The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

[Cornbread Mafia]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

I'd like to see someone here show some proof that the G3 is supposed to be better than a PKM... I see alot of comparisons between these two weapons, but it is nothing but alot of assuming when it comes to people declaring that the G3 should be better than the PKM..

[PHPT]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Or to say it another way: The PKM totally owns all other weapons when not strafing and moving, from all stances.

No, no, NO! You're completely neglecting the fact that the PKM while moving will ramp up a HUGE amount of inaccuracy, to the point where you have to stand still for quite some time to drop down to acceptable accuracy. You can NOT run-and-gun with it without dropping prone immediately. Firing the PKM standing or even crouched is a bad idea because it leaves you as a still, visible target for way too long.

Only when strafing and moving standing up it reaches an accuracy that is slightly lower than that of the assault rifles.

Slightly lower? The thing sprays, the hit zone becomes about half of your screen area if you run-and-gun.

I´ll repost what I´ve written on the EA UK forums:

yada yada yada

The PKM's vulnerability is in your complete lack of mobility while using it. You can run-and-gun with any other weapon, LMGs become useless for that except at point blank. The fact that you have to go prone to use them acceptably has always been their primary weakness. If you try to run and gun, you'll ramp up too much inaccuracy, and even if you crouch you'll have to wait for about a second before your accuracy even starts to approach acceptable.

And if you want ACCURACY comparisons while standing, why don't you post the stats for the G36 series, which is the real contender for accuracy anyway, or even the L85A1?


Yes, I agree the PKM is overpowered, but you're acting like it's superior to assault rifles in every way, which begs the question, why aren't you using it like one?

[DrJambo]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

PHPT, re-read what SK was saying please.

What SK was saying, and I've highlighted the critical part, was:

Or to say it another way: The PKM totally owns all other weapons when not strafing and moving, from all stances.

So, in otherwords, the PKM remains more accurate in all instances, unless strafing while moving. The stats from the file don't lie and I wish people would reference these when stating what clearly appears to be opinions on weapon accuracies (which are probably based on 1.12).

To say the PKM's weakness is its lack of mobility is rather unusual considering that almost every other class ALSO goes prone to shoot. THe assault rifles aren't any good strafing while moving either, and if both kits were doing this in a firefight it becomes an exercise in spray and pray for both. Bearing in mind the PKM has 100 ammo to the G3's 20, the assault kit is relying on a good degree of luck.

I feel the whole thing could be improved a little if the time taken to go prone, deploy your weapon and obtain prone accuracy was increased. The baalnce would then be restored a little. As it is with the insta-dive/prone still very much possible - going prone and obtaining prone accuracy is all too easy.

[HABO3]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

I agree with Dead EYE! The PKM has a bipod and should be somewhat accurate at least on the first round. These are heavy barreled weapons designed to kill you very quickly. That is why their are M203 and grenades. Hell in WW2, a good machine gun nest could keep a whole platoon pinned down. This is war you should be killed very quickly if you are a Rambo, and rushing around in the open.

I would agree entirely with this if...

the whole thing could be improved a little if the time taken to go prone, deploy your weapon and obtain prone accuracy was increased. The baalnce would then be restored a little. As it is with the insta-dive/prone still very much possible - going prone and obtaining prone accuracy is all too easy.

this were the case but it is not and even though I'm a support player all day all the way going instaprone looks dumb and gives way to ridiculous gameplay tactics that allow machine gunners to charge foward like rifleman and there should be limitations that would make the player NOT want to do that but instead hold position and wait for the enemy to pop out not all this running around maniacally instaproning in front of enemies 5 meters away.

[Sweetmate]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Karkand-only noobs will bitch and moan about whatever kills them the most. And right now thats the pkm because MORE PEOPLE ARE USING IT. Not because its the best gun in the game, but because its had a slight improvement and everyone is using it more. Same goes for claymores, the new rifle and improved sniper accuracy means that there are way more snipers about so you are more likely to be killed with a claymore.

Pre 1.03 it was blackhawks, then pre 1.2 it was attack helos and jets. If the noobs keep moaning eventually BF2 will be a knives-only infantry only game, with no weapons or vehicles whatsoever. Then noobs will moan that the knife is way too powerful.

[DrJambo]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Sweetmate, your post is a clear example of opinion without fact. This means in terms of credibility it doesn't have much. You say the PKM has been slightly improved, where in actual fact it's been massively improved. Its minimum deviation has gone from 0.8 to 0.1 and that alone is a factor of 8 better! This has major ramifications for gun accuracy at all the positions - standing, crouching, prone and zoom.

[Berrern]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

PKM rips through Blackhawks like Butter .

Not entirely correct; a Blackhawk with full "health" takes 400 PKM bullets before it explodes..

[Cornbread Mafia]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

I still don't see anything being presented that says a PKM has to be less accurate than an assault rifle... Any argument stating that the PKM needs to be less accurate than an assault rifle, without support, is just stating opinion. And therefore has no real basis for argument, other than a person expressing their opinion...

That means, the deviation values and what have you, mean absolutely nothing without some proof supporting the opinion that a PKM is less accurate than any of the assault rifles in the game..

It appears also that the only assault rifle really worse than the PKM is the G3. I believe the G3 just isn't as good a weapon as the PKM..

[TriggerHappy2005]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

I think the problem lies (no pun intended) in the fact that going prone is too easy. If a player with a PKM rounds a corner and sees you, he should'nt be able to dive into third base like Pete Rose and start firing automatically. There should be a delay in going prone, so that by doing it you really commit yourself to that position. Bottom line is that Support Class is not a run and gun type position. Make going prone take up to one second so there's that slight delay. This way if you're laying in wait in the prone position then you should reap the rewards for your commitment to that position and if you round the corner against a spec ops guy then you reap the bad fruit for your poor decision to run and gun with the wrong class.

[SQUiB]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

I think the problem lies (no pun intended) in the fact that going prone is too easy. If a player with a PKM rounds a corner and sees you, he should'nt be able to dive into third base like Pete Rose and start firing automatically. There should be a delay in going prone, so that by doing it you really commit yourself to that position. Bottom line is that Support Class is not a run and gun type position. Make going prone take up to one second so there's that slight delay. This way if you're laying in wait in the prone position then you should reap the rewards for your commitment to that position and if you round the corner against a spec ops guy then you reap the bad fruit for your poor decision to run and gun with the wrong class.

The simple and obvious solution that DICE will never implement. Although 1 second prone time sounds a bit harsh to me, maybe 1/2 a second would be enough.

[DrJambo]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

I still don't see anything being presented that says a PKM has to be less accurate than an assault rifle... Any argument stating that the PKM needs to be less accurate than an assault rifle, without support, is just stating opinion. And therefore has no real basis for argument, other than a person expressing their opinion...

That means, the deviation values and what have you, mean absolutely nothing without some proof supporting the opinion that a PKM is less accurate than any of the assault rifles in the game..

It appears also that the only assault rifle really worse than the PKM is the G3. I believe the G3 just isn't as good a weapon as the PKM..

Well of course it is - it's an opinion on balance...

The stats prove that the PKM is one of the best, if not the best, guns for actually assaulting enemy positions. Running into a group of enemy soldiers, dropping instantly to prone and ripping multiple targets to shreads isn't difficult to do post-1.2. There's little forethought really required and if anything it's the assault and AT troops who have to be far more tactical about their approach into enemy positions.

The PKM (and MG36) needs to be less accurate than the assault rifles mainly for a balance reason. Support guns have 100+ ammo and therefore care and consideration of ammo in a firefight isn't of critical concern. For assault rifles, ammo can and often is critical. A gun that has more ammo per clip, has more damage per bullet and more accuracy in all positions other than when strafing should be raising eyebrows in terms of imbalance....

On top of all this we're also forgetting that the support kit has a secondary function of supplying ammo, one that will give the user a substantial number of teampoints each round - something again which the assault or AT kits can't compete with. As the kit name would imply, "support" should really be providing support for the assault and AT kits and not replacing them as the primary assaulting kit.


The stats speak for themselves and my opinions are based on them.

[TriggerHappy2005]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

The simple and obvious solution that DICE will never implement. Although 1 second prone time sounds a bit harsh to me, maybe 1/2 a second would be enough.

Yeah the 1 second delay isn't written in stone but just a concept. nice to see someone else sees the simplicity in fixing problems in BF2.

[markan dorka]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

hello

this really is troublesome issue .. pre 1.2, say what you say, but support as a class was way underpowered. It had the least accurate gun, and that gun gained more deviation after each shot than any other gun (i dunno about shotties and snipers, but that's irrelevant). Also, ammo packs aren't really critical, as for example medikits, wrench or AT rockets are. If I run out of ammo, odds are that there is either crate nearby, or I just can go on and pick another kit with full ammo .. having a support around would've helped, but overall the team would've been better with some other class instead. There's no question about whether or not the upgrade was needed.

Now, the PKM and MG36 are overpowered. (I'll just refer to them now when I'm talking about support) It's really good when standing, amazing when crouched, and pinpoint accurate when proned when you use it as semi auto rifle - just tap away the 45 dmg shots and charge. some ARs and carbines might be slightly more accurate when standing + zoomed, but honestly, who zooms in in those closish-combat charge situations while standing. And crouching delay is very short, if you crouch, support becomes most accurate again.

It (at least yet) doesn't ruin the game balance, because there's bunch of other overpowered stuff you can wreck the lmgs with, especially in average 64 player enviroment .. but I feel that currently people haven't really spent time in "breaking" the gun, they mostly use it as they used it pre-patch and fail to see that it has potential for much more. I don't play matches, so I have no clue how it works in controlled enviroment, such as 8v8 matches, so don't flame for possible ignorance, but rather tell me how it does work there.

I really prefer gameplay and balance over realism, but I want some checks and balances, and the classes to be unique and different instead of just all classes dumped roughly in same mold. Yes, I'd like to see support as feared class, but not in a way that it just does same things as every other class does, but better .. the idea behind upgrade was good - but improving base accuracy 8-fold screwed up the standing/crouch modifiers, and it didn't quite work out as (I guess how) it was planned.

What I would've liked to see, is that support had sort of assault rifle accuracy when proned (bit better, something like 0.25 after mods, 0.2 with ironsights?), and higher than AR while standing / crouching (high mods, kinda like they are now) .. but lower the "added deviation / shot" even more - so that support can spit out more lead accurately, for example something like 0.05 / shot (ignore the numbers, typed them in just as example). Then it'd be unique and hopefully balanced.

[Fellblade]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

That means, the deviation values and what have you, mean absolutely nothing without some proof supporting the opinion that a PKM is less accurate than any of the assault rifles in the game..

Cornbread Mafia, you appear to be talking about weapon comparisons in real life.

THe SUpport weapons are not accurate when having to follow targets ...

This is false. They loose accuracy when strafing. When you move the mouse, their accuracy does not change.

[Leeus]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

You guys are forgeting about the support class glitch. It's still there. So no. It's not the noob gun, because noobs won't put up with something that won't work 100% of the time.