, like CBM did.

[Paas]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Mostly for accuracy. Beyond 10", the differences you're going to attain in velocity are minimal. Besides, the excess velocity isn't going to help the terminal ballistics any. Unless the cartridge can exceed an impact velocity of ~4000 fps, you're not going to see any sufficient hydrodynamic shock to surpass wound channel as the surest guarantor of the kill, and I don't see anyone toting .700 Nitros in BF2. The G3 would deal damage on par with the M24, except at extreme range, when the match ammo would come into play, but I already discounted that, as the sniper rifles in BF2 are obviously NOT using match ammo. (min dev.... cough.)

Correct... to a degree. Match/Mass-Produced rounds aren't the "logical" factor in the minimum deviation in the game; at least I don't think. I think EA/Dice basically skimmed over the idea of scope drift (Heart Rate, Breathing, Switching, Nerves, etc).

...then again, I could be wrong too. Yet, it seems the most logical reason to add deviation. A 1moa rifle is a 1moa rifle, it's generally "always" the shooter the determines the field accuracy. As far as my experience tells me, Match ammunition just allows your little notepad to actually have some form of credability.

While amusing, this would break game balance. And, all damage is by caliber. Unless you're shortening the barrel of a weapon so far that the round is getting nerfed by velocity and squibbing out of the gun, it's all about cartridge. I hate the video game logic that says, "The G36 does more damage than the M16." It's the same goddamn cartridge, it does the same goddamn thing.

...I feel your pain. Give EA the benefit of the doubt? Say that maybe the m16 is a 60gr, and the G36c is loaded with a 77gr? I don't know how to explain it myself, I just kinda' shrug and go with with it.

I agree with you here. I would have liked to see some Joint Ops like ranging and windage calculations, but that's beyond the arcade sim of BF2, so I just enjoy what I've got.

While I love J.O.'s system, you're right, it's a tad bit too complicated to fit within' the frantic pace of BF2. I couldn't imagine a sniper having to actually struggle with windage/range/cambe adjustments; only to have someone jump over him and go prone while unloading completely.

Um, that WAS the discussion I was having with Cornbread Mafia. He asked me to show RL proof why the G3 would be more accurate than the PKM... in real life. I addressed game issues only as a comparison to reality, to show the difference in what is in BF2 and what is IRL.

Owning a G3a3 myself, and having fired a K-PK/PKM (Light), I'm going to have to agree. The g3a3 is a tighter weapon (groups). Yet, it's not that far ahead of a PKM (2moa G3 vs. 1-foot PKM), and if you factor in the sheer saturation of fire, the PKM has a better "kill capacity" at range. Even versus almost every assault rifle.

{WP}Paas

[PHPT]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

I hate the video game logic that says, "The G36 does more damage than the M16." It's the same goddamn cartridge, it does the same goddamn thing.

That's the balance aspect coming in to play. You could even say that the damage reduction is an attempt to emulate weapon handling, which is to say that the ergonomics of a weapon would make enough of a difference in shot placement to affect the damage done.

That and I was being sarcastic about the .50 BMG, point is that caliber size is practically irrelevant. The L85A1 does 36% more damage than the G36C with the same cartridge. Reason? Balance.

Um, that WAS the discussion I was having with Cornbread Mafia. He asked me to show RL proof why the G3 would be more accurate than the PKM... in real life. I addressed game issues only as a comparison to reality, to show the difference in what is in BF2 and what is IRL.

My bad, wasn't following the discussion well enough.

I'd still contend with that though, just because of the nature of the guns. The PKM's got a bipod to stabilize it against jitter and such, it's also got about 50% more barrel length. Sniper philosophy aside, I'd imagine that before recoil kicked in, it would be a pretty accurate gun. I'm not pretending to be an expert on this, because I'm not, but the numbers seem to suggest that.

[Mavlyn]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

It's cool, and I wasn't dissing the PKM. I wish I had a chance to fire one (like Paas one post up). Fired multiple CETME/G3s franken-rollers, but never a pure H&K, since I'm a poor college student. And yeah, it's for balance, but I just wish games would find a better way to balance than just reskinning and changing arbitrary stats. Still, I do enjoy the BF2 zaniness. I just put my "Gun Stuff" cap on the computer stand for a while.

Maybe expansive rounds versus armor piercing rounds, or different 'nades. Accuracy would change a little, weapon to weapon, as would handling, but damage would change very little inside of a cartridge. Unless... give me a BAR with Grand Slams...

(If anyone knows what those are... cookies for you!)

[Mavlyn]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Always nice to find another gun guy!

[Paas]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

It's cool, and I wasn't dissing the PKM. I wish I had a chance to fire one (like Paas one post up). Fired multiple CETME/G3s franken-rollers, but never a pure H&K, since I'm a poor college student. And yeah, it's for balance, but I just wish games would find a better way to balance than just reskinning and changing arbitrary stats. Still, I do enjoy the BF2 zaniness. I just put my "Gun Stuff" cap on the computer stand for a while.

Friend of mine owns a CETME. He boast about it all the time...

Maybe expansive rounds versus armor piercing rounds, or different 'nades. Accuracy would change a little, weapon to weapon, as would handling, but damage would change very little inside of a cartridge. Unless... give me a BAR with Grand Slams...

(If anyone knows what those are... cookies for you!)

Lost me on that. Gunna' hafta' look em' up. "Grand Slams"?

{WP}Paas

Edit - 7mm/175gr/2930fps? Correct?

[Mavlyn]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Lost me on that. Gunna' hafta' look em' up. "Grand Slams"?
{WP}Paas

There's a brand out there, but my buddy does reloading, and that's his term for masochisticly high power loads. He likes suffering, aparently, as he also loves shooting his damn shortened Nagaunt. That thing just hurts.

[PHPT]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

I just wish games would find a better way to balance than just reskinning and changing arbitrary stats.

Such as what? And the stats are really a bit more than just arbitrary, they're nowhere near realistic. If anything, the only stat that's really kept on is the firing modes and rounds per clip. The PKM, M249, and L85A1 have firing rates of and 650, 750, and 680 RPM, respectively. In-game... 450, 900, and 600. OKAY!!

Beyond that, everything gets changed and tweaked. How else do you balance a huge amount of weapons which all operate on the same principle of "pull the trigger and it fires (1/3/lots of) bullets unless you run out of ammo or let go of the trigger."

I wouldn't really say it's any better with most other shooters, which literally do the same thing: Cop the ammo/firing modes, MAYBE match the ROF, then tweak the recoil/accuracy/damage figures to no end.

[Mavlyn]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Such as what? And the stats are really a bit more than just arbitrary, they're nowhere near realistic. If anything, the only stat that's really kept on is the firing modes and rounds per clip. The PKM, M249, and L85A1 have firing rates of and 650, 750, and 680 RPM, respectively. In-game... 450, 900, and 600. OKAY!!

Beyond that, everything gets changed and tweaked. How else do you balance a huge amount of weapons which all operate on the same principle of "pull the trigger and it fires (1/3/lots of) bullets unless you run out of ammo or let go of the trigger."

And even the firing modes are crap with some guns. IRL, the P90 has a 900 rpm stat.

Here's how you could balance them:

Reliability, grouping, customization, special ammo types. Most importantly, the classes that used the different guns would play differently. Even if the Stoner-line (M16/M4) rifles/carbines all shot the same, the fact that the different kits had different abilities and stats would make them different, as would customizable SOPMODs like ACOG sights, pistol grips, Beta-C mags (100rds of fun!).

Just a fancy, really. I don't see games going that way, and the forced diversity is cool, but sometimes I just have to stop and go, "Wait, did that just do what I think it did?"

If you really wanted different guns, you'd have to go with something so historically screwy that it would be bizarre, but you could have some people with Bolt Action rifles, some with Machineguns, some with shotguns, one with a G11, and someone with a Metal Storm box (ph34r).

[Leki]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

I know you don't play on Karkand 24/7 Leki, but a lot of people here do who are talking about it being overpowered. Try surviving on a level like Songhua or Dragon Valley and getting massive kills the the MG and you won't unless you are good. The problem is, these noobs play karkand 24/7 and they still don't get that you have to take cover on those kinds of maps. Stop charging down an alley blindly and maybe you won't get slaughtered as much. The only reason support gets a large number of kills on Karkand is because idiots run across the street blindly instead of running from cover to cover with a squad. Maybe if you guys would stay in a squad it wouldn't happen purhapse?

i played those maps with the PKM and still kill infrantry with ease...its just not as easy with support as most people are in APC's etc. The reason support gets large number of kills on karkand is because its an infrantry map and PKM is overpowered in infrantry combat. If they stick in a sqaud its just more kills for me as i mow down the whole squad :)

I think too many of you lone wolf too which will get you killed by the weapon easily as well unless you are either skilled, or have good cover which obviously you guys always neglect. Stop proning out in the open against an MG and maybe you would have a chance.

what ever they do i will still kill them with my PKM....if they get behind some cover i will nade spam them with my unlimited nades :)

And trust me, don't say one weapon is better then another because someone who can actually use the guns correctly will kill you everytime with a weapon other then the support. I kill fine with the assualt on any level, so it is far from inferior compared to the support.

well the PKM is better....obviously player skill comes into it too. you might have just been killing a few noobs who were using the pkm and you would have killed them if they had assault rifles too. but say if 2 players of exact skill played against each other the PKM guy would win.

Get your asses off Karkand and play the whole game and you will see a different experience or maybe get some skill so you would have a chance on Karkand instead of picking sniper like everyone else on the map and trying to stand up against a support.

You can throw all the stats, figures, and other sh*t in here all you want, but that won't help you in the game. Fact is, most people just suck as this game and then they try to find a scientific way why they were killed, back it up with useless facts which change constently in game, and then actually get support from people here which is hilarious.

stats mean everything...its how the game works out the weapon damage, accuracy etc. The fact is that the PKM and MG36 are overpowered in infrantry combat...i know because i use them not because i get killed by them and the weapon stats confirm it.

[Leki]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Yeah right, the day only 10% of Battlefield players complain is the day I confess I'm Robin Williams the sniper.

heh well since patch 1.2 what have all the posts complaining been about.....

PKM and MG36 being overpowered...which they are.
claymores being spammed everywhere which are impossible to get past
AA missiles (i think its mostly better now)

and of course all the bugs

once all those are sorted out things will be lots better and people will just complain about minor things.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

i played those maps with the PKM and still kill infrantry with ease...its just not as easy with support as most people are in APC's etc. The reason support gets large number of kills on karkand is because its an infrantry map and PKM is overpowered in infrantry combat. If they stick in a sqaud its just more kills for me as i mow down the whole squad :)



what ever they do i will still kill them with my PKM....if they get behind some cover i will nade spam them with my unlimited nades :)



well the PKM is better....obviously player skill comes into it too. you might have just been killing a few noobs who were using the pkm and you would have killed them if they had assault rifles too. but say if 2 players of exact skill played against each other the PKM guy would win.



stats mean everything...its how the game works out the weapon damage, accuracy etc. The fact is that the PKM and MG36 are overpowered in infrantry combat...i know because i use them not because i get killed by them and the weapon stats confirm it.

LOL, a few noobs? I have played against a massive ammount of players and I haven't just killed "Noobs." And it also depends what servers you play on. You play on only 64 player servers you will find that support won't only get the top spots. And if I played against a support that was my own skill level and he went prone on me 5 feet away, I would either sprint and run circles around him and shoot him while he is busy spinning around or hop over his body and get behind him since I consider that fair since he is proning, I will just do a little hop over him.

And when support goes prone, it exposes their head which makes it easy for headshots. I don't know who you are playing against, but I wouldn't get easily outsmarted by a support guy who was just spamming nades and sit there. I would shoot him while he is nading.

Like I said before, doesn't matter if Karkand is an infantry map really, it is just that the players are too stupid to not run down the alley with the MG down it. It is like second nature to them now and it just feeds the MG. No gun is overpowered in this game, it is just the players are have poor skill level/training, and don't always use common sense.

Instead of using some good cover or instaproning against a support, he could be shooting at him or running to that cover to get a better shot from.

You guys are making a bigger deal out of this then it really it. The MG does its job which is suppressing fire and if you are not scared of an MG, how is it suppose to do its job? And if you are in a good squad, you won't let one guy with an MG get you. You should also have one in your squad.


No one will ever stop complaing. This community b*tches more then any other probably and they can't just except the game until we all have knifes or something. There are only a few problems now like the claymores, print screenshot, and sniper accuracy. The MG could be toned down a little, but it is fine now since it does it job. If everyone keeps compling, it will be worse then pre 1.2 and won't scare anyone like it did then. People would charge the MGs before, but they actually have to be careful now.

[BRUTALITEEEEEEEEE]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

"This community b*tches more then any other probably and they can't just except the game until we all have knifes or something."

'nuff said!!

The guns are fine. Pick a class, get used to the feel of the gun and how it works and you get better with it. I have killed (lately) quite a few spec-ops or assault guys with that crappy mp5 on the AT kit.

First it was the people who used the supports weapon b******* about how you couldn't hit s*** with it (justified)but you never heard from the guys playing the Spec-ops or Assault. Now the people not using the support are screaming and crying because they walk straight into a wall of bullets and get killed (that's what would happen I think). The cycle is never going to end is it?

Let's just continue to kick the dead dog though....


(I do agree the PKM is just a little much, let's take it down just a notch)