Gift to Pilots stuggling to adapt.

[SlakTSP]

Re: Gift to Pilots stuggling to adapt.

Every time PW presents a number of arguments, people start going after him personally rather his arguments. This is fvcking boring. Grow the fvck up for once. Man, really!

What arguments?

Saying that you can turn or saying that you shouldnt be able to dodge missiles? Why shouldnt I? This is a GAME FIRST AND FORMOST. AA in BF1942 took skill to use and was by no means a gurantee kill. That said you could cap flags in BF1942 by yourself in a plane you cant do that in this game.

Furthermore many many maps have no planes, if you dont like planes then fight on a server that just has city maps. If you want to fight with aircraft and cant handle it then get in an aircraft and shoot them down. Ele dont sit in an aircraft becuase we can soo you from far far away or you can always spawn somewhere else.

As for AA itself be crap, youve been told numerous times that its about TIMING your shots. even pilots have to hit you from a direction, if you can get the pin on them when they come in for that shot theyre lined up to be killed.

AA should not be the e-z button for aircraft.

[SlakTSP]

Re: Gift to Pilots stuggling to adapt.

I specifically said that escape maneuvers rely on the use of countermeasures/flares. No, you can't dodge a missile any more than a grunt can dodge a sniper bullet. What you CAN do is make yourself harder to lock up (don't let people get on your tail in the first place) and if you hear that warning, understand that you've got seconds to live unless you do something drastic. Flare, break, maneuver.

Give it a shot.

And lemme be clear here... I'd be more than happy to see you come back with a fraps vid of you turnin and burnin and gettin those kills. I'll be the first to congradulate you if I saw an honest effort on your part rather than endless tyrades.

Countermeasures? AS in plural? Maybe you need to look at your own writing skills (liekly the source of his "reading issues". Seems like the only "countermeasure" (singular) you advocate are flares). That doesnt take skill its just hit x and fly. If you wanted "real" combat then where is the napalm strike? or the oversea artillery (artillery is a WW2 weapon...)? or what about a nuke when all seems lost? Thats not even getting into the other weaponry not present in the game.

You know why its not in there and why the game IS a game? Becuase everything real does not equate to fun.

BTW you dont need to get on someones "tail" to get a lock you can get a lock from fairly far away and can launch missiles without even attempting to stay on someone's tail. Before it took skill toactually get into position.

[Piddy]

Re: Gift to Pilots stuggling to adapt.

I was playing earlier with the J-10 and basically anytime I'd get an F-35B or an F-18 on my tail I'd go in to the hardest constant turn possible and toss my flares at the right moment to dodge the first missile spam, and even if they kept going in circles with me I'd eventually be on their tail and they're guaranteed to be dead at that point. ... The J-10 has always been overpowered compared to the other planes but before the patch being in a J-10 didn't guarantee you success in a dogfight, but unfortunatly now it does.

So what you're saying is that in the J10, you can dodge the first lock-on and that's enough time for you to be able to be out of view from a second lock-on?

What happens if you're being locked on from a slow-moving F35 from a distance? Is it possible this tactic ould take you out (whilst obvious being very vulnerable themselves).

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Gift to Pilots stuggling to adapt.

What arguments?

Saying that you can turn or saying that you shouldnt be able to dodge missiles? Why shouldnt I? This is a GAME FIRST AND FORMOST. AA in BF1942 took skill to use and was by no means a gurantee kill. That said you could cap flags in BF1942 by yourself in a plane you cant do that in this game.

Furthermore many many maps have no planes, if you dont like planes then fight on a server that just has city maps. If you want to fight with aircraft and cant handle it then get in an aircraft and shoot them down. Ele dont sit in an aircraft becuase we can soo you from far far away or you can always spawn somewhere else.

As for AA itself be crap, youve been told numerous times that its about TIMING your shots. even pilots have to hit you from a direction, if you can get the pin on them when they come in for that shot theyre lined up to be killed.

AA should not be the e-z button for aircraft.

What does this have to do with me and my post? I was advocating countering PWs arguments with counterarguments, not the usual crap liek "Youre so full of yourself, you have issues" and whatnot.

I advocate skills in dogfights, I advocate the use of cannons and timed missile strikes and mindboggling maneuvers that leave you exhausted, I advocate fun through hard work IN the dogfight not BEFORE the dogfight, I advocate a battle of skills not battle of preparations, I advocate fight with a chance "post launch", instead of death "post launch".

EDIT: During this, I also remember that arguing in thso forum wont change anything, but its fun.

[Paas]

Re: Gift to Pilots stuggling to adapt.

Countermeasures? AS in plural? Maybe you need to look at your own writing skills (liekly the source of his "reading issues". Seems like the only "countermeasure" (singular) you advocate are flares).

You didn't spell likely correctly... just to let you know.

You know why its not in there and why the game IS a game? Becuase everything real does not equate to fun.

BTW you dont need to get on someones "tail" to get a lock you can get a lock from fairly far away and can launch missiles without even attempting to stay on someone's tail. Before it took skill toactually get into position.

First, you seem to be one of the "few" who aren't enjoying the changes to the Anti-Air. So, although it might not equal fun for you, most are actually having "more" fun.

Second, you're right. You don't need to always be on someone's "tail" to get a lock. Yet, you have flares for those such random locks. Use them. After you have bought yourself some freetime work to make sure the enemy cannot get another lock until your flares recharge. If you're a talented enough pilot, you shouldn't have a problem keeping someone from getting a lock when you know they are gunning for it.

...also. No, it didn't take anymore more skill than now to "aquire" a lock. What it did take is your opponet damn near flying in a perfectly straight line without poping flares for your missiles to hit. No one just "jets" ahead in a straight line, so missiles where for the most part useless. The locking system hasn't changed one bit, you just actually have somthing to fear once that tone becomes solid. As it should be.

{WP}Paas

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Gift to Pilots stuggling to adapt.

So what you're saying is that in the J10, you can dodge the first lock-on and that's enough time for you to be able to be out of view from a second lock-on?

What happens if you're being locked on from a slow-moving F35 from a distance? Is it possible this tactic ould take you out (whilst obvious being very vulnerable themselves).

I was thinking about the same thing. Seems to me like a default dogfighting prepatch scenario where planes were often nose-to-tail and didnt try to stay behind. Usually a problem of people who rely overly on the cannon rather than the missile. In this case J-10 stays above the HUD and almost out of the view and being out of the LOCKON, but not being out of the missile maneuverings capability that 1.2 has.

So basically, throttle control, get the hell off the enagement, come back and keep distance and use the missile- advice that would counter the situation described by PW.

[WarGimp]

Re: Gift to Pilots stuggling to adapt.

Countermeasures? AS in plural? Maybe you need to look at your own writing skills (liekly the source of his "reading issues". Seems like the only "countermeasure" (singular) you advocate are flares). That doesnt take skill its just hit x and fly. If you wanted "real" combat then where is the napalm strike? or the oversea artillery (artillery is a WW2 weapon...)? or what about a nuke when all seems lost? Thats not even getting into the other weaponry not present in the game.

Er. Ok. Actually, I was just making a proper referance. You drop more than one flare. In terms of the game, those flares would actually be a mix of chaff and flares (since they seem to throw everything off).

Anyway, arguing semantics does not make your point valid or you cool.
:p

You know why its not in there and why the game IS a game? Becuase everything real does not equate to fun.

I fully agree with ya here. I'm not a reality junky. If I was, I wouldn't play BF2. AA is more realistic on the ground and Lock On is an actual Air Sim.

However, it's worth understanding certain factors of reality that the game engine attempts to aproximate. By looking at some real life tactics, you can get some good ideas of how to modify and apply them to the game.

If you're not in the headspace to do that, don't bother. Leave it to the thinkers.

BTW you dont need to get on someones "tail" to get a lock you can get a lock from fairly far away and can launch missiles without even attempting to stay on someone's tail. Before it took skill toactually get into position.

If you're not on someone's take and you launch at him, he's just gonna drop flares and you're not gonna make your kill (not reliably, anyway). If you can get in on his 6, you can sucker him into dropping flares, then follow up with a launch that will result in a clean kill. That's what's important about it.

[SlakTSP]

Re: Gift to Pilots stuggling to adapt.

One of the few?

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewforum.php?id=6

Notice the 600 post complaint thread

And WP the point was that aquiring locks are extremely easy, and if you can lock on from halfway acroos the map to waste flares you're deadmeat to any other AA across the map. Also your right it didnt take more "skill" to lock on, it just took more skill to "shoot" them down. And the real bomber aircraft (the SU like ones) were so damn slow that they cant turn fast enough to avoid missiles if you know how to use them.

[redrider]

Re: Gift to Pilots stuggling to adapt.

I have a few coments, dont I always. Anyway, Wargimp thanks for the guide, great reading. Does it apply to BF2? Does it matter?
I was in the US Air Force as an Instrument tech and I was lucky enough to have a room mate who worked in the simulator shop. I have about 100 hours logged on the F-15 simulator, let me tell you something the missles in this game still dont come close to the ones they really use. Ive seen the demo films, live dmeos, flown against them in the simulator, not even close.
With that said I think everyone is over looking what EA/Dice had in mind when they made this change. They wanted the pilots to start shooting at each other and not go on endless bombing runs. They also wanted a shift in the pilot skills from bombing skills to skills you need to keep yourself alive. Thats right, there has been a large shift, for pilots, toward defensive flying skills. Those "leet" pilots will die untill they develope those skills.
Now on to Wargimps pilot stats, like they matter, I mean great info comes from all sources. It depends on who finds it and brings it here. A K/D ratio of 500,000 or .50 doesnt change the info one bit. If I play 2 hours in a ranked server as pilot my stats will show 2 hours and not the 500 hours I spent flying on unranked servers. I really dont see what the problems with some of the people here are, I think we could get together and have a really great BF2 game, some of you guys are starting to sound like a bunch of nit picking old ladies.
Look bottom line is this, the game is like a big puzzle, no one knows what piece the other guy needs so we bring the pieces here and you use what you need and just forget about the rest. It really doesnt matter if it came from Wargimp, Mr. Butler, or me just take what you need and leave the rest. . . .Red

Oh, by the way the main event at the next pay per view is gonna be Wargimp vs Nastie Butler its a "no holds barred" event. . . . .LOL

[SlakTSP]

Re: Gift to Pilots stuggling to adapt.

Er. Ok. Actually, I was just making a proper referance. You drop more than one flare. In terms of the game, those flares would actually be a mix of chaff and flares (since they seem to throw everything off).

Anyway, arguing semantics does not make your point valid or you cool.
:p

The use of flares is singular, its ONE tactic. Are you saying thats good? That pilots should only be abl to do only one thing besides ejecting in aircraft when reacting to situations?

I fully agree with ya here. I'm not a reality junky. If I was, I wouldn't play BF2. AA is more realistic on the ground and Lock On is an actual Air Sim.
However, it's worth understanding certain factors of reality that the game engine attempts to aproximate. By looking at some real life tactics, you can get some good ideas of how to modify and apply them to the game.

If you're not in the headspace to do that, don't bother. Leave it to the thinkers.

Air sims are simulators of reality, hence the name. Do you think aircraft would actually use their guns now? Thats out of date, its all missiles and bombs now from 7 miles up in the sky killing targets 1 by 1 safely out of range. Thats not "fun" tho.

The game engine approximations are horrid tho. It makes it so AA functions as it does in the real world. Missile you can shoot b4 seeing who your shooting at and kill them

If you're not on someone's take and you launch at him, he's just gonna drop flares and you're not gonna make your kill (not reliably, anyway). If you can get in on his 6, you can sucker him into dropping flares, then follow up with a launch that will result in a clean kill. That's what's important about it.

No thats whats stupid about it. Its to easy to get a lock, and dogfights in games are meant to be more about using guns to take down a plane. AKA getting the ANGLE on your opponent for a shot and guessing his next move.

[WarGimp]

Re: Gift to Pilots stuggling to adapt.

I have a few coments, dont I always. Anyway, Wargimp thanks for the guide, great reading. Does it apply to BF2? Does it matter?

Yer welcome. Does it apply? Yeah, I think so. Not as a direct hard and fast "this is how to fly in BF2" guide, but rather as a way to encourage thinking people ta think a bit. Hopefully some folks out there have the brains to take something like this and adapt some aspects for use in BF2. The fundamentals apply, the rest is up to the reader to absorb, adapt, and/or dissmiss.

I was in the US Air Force as an Instrument tech and I was lucky enough to have a room mate who worked in the simulator shop. I have about 100 hours logged on the F-15 simulator, let me tell you something the missles in this game still dont come close to the ones they really use. Ive seen the demo films, live dmeos, flown against them in the simulator, not even close.

I'm curious as to what you ment by that. "Not even close" as in RL missiles being more or less deadly? I'd be interested in your views on this not because I think BF2 needs to be closer to RL, but because it's simply interesting.

With that said I think everyone is over looking what EA/Dice had in mind when they made this change. They wanted the pilots to start shooting at each other and not go on endless bombing runs. They also wanted a shift in the pilot skills from bombing skills to skills you need to keep yourself alive. Thats right, there has been a large shift, for pilots, toward defensive flying skills. Those "leet" pilots will die untill they develope those skills.

Yup, I'm thinking this is much closer to what Dice had in mind. Fighters should be able to own bombers. That's what fighters are FOR after all. The reduction of rediculous scores is perfectly ok by me. I'm not one for complaining and pulling my hair out over a game... but being a ground pounder before the patch was often a hugely frustrating experiance. On the other hand, I felt no desire to fly simply because it was a seriously boring thing to do. I like a challenge. Flying wasn't a challenge in the slightest.

Now on to Wargimps pilot stats, like they matter, I mean great info comes from all sources. It depends on who finds it and brings it here. A K/D ratio of 500,000 or .50 doesnt change the info one bit. If I play 2 hours in a ranked server as pilot my stats will show 2 hours and not the 500 hours I spent flying on unranked servers. I really dont see what the problems with some of the people here are, I think we could get together and have a really great BF2 game, some of you guys are starting to sound like a bunch of nit picking old ladies.

I think there's a few things that my stats really say about my playing:
- I don't really give a damn about stats
- I'm a sneaky cuss when it comes to knifing
- I'm willing to die for my team
- I've spent time in every roll and exploring every aspect of this game.
- I'm over 15 and don't have the relexes I used to (crap hardware doesn't help either)

Look bottom line is this, the game is like a big puzzle, no one knows what piece the other guy needs so we bring the pieces here and you use what you need and just forget about the rest. It really doesnt matter if it came from Wargimp, Mr. Butler, or me just take what you need and leave the rest. . . .Red

I tend to think of it less as a puzzle and more as a *system*. You can observe how any single part of the system works on it's own, but it will be an incomplete picture if you don't think about how elements outside that part effect it. For example: The increase of AA missile effectiveness has prompted more people to use them. This has decreased how many points you can expect to wrack up in planes. Thus, people who's only real interest in flying was in big scores will stop flying and start looking for something else thatgive 'em big points (or quit). This leads to fewer air targets, which in turn will make AA manning boring. Fewer people will be manning them next week and surviving in the air will become a little easier.

This is a display of game mechanics vs player mentality.

Oh, by the way the main event at the next pay per view is gonna be Wargimp vs Nastie Butler its a "no holds barred" event. . . . .LOL

Hehe.
Mud pit, barbed wire wrapped 2X4s, 3 badgers and a cow.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Gift to Pilots stuggling to adapt.

Fighters didnt have a problem owning bombers pre-patch either.

[WarGimp]

Re: Gift to Pilots stuggling to adapt.

Fighters didnt have a problem owning bombers pre-patch either.

I know... they just never bothered.
All the fighter pilots were too busy bombing stuff to bother chasing bombers.

[bitvomit]

Re: Gift to Pilots stuggling to adapt.

Countermeasures? AS in plural? Maybe you need to look at your own writing skills (liekly the source of his "reading issues". Seems like the only "countermeasure" (singular) you advocate are flares). That doesnt take skill its just hit x and fly. If you wanted "real" combat then where is the napalm strike? or the oversea artillery (artillery is a WW2 weapon...)? or what about a nuke when all seems lost? Thats not even getting into the other weaponry not present in the game.

nuff said.

Anyway, I only managed to play about 40 mins today, half of which was in a jet. I noted that jets are no longer flying quad damage/invincibility power ups. Flying over CP's with manned AA is a real hazard now. I had alot of trouble getting around the BF without getting constant locks. If you're gonna fly into a nest of AA, you better have flares ready because you are gonna get hit atleast once or twice without them. In a way, I feel that AA is kind of overpowered (as funny as that sounds). It was dangerous to fly through CP's even before the patch where AA sites were manned. Just the lock on from AA is enough to persuade most pilots to leave the area. Now you can drop your flares and avoid one AA site, but you may yet be hit by another AA site.
Since AA has been improved now, there will no doubt be in increase in the amount of people that use AA.

On the flip side of the issue, I saw very few jet whore base rapers. There was the occasional guy dropping bombs here and there but I also saw the same people leaving smoke trails through the sky and dying constantly. All in all, I'm not sure if the AA fix is an improvement or not at this point.

[WarGimp]

Re: Gift to Pilots stuggling to adapt.

I found this and thought I'd share, just 'cause it's kinda amusing:

http://rapidshare.de/files/13760427/F18KillA4.wmv.html

Oddly enough, team damage seems to occur in the real skys too.

Hmm... what the hell, I'll toss this up too:

http://rapidshare.de/files/13760485/F15_midair.wmv.html

Don't you hate it when you get noobed that way?

Edit: this has nothing to do with any argument/debate/(god forbid) Discussion going on here. Just amusing stuff for folks that like planes.