The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

[RingPirate]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

I wouldn't want to be in EA's hide. Guess they can't please everybody. If you can't kill PKM guys you're a noob. Sorry but it's that simple. It's been stated before but since nothing will change your mind and you'll go on and on crying about the PKM being uber just use it yourself for god's sake. Then you won't be able to say it's so unbalanced if you suck.

[TexRoadkill]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

I've played a lot of support in the past and spent a few hours with the new patch. I can't say I've noticed any huge increase overall kills with any of the LMGs. They are still suppression weapons for the most part.

I don't really understand what all the fuss is about. The only increase in kills I've noticed is because of the jump/fire change it's easier to shoot people since they aren't hopping around like crazy. I wonder if most of the complainers are just bunny hoppers or dolphin divers who have been nerfed?

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Didn't I just post in a topic like this earlier today? *scratches head*

http://www.totalbf2.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58829

Nobody's complaining about the 'support guns', they're complaining about the PKM and MG36, which just happen to be support guns. I can't think of one post complaining about the SAW, Type-95, or RPK. Why do you suppose that is?

~Wolfgang

[WAAASSSUUUPP]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

I like the upgrade, but I find that support is too overused, I loved being like the only support on my team pre-patch, I would get so many ammo points.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Go fire any gun and watch the devfiation increase while moving the gun side to side; this is very noticeable while using the crosshairs, as the crosshair spread as you move the gun side to side, strafe.... So my point is not bogus...

Actually your point is pretty bogus like he says. If you strafe you have a much greater chance of surviving against a support with any gun including the SMGs. It doesn't matter that you aren't hitting him as much or you could actually, but it is rather that he can't hit you while he is prone since he has to swing around which is combersome and gives you more time to hit him.

I kind of feel like the G3 is becoming a noobs weapon now since it is so easy to fire like the G36C, but does more damage and comes with armor and everyone is using it. All the weapons are fine now, but people have to learn to stop ramboing unless you can take it and instead stay in a squad or get behind some good cover and fight. You don't have to worry about the stupid support gunner that went prone in the middle of nowhere and is firing blindly when you are behind a bunch of standbags. The guys that pick support generally look for an advantage and they will get that with the gun since most people can't counter it or they just get lucky with it. Don't give them that advantage by going out into the open, but try moving from cover to cover and get them to go prone and strafe around them.

What we should really be worrying about is the ammount of snipers and claymores now. I saw it coming when I saw the pre patch notes long ago about the sniper upgrade. People are just abusing the weapon like the AWP in CSS now and most don't even get that many points, kills, or benefit the team that much. I saw half my team at one point be snipers on Wake I think, and it just became rediculous then. And not being able to destory a claymore makes them invinsible if they are on a pearch with only one way up. They need to change the sniper class back completely since it had nothing wrong with it before and instead it was just the players that were messing up the game.

O, and in another post, the topic starter stated a good point. If all you guys do is play Karkand, then of course the PKM is going to be more useful and powerful there since people are just randoming running down a bottlenecked ally waiting to be slaughtered 24/7.

[Digital-Boy]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Nobody's complaining about the 'support guns', they're complaining about the PKM and MG36, which just happen to be support guns. I can't think of one post complaining about the SAW, Type-95, or RPK. Why do you suppose that is?

Because they can't hit with three of three shots at 50 meters for 45 damage a pop?

[Bkelso8]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

I've played a lot of support in the past and spent a few hours with the new patch. I can't say I've noticed any huge increase overall kills with any of the LMGs. They are still suppression weapons for the most part.

I don't really understand what all the fuss is about. The only increase in kills I've noticed is because of the jump/fire change it's easier to shoot people since they aren't hopping around like crazy. I wonder if most of the complainers are just bunny hoppers or dolphin divers who have been nerfed?

Bingo. Tex, this is my experience - having played plenty of support pre and post-patch. Is it better now? Yes. Can you own the field? No. Assault class still has better rate of fire and higher accuracy in all but zoomed & prone modes. Makes sense to me. The fact that you just get killed more often post-patch with the PKM (or the SAW or the MG36) is just evidence that the game is more balanced now - not UBER for support.

[Thirdeyez]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Muahaha i knew it!!!
All those hours as support carrying my big inaccurate killingmachien has paid off!!
#44 in LMG kills and also named after the PKM!!!
bow down muhahahaha!!!...
Ok..really tho, its long over due, after more hours and kills behind the PKM then most of you can shake a stick at, it was a completely horrible gun to master..
Now that i mastered the old version of the PKM I am now a golden god!!! muahahaha.

[sidtherat]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

PKM is overpowered

if you cant see it, it is because you are using it the old, 1.12 way, a noobish way - poit and click until target drops - it isnt so much better than 1.12 to brag about

so whats wrong with pkm? well.. try multiple single shots - tap tap tap - you can kill a sniper, you can take bh gunners down - just dont hold that trigger

real problem with pkm is the FIRST shot - in any position, the first shot is DEAD ON accurate - i tell you this, just because, if situation reaches the borders of absurd dice is hopefuly going to do something with it

how to make a dead enemy: spot him, place the crosshairs on target [no need for zoom, it does modyfy the recoil, but we go single shots] - tap [hit] tap [hit] tap [hit]

PKMmasta [pkm] world

pkm kills should be worht .5 point now

[rombaft]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

when standing up, a G3 or every other assault weapon is still way more acurate , the PKm and stuff have way more recoil, can't be used when walking or anything else , the support weapons have become very good , this is true, but at medium to far distance, I will drop any support guy with an assault rifle , and in close combat every support guy will go down with the G3

also UBAR seems to be down at this moment, but I am shure this list is wrong, the suppoort weapons have a min deviation of 3 when standing up , while the assault rifles have 1.5-2 deviation when standing up .

Also before posting something, test something in practice yourself, take an Assault rifle, stand 30 feet from the wall and shoot some bullets at it, with an assault rifle you will be able to put all bullets over the first bullet whole perfectly , with a support rifle standing up, well, just try, you will find out they are way less acurate then the assault rifles

[afrosheen]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Well, until EA/Dice gives us other game modes, tickets are the only way to win. I'd welcome a change of pace other than 100% capture the flag.

[PHPT]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

I agree with Dead EYE! The PKM has a bipod and should be somewhat accurate at least on the first round. These are heavy barreled weapons designed to kill you very quickly. That is why their are M203 and grenades. Hell in WW2, a good machine gun nest could keep a whole platoon pinned down. This is war you should be killed very quickly if you are a Rambo, and rushing around in the open.

BF2 is not war, it's a video game.... about war...

And quite frankly, running in Rambo-style with the PKM is the best way to floor 4 people on flag defense. It's THE best gun for defense-smashing.

The PKM should have slightly-better-than-G36 accuracy prone, balanced by the fact that your accuracy any other time is terrible, and the recoil is already so bad that you have to wait quite some time between shots. The whole reason the accuracy buff was done in the first place was because BF2 is really heavy on long-range fighting and support was the only kit where your ability to shoot anything out of shotgun distance was terrible. Even engineers got the MP7.

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

when standing up, a G3 or every other assault weapon is still way more acurate , the PKm and stuff have way more recoil, can't be used when walking or anything else , the support weapons have become very good , this is true, but at medium to far distance, I will drop any support guy with an assault rifle , and in close combat every support guy will go down with the G3

Correction: You will drop any support guy with an AR at medium-far distance unless he has the PKM or MG36. Those two guns are more accurate than ANYTHING other than sniper rifles when prone.

also UBAR seems to be down at this moment, but I am shure this list is wrong, the suppoort weapons have a min deviation of 3 when standing up , while the assault rifles have 1.5-2 deviation when standing up .

No, the PKM has a deviation modifier of 3 while standing. To find actual devation while standing, multiply the standing mod by the minimum deviation. In the PKM's case it's .3 (3 standing mod x .1 minimum deviation). And in case you're interested, .3, the PKM's standing deviation, is less than the prone deviation of the G3, AK47, AK101, and F2000.

~Wolfgang

[MrBenis]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

Maybe you losers should stop playing Karkand. Think of all the crunch points that place has? No wonder infantry get raped.

[SK]

Re: The new 1.2 Support kit - facts and figures:

THe data above is incomplete.. As the last two entries show, the deviation of the PKm increase dramatically whne ever the gun moves. And moving the gun is a necessity when following alot of targets in BF2....

Not when the gun moves, but when the player moves. And that "dramatic increase" still gets you higher accuracy than with the G3 in the same situation. That just shouldn´t be the case.

THe SUpport weapons are not accurate when having to follow targets or STRAFE, while the lighter, smaller assult rifles really gain an advatage when fired while strafing...

Or to say it another way: The PKM totally owns all other weapons when not strafing and moving, from all stances. Only when strafing and moving standing up it reaches an accuracy that is slightly lower than that of the assault rifles.

I can imagine that a single shot fired from a PKM could be rather accurate.. It is a long barreled rifle in a sense, and has solid weight to counter recoil from the same 7.62 round that the lighter G3 fires..

First off, to nitpick: The PKM uses 7.62X54R, while the G3 uses 7,62X51 NATO :p
Of course it is good (in terms of realism and gameplay) to have the support guns deliver accurate fire. But that´s only from the prone position, and not instantly the second you´re prone. Everyone who tried firing a 10kg+ LMG from standing can attest to the accuracy not being optimal.

I wouldn't want to be in EA's hide. Guess they can't please everybody. If you can't kill PKM guys you're a noob. Sorry but it's that simple. It's been stated before but since nothing will change your mind and you'll go on and on crying about the PKM being uber just use it yourself for god's sake. Then you won't be able to say it's so unbalanced if you suck.

I´ll repost what I´ve written on the EA UK forums:
Most people don´t complain because they get constantly owned by the PKM, but because the PKM is the best projectile weapon bar none and everyone can own pretty easy with it. There´s just no justification to use assault guns anymore.
The PKM
-has sniper like accuracy when prone
-has accuracy equal or better than assault guns when prone and crouching
-has practically unlimited ammo
-kills in 3 hits

All this means that assault guns and carbines are at a severe disadvantage, leading to a disproportional number of people using the support guns. Of course this is not inherently unfair, because everyone can use them and exploit their great stats.
I and many others think it´s bad style to have one gun own to own them all. Every kit/gun should have it´s niche were it´s good, as it is now the PKM is the undisputed king, from long range to close range, from prone to standing. It just takes away from the game to make the other guns useless.

when standing up, a G3 or every other assault weapon is still way more acurate , the PKm and stuff have way more recoil

No matter how often you repeat this mantra, which was true pre 1.2, it is now obsolete and untrue.

Also before posting something, test something in practice yourself, take an Assault rifle, stand 30 feet from the wall and shoot some bullets at it, with an assault rifle you will be able to put all bullets over the first bullet whole perfectly , with a support rifle standing up, well, just try, you will find out they are way less acurate then the assault rifles

I did this and hit with the PKM just fine, thank you. Unlike other people though I don´t stop at using my "experience", which is always flawed by selective perception, but have a look at the gamefiles. It´s all there really, there isn´t much to discuss about. Look into you objects_server.zip and you´ll find the gun data and all the modifiers. Do some calculations and you´ll see that the support unlocks are indeed really accurate from standing and crouching too.