Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

[WarGimp]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

He Has Adapted, He's Still Better Than Everyone, Get It Through Your Head.

Get this though your head... you are a useless poster.
If you wanna come talk to the adults, act like an adult. Spouting off and acting all "cyber-thug" doesn't make you cool. Infact, it just makes you look like and idiotic child with poor developmental skills.

I haven't even questioned PW's abilities to do what he does. I question his ability to just get over it an play in a new set of dynamics that many other skilled pilots don't have a problem with.

Beyond that, I'm not interested in all this planes vs infantry BS. I'm interested in the mechanics of a game that I happen to be a fan of.

Clear?
Good, now STFU and STFD, 'cause no one wants to hear your yap running.

http://www.totalbf2.com/forums/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=27463

[[GU]LIZARD{GEN}]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Hes not whining its not like the guy sucks Wargimp. If he sucked then yeah you can say whining. Hes good... Heres a video hes done before. I just don't go to every thread calling people a whiner. I still rack up kills in the helicopter. Last night I got 40 and 0 on KubraDam in the Cobra. I still don't think the AA is right. If you think its right then I do not see how or why. I have an opinion so does he. He didn't say everyone has to agree as you can see alot of people don't. Adapting isn't the problem here its unrealistic to see a missile spin around the back up your plane and then hit you, or around your helicopter for that matter. Its unrealistic that a PK can snipe someone accross the map. Thats my opinion. I use to get ****ed when people called me a whiner because I feel somethings wrong it don't really bother me now.

In this thread people agree and some disagree. I just don't see why its "OMG your a whiner". No one post civil no more. It always comes to someone bashing someone else. It just gets tiring when that happens and already just looking at some of the previous post I see that has happend here. He did a video he posted up what he felt and thought about the game, and people bashed him for it. Kind of lame, since he is good.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4410746821683444789&q=Planewhore

[inf4my]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

How am I acting cyber thug? You're saying things that make no sense, and I'm pointing them out. I'm not threatening to beat you up, or get my "boys" after you.

You said that PW refuses to adapt, and I'm saying that he HAS adapted, and then some. He was awesome in 1.12, and he's awesome in 1.2, nothing has changed.

Why should he be looked down on just for expressing his opinion about something that is true.

[tsh2005]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

why people argue over it? it is dead.. no skill pros vs avg players doesnt matter

lets end the topic beacuse no one is posting any important information its all the same stuff posted already ten times or more. its probably going to be changed again like many other things

[WarGimp]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Hes not whining its not like the guy sucks Wargimp. If he sucked then yeah you can say whining.

I guess it depends on what you consiter whining.

Endlessly complaining without consitering the other end of the argument, or contibuting to the discussion is what I'd call whining.

I also tend to find his attitude somewhat unpalletable. Just because you happen to be skilled at a certain aspect of a game doesn't qualify you as being an authority in the art of game mechanics. Being able to consiter all aspects of what's going on, the marketability of the system, and the impact of any ajustment made is what makes for a good designer.

Actually, I mentioned something in another thread just now that applies to this one (I'm shocked at myself for not bringing it up before).

Has anyone stopped to consiter that maybe the "noobification" of air to air is intentional?

Noobs and casual gamers make or break games in the market. There's a hella lot more of 'em than us hardcore fans. When something in a game is hard to deal with, it tends to put off the people just coming into it. They try the demo, get owned, say screw this, and walk away. Casual players are likely to just give up when it takes uber skill to do things.

Yup, the hardcore fans don't like this concept much, but it remains true.
Noob friendly games outsell games that cator to highly skilled players.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Actually Wargimp, he has contributed a lot more than most of the people in this thread. Its actually you ignoring it and still calling it whining. If we use the same method, Im calling you a whiner about our whining, because it applies 100% here. He HAS added to the discussion, but all he gets is "egoidiot" "retard" "moron" whatnot, and many, many of them come from you. Now you better tell me where have you been an ADULT here, because I cant see it. Seriously man, youre so selfcontradicting that it hurts and tickles in the same time. At least youre fun to talk to.

Now.

Ah ha!
"If there would have been a competent pilot flying the J-10, Wargimp would have been screwed."
Thus, a more skilled pilot would have been able to hang on my tail and down me. "Skilled", as in it requires skill. In this case, my skills (as sad as they are) were able to over come those of my opponent despite him have advantages in both his asset (the J-10) and the tactical situation (I futzed up and gave him my tail).

Sorry, Chris, but you inadvertantly underlined my point.

LOL. Heres a thing- a pilot who just got in a plane, and you ditched him after your hundreds of hours of experience. Its a FACT that your skills took him out, but I would bite my tongue before I would use the same example. Fact is, your method couldnt have given you a shake off that J-10 that easily. My theory is that what happened, was similar to F35B vs MiG dogfight, where a faster plane whooshes past a slower plane in a sharp turn. Thats why F35B looses againsta MiG without throttle control.
But the problem was, J-10 is still superior in the turn, so you got a rookie pilot behind you and thats it.
Sure, your skills took him down, not disagreeing, but I dont believe he was a worthy opponent to begin with.

Never, ever, ever, should a weapon grant you a 100% kill rate. Never, ever, ever, should you rely on a key, rather than skills in a game if you wish to survive. This is a game, in game, experience and skills must prevail. Experience and skills muct give you the edge in survival.

About people dissing PlaneWhores bombing video. The whole point of that video was "how to attack ground targets". Youre barking under the wrong tree.

[[GU]LIZARD{GEN}]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Whats to consider when its his opinion? Hes arguing his OPINION. Its not a hard concept to understand. I see what hes saying.

[WarGimp]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Actually Wargimp, he has contributed a lot more than most of the people in this thread. Its actually you ignoring it and still calling it whining. If we use the same method, Im calling you a whiner about our whining, because it applies 100% here. He HAS added to the discussion, but all he gets is "egoidiot" "retard" "moron" whatnot, and many, many of them come from you. Now you better tell me where have you been an ADULT here, because I cant see it. Seriously man, youre so selfcontradicting that it hurts and tickles in the same time. At least youre fun to talk to.

Glad ta provide some entertainment.
:p

But no, I don't agree.
Ya see, in 1.12 I didn't like the system much. I felt it was broken simply by the fact that planes were so untouchable that it wasn't worth your time to even attempt to shoot 'em down. PW even said as much. Why go after one measly air to air kill when you could be wracking 'em up by bombing defenceless ground targets? That said, I never made a single "This sucks because" post. I never got grumpy about it on these forums because I believe in working within the system I'm handed. I did make a few comments on how to imporve things... and presented a rather lengthy thread about using proximiaty detonated AAM warheads to help reduce the stress of missile tracking.

I make the ocassional snarky post when I feel it's warrented. Nothing more, nothing less. I actually bite down on quite a bit and do a hefty amount of self editing. My feelings towards PW are colored by outside content. Maybe that's not a good thing, but whatever. If you don't want to be branded as and arse, don't act like an arse.

As to me being one sided, that's blatently un-true. Have you forgotten those diagrams 'n stuff that I did up in an attempt to explain one way to improve the system? Yeah, I did those because I am willing to think about both sides of the equasion.

So... yeah, you can say whatcha like, but I'm actually interested in discussing this thing from a design point of view. Do check out my above comment about how noobification is a good thing for the health of a franchise.

[tsh2005]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

when was it hard to follow someone? You can see all views and can see the trace of when he turns.. You dont have to stay on the persons tail for long.. 3 secs you lock.. and you have a very large view of the battle field so even if the person is making all these turns you can still see them and have time to lock on doesnt matter how good.. Sure its hard sometimes..you lost the person while in the air but the battle field isnt very big for jets.. you can re spot them in 2 secs then lock on again to fire. If there was no limit to how high you go this would be nice

dont understand...

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

No, youve been protecting the dogfights on 1.2 pathc, thats the point. PW has agreed that STA is manageble, he doesnt agree that it should take "2clickstokill" method to take down someone, and neither do I. Thats his main point and I support skill based victory over an opponent aswell.
But like your diagrams wont change DICEs minds, our disagreement wont either. In the end, its just a thread made for entertainment purposes. So why call names?

People who complained about vastly superior air power that left them no chance for survival (lets apply maths later), most of the stats of those persons show their ultmate devotion to Karkand and tanks. In the end its just a pot yelling at a kettle.

70 kills a round/32 players= ~2 deaths each. So in the end, by pure maths you die 2-3 times a round by a jet. Hell, a tank has raped my guts many times more when theres a heated battle at the flag. In the end its just score-envy. Nothing more, nothing less. A pilot bombs obvious targets.

Control points: Areas around the flag, center of the control point, AA under use

Vehicles: green boxes, which, let me remind you, were supposed to be bombed. Why else were the green ATS boxes on the HUD placed?

N00bification never gave a game much lifetime. Granted, some games really are too tough, but its the publicity that sells. BF2 sells because of its variety, not its skill level. It may make some players quit, but the money is already made. BF2 isnt a niche product either. It has been designed as the king of all FPSs and so is its appearance.

Ive switched sides so many times regarding the AA and STA, but in the end my opinion is still this- A pilot must have a chance post launch if the countermeasures are deployed. If it takes MORE than a simple turn, so be it. What you cn do, IMO, is adjust the speed, thats it.

1.2 missiles- slow them down and give them less fuel time- gives a jet a possibility to outmaneuver, really outmaneuver a missile. Proper use of game bugs will become a trend (no speed limit at vertical climb, +100 knots speed limit at vertical altitude drop) (Also think "Behind Enemy Lines")

1.12 missiles- speed them up. Missiles position can now be estimated better. An AAer can hit a plane before it makes a turn more successfully.

In the end it doesnt mean anything, Im anti- 1.2 missiles as they currently stand. I´m pro dogfights that took maneuvering and searching for missile opportunities. Anyone saying that missiles didnt hit a jet, which maneuvered is talking crap. All you have to do is to wait for an opportunity, or create a series of them by bleeding the enemy out of its afterburners.

And no Wargimp, staying on my ground and not agreeing with you no matter how hard you try isnt whining. Your arguments are based on your opinion, solely.

[WarGimp]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

No, youve been protecting the dogfights on 1.2 pathc, thats the point. PW has agreed that STA is manageble, he doesnt agree that it should take "2clickstokill" method to take down someone, and neither do I. Thats his main point and I support skill based victory over an opponent aswell.

My entire point is that there's a new skill set that can be gappled with. It might be limited, but it really does exist. If I can shake someone from my tail while being at a disadvantage, there's gotta be some skill involved, yeah?

But like your diagrams wont change DICEs minds, our disagreement wont either. In the end, its just a thread made for entertainment purposes. So why call names?

The diagrams where made to show that there are ways to implement a better system, thus trying to encourage some more constructive discussion. Dice does read these boards (although I kinda doubt they've bothered to check this thread for awhile)... we even have an active posting Dice employee here.

But yeah, I'm interested in the debate, concept, and theory behind what's going on. I've got a sick obsession with mechanics.

As to my PW bashing... well, it's a do unto others as they do unto others sorta thing. Disrespect has a nasty way of coming back on ya. Honestly, read the condesending nature of most of his posts and tell me there's nothing to arseholish there.
But I don't think that's a good thing either.
I'll try ta play nicer.

People who complained about vastly superior air power that left them no chance for survival (lets apply maths later), most of the stats of those persons show their ultmate devotion to Karkand and tanks. In the end its just a pot yelling at a kettle.

Lots of folks felt pushed into playing on maps without planes because of the broken dynamics. I'm not just talking about armour whores, I'm talking about people who just want to play without being bombed every 20 seconds.

70 kills a round/32 players= ~2 deaths each. So in the end, by pure maths you die 2-3 times a round by a jet. Hell, a tank has raped my guts many times more when theres a heated battle at the flag. In the end its just score-envy. Nothing more, nothing less. A pilot bombs obvious targets.

When a specific element is consistantly returning much higher scores, there's something wonky in the system. That might be untrue in the real world, but it's a cardnel rule of good game balance.

Control points: Areas around the flag, center of the control point, AA under use

Vehicles: green boxes, which, let me remind you, were supposed to be bombed. Why else were the green ATS boxes on the HUD placed?

Ah... AA really sucked to use in 1.12. I tried it quite often, but it just blew chunks. I don't see how you could argue that point when half the time you'd get teamdamage for firing a missile and the other half you just got blown the fark up by planes, tanks, APCs, some dude with a GL, or shot from range by a sniper.

Green boxes? Ah... yeah, there's these things called bombers? :p
The primary role for a fighter is air domination. The designers desided that giving it a secondary role as ground support would be a good idea to increase the fun factor. 1.2 didn't nerf their ability to preform their secondary role, it gave them insentive to preform their primary one.

N00bification never gave a game much lifetime. Granted, some games really are too tough, but its the publicity that sells. BF2 sells because of its variety, not its skill level. It may make some players quit, but the money is already made. BF2 isnt a niche product either. It has been designed as the king of all FPSs and so is its appearance.

Actually, I can think of one title right off the top of my head that does show how noobification can help a game in the market. Tribes 2. When it came out the moaning and crying from the hardcore fanbase was truely amazing. They'd included several elements designed to close the skill gap. Most notably (and interestingly relevent), was the new Fire and Forget guided missile launcher.
This is the funny thing tho... not only did it preform much better in the market than the first game, but it's player numbers were never surpassed by the thrid in the series. It suffered one major blow when the hardcores had screamed loud enough to get a patch put through that reduced the noob friendly elements. Lost about half it's player base overnight.

So yeah, there's a documented case of playing to the noobs resulting in better market preformance.

Ive switched sides so many times regarding the AA and STA, but in the end my opinion is still this- A pilot must have a chance post launch if the countermeasures are deployed. If it takes MORE than a simple turn, so be it. What you cn do, IMO, is adjust the speed, thats it.

1.2 missiles- slow them down and give them less fuel time- gives a jet a possibility to outmaneuver, really outmaneuver a missile. Proper use of game bugs will become a trend (no speed limit at vertical climb, +100 knots speed limit at vertical altitude drop) (Also think "Behind Enemy Lines")

1.12 missiles- speed them up. Missiles position can now be estimated better. An AAer can hit a plane before it makes a turn more successfully.

Funny, I was thinking about slowing down 1,2 missiles as a possible solution. I still think a little tacking lag could work out best.

In the end it doesnt mean anything, Im anti- 1.2 missiles as they currently stand. I´m pro dogfights that took maneuvering and searching for missile opportunities. Anyone saying that missiles didnt hit a jet, which maneuvered is talking crap. All you have to do is to wait for an opportunity, or create a series of them by bleeding the enemy out of its afterburners.

Yeah, it's true that you simply can't dodge a missile without using flares. That's a bit of a problem. It would be nice if you could break tracking through complex maneuvers. However, I see the over all situation as being improved through 1.2. Worse for the pilots, better for everyone else. Since there's more people not flying than are... well, majority rules.

Aside from that, I do like the new tention better. It makes me wanna fly more.

And no Wargimp, staying on my ground and not agreeing with you no matter how hard you try isnt whining. Your arguments are based on your opinion, solely.

No, its not. I never accused you of whining 'cause you're constantly displaying a willingness to see both sides of the fence despite your personal preferance.

I think there's one thing we can agree on... 1.12 was fargin busted. 1.2 ain't perfect. There's a happy medium someplace that could potentially be found.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

My entire point is that there's a new skill set that can be gappled with. It might be limited, but it really does exist. If I can shake someone from my tail while being at a disadvantage, there's gotta be some skill involved, yeah?

It does, indeed. Just that some of us prefer the maneuvering and outmaneuvering part. I have a set of Gran Turismo games .
Besides, if you look at Ace Combat, where youve got 200 missiles and all of them hit if you have a solid lock, the "arcade" part kicks in. You dont kill for the names, you kill for the points. Just that youve got pilots kicking people around on both fronts. If it was difficult to kick pilots around in the skies, its now very easy. Even if you COULDNT take down that bomber prepatch, you delayed it, thus giving your team time to breathe and you were a teamplayer. Whatever you did though, on the forums, all pilots were bashed by infantry and called jackasses.

The diagrams where made to show that there are ways to implement a better system, thus trying to encourage some more constructive discussion. Dice does read these boards (although I kinda doubt they've bothered to check this thread for awhile)... we even have an active posting Dice employee here.

Yeah, those diagrams were great. Could have had a nice continuation fo the discussion from there. But I seriously think that DICE wont implement your tips. Its the same issue we had with CAPCOM, a company simply cannot take the fans suggestions and whatnot and make it work because it would/may/can cause legal issues.

As to my PW bashing... well, it's a do unto others as they do unto others sorta thing. Disrespect has a nasty way of coming back on ya. Honestly, read the condesending nature of most of his posts and tell me there's nothing to arseholish there.
But I don't think that's a good thing either.
I'll try ta play nicer.

I dont see PW as the problem here. Granted, I usually try to get people back on the ground when they are too high but PW never disrespected any of you. Not a single offensive word. No disrespect. The only thing he is convinced of, is that hes the best. And I believe it mostly hurts your egos, so most of you jump to flames. If I had to judge, I´d give a lecture of modesty to PW and a kick in the butt to most of you .

Lots of folks felt pushed into playing on maps without planes because of the broken dynamics. I'm not just talking about armour whores, I'm talking about people who just want to play without being bombed every 20 seconds.

Thats because they didnt like their dominance being challenged. One bombing run from a jet most probably wont kill a tank, it wont kill the APC either. Theres 1-2 bombers per round, they usually attack where the most targets are. Theres a way of using your intelligence to get yourself out of trouble. Its that simple.

When a specific element is consistantly returning much higher scores, there's something wonky in the system. That might be untrue in the real world, but it's a cardnel rule of good game balance.

No, thats score jealousy. A jet is supposed to get more frags than a single infantry unti. And there are more talented tank ad APC drivers than jet pilots. If a jet pilot scores more than a tank/APC driver then it has little to do with balance issues because even in 1.2 those pilots still score more.

Ah... AA really sucked to use in 1.12. I tried it quite often, but it just blew chunks. I don't see how you could argue that point when half the time you'd get teamdamage for firing a missile and the other half you just got blown the fark up by planes, tanks, APCs, some dude with a GL, or shot from range by a sniper.

It was far from perfect and not decent enough to make a single troop walz in, pop 2 shots and down the plane. BUT, it scared the pilots off their run thus being effective. People dont realize that even the buzzer was a part of the AA umbrella. I think a simple non-afterburner turn should mean a kill for the pilot. But I also believe an afterburner turn, fast and sharp should leave a pilot alive. Of course I could bring in more details, but this is the basics. Sharp amneuver with AB aid, should leave a pilot a chance. Heck, I started learning to use the rear view months after I started flying. What do you expect from newbies :laugh:

Green boxes? Ah... yeah, there's these things called bombers? :p
The primary role for a fighter is air domination. The designers desided that giving it a secondary role as ground support would be a good idea to increase the fun factor. 1.2 didn't nerf their ability to preform their secondary role, it gave them insentive to preform their primary one.

The part where I described 2 places- Flag surroundings and green boxes, is what a pilot usually bombs. So if you stay off them, you get a chance to live longer. Now there would have been a simplier way to do this. Either decrease the bomb damage or reduce bomb capacity to 1. Reduce the fighters ROLE in ATS combat, you increase its role in ATA combat . You dont need 100% STA nor ATA to decrease the tendency to score 70 kills. You have to cut the means, through which the pilot scores 70 kills.

Actually, I can think of one title right off the top of my head that does show how noobification can help a game in the market. Tribes 2. When it came out the moaning and crying from the hardcore fanbase was truely amazing. They'd included several elements designed to close the skill gap. Most notably (and interestingly relevent), was the new Fire and Forget guided missile launcher.
This is the funny thing tho... not only did it preform much better in the market than the first game, but it's player numbers were never surpassed by the thrid in the series. It suffered one major blow when the hardcores had screamed loud enough to get a patch put through that reduced the noob friendly elements. Lost about half it's player base overnight.

Never played it, but I´ll take your word for it. But 100% weapon is not the answer here.
There are set problems in STA
*The infantry dont have the time (lifetime) to learn the secrets of 1.12 STA, thus a weapon that needs simple and fast ways to be operated was necessary, OR make it fun to operate. AA with a 100% kill rate is a GREAT answer for the infantry, killing the air combat and ATS element of the game. An ATTACk chopper is designed to ATTACK and be proactive. Its pushed to a support role now in the background. Reduction of its armor AND introducing a 100% lethal weapon is a kill for those birds. The results of 40-0 was probably blind luck because the second they are locked on to...
Now, pushing jets to support role is great, if were talking about supporting the BOMBER. If you want to do that, get rid of the bombs or reduce their damage. NOT make a 100% kill weapon. Many bring in the paper-scissor-rock rule. Well, a tank doesnt have a selfguided 100% kill threat. It has a threat based on skills of the operator of the thread.
*The STA isnt FUN to use, and so it isnt FUN to LEARN how to use.
Discard the AAs, bring in more mobile AAs. Missiles back somewhere between 1.12 and 1.2
*The fixed position of AAs. I wish they were random. In the flag area of course.
*OR, my most favourite solution- get a AI to operate the AAs. Create auto-sentry AAs and thats it.

Funny, I was thinking about slowing down 1,2 missiles as a possible solution. I still think a little tacking lag could work out best.

Well. If I DID get your idea of "tacking lag" (check my diagram I posted, with the awesomeness of MS Paint), then I also think its best.

Yeah, it's true that you simply can't dodge a missile without using flares. That's a bit of a problem. It would be nice if you could break tracking through complex maneuvers. However, I see the over all situation as being improved through 1.2. Worse for the pilots, better for everyone else. Since there's more people not flying than are... well, majority rules.

Thats the truth. But since its a pilots topic about air part of BF2 Im going to ignore the ground pounders to an extent, LOL.
If dogfights arent fun anymore, then the blow is a bit extreme.

Aside from that, I do like the new tention better. It makes me wanna fly more.

Theres definitely a scare factor there now. But I personally got it with ever experienced (good) player I met.

I think there's one thing we can agree on... 1.12 was fargin busted. 1.2 ain't perfect. There's a happy medium someplace that could potentially be found.

LOL. Yeah... kinda... I think DICE overdid it in 1.2, or wasnt careful enough.

EDIT: We broke the MoonGamers thread?

[Hu.Z_of_PLA]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

just let this thread die.

[BarkingSquirrel]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

I loved PW's 2 part video, or atleast I would have had he not actively avoided chasing the other planes nearly every single time he saw it. Yup, thems some 1337 dogfighting skillz yo!

[baggygreen]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

I think the number of posts in here is incredible. when i think about how many of them have simply rehashed what 30 other people have already said, i split my sides with laughter! I agree, it is probably time to lay this to rest, however i do have just one tiny lil comment to make to chris_redfield

you made mention in that last post of yours that a single bombing run from a jet isnt likely to disable or destroy an apc or a tank... however most of my deaths in armour have in fact been from being bombed - i find that its also a great way to know when you're up against a quality pilot, because it takes a good eye to be able to drop your bombs directly onto a target!