The PRO-Voss community

[Raidyr]

A typically stupid comment that only stirs flame wars, the gun you use is in no way a measure of your skill level

I use the Voss beause I get lots of kills with that gun, does that make me a "noob"?

Doesn't make you a noob.

Certainly doesn't make you a pro.

[blank1]

It has a surplus of range, or more to the point, damage over range, which is the only thing I want toned down.

Actually, the damage drop off on the Voss is fast, second only to the Krylov. The Voss's base deviation is 2.5, while the Baur's is 2.0, and that is quite a difference. At close-medium to medium ranges, the Voss's burst fire will often hit extremities or just straight up miss, while the Baur can shoot with more precision. A good fast-clicking single shot Baur will take only 2 - 4 shots to end anyone within their effective combat range, while beyond the nearer stretches of combat range,the Voss can take 6 - 9 shots due to deviation issues. Not to mention that the Voss can't just rip off a 6 - 9 shot burst to achieve a 6 - 9 shot kill, it has to shoot in bursts, which increases time to kill. In contrast, the Baur can just click-click-click his way without delay, or fire off a single or two 2 shot bursts (skilled Baur users can two-shot burst with just as much efficiency as single-shot at the near stretches of combat range.)

Ok. Show me how the Baur can beat any other rifle at close quarters. All of them are obviously the same, just that the Baur is less popular, right?

There is no proving my personal experience to you other than playing with you, and you're probably unwilling to do that. So, let me present you some statistics, all relevant to the Baur in close quarters. The Voss kills in 5 shots, shooting at 900 RPM against heavy armor. The first shot doesn't factor into RPM since one click always equals one shot, but the next 4 come out every 1/15 seconds. That's a kill, in one 5 shot burst to the torso in CQB, in 0.3 seconds. The Baur kills heavy armor in 4 shots at 600 RPM. After the first shot, the next 3 come out every 1/10 seconds. That's a kill in 0.33 seconds. The difference in kill time between a Voss and a Baur is three hundredths of a second, which is 300 clicks passing by the time you can say "Duh." That's a lot of clicks, and also an extremely microscopic amount of time -- the Voss and Baur kill with functionally identical efficiency in close range, assuming the Baur user is skilled (remember the learning curve difference.)

The only reason the other assault rifles slightly outperform the Baur in CQB is because they have larger clip sizes.

Again, incorrect. The Voss is good at everything except long long range (on singleshot while crouched you can still fire pretty accuratly). The Baur is worse than the default rifles at close quarters. That isnt proper balance. The Voss niches overlap the Baurs.

I wasn't incorrect about anything, really. The assault rifle fit into their niches with very slight margins of superiority over each other. The Voss fits into is CQB niche because it has a large clip, a high ROF, low recoil, but also has a large base deviation, less powerful scope, and quick damage drop off. The reason the Baur fits into a close-mid to mid range, designated marksman kind of niche is because it has very high per bullet damage (34), and low base deviation. It's hampered slightly in CQB because it has a small clip size, and the recoil throws off less skilled Baur shooters.

My theory is that DICE balanced the AR's by giving them features that seemed to have functionality but were more cosmetic, creating the illusion of assault rifles that perform drastically different, but actually perform within very close margins of each other, with their niches differentiated only slightly by little "nudging" factors that give them knife's edge advantages. Quite a stroke of genius, if you ask me. I suppose DICE figured that people weren't going to be thinking "I have a low deviation, high per bullet damage weapon with high recoil, I'm going to stick to rooftops and good cover until I can get the handle of my recoil and learn ammo management before I really push forward." People pick up their guns and go where they want to, so instead of making guns that function best in very specific situations and/or ranges, covering all those circumstances with different AR's, they made the AR's feel different and function slightly better in certain situations, but kept them similar enough so that you could use every AR in every AR situation, should you have to do it. They're clever, those DICE wizards.

[Vreki]

Actually, the damage drop off on the Voss is fast, second only to the Krylov.

No its not, because it has a high "Damage Decreasing Distance" .
I will quote myself because nobody contradicted me, and that of course means that I am right

The Baurs strength should be at distance, where clips size shouldn't be a factor. You already carry 140 rounds.

I looked at the numbers in the Comparison tool, and saw something interesting
"Damage Decreasing Distance" is 35 m for the standard ARs, but 40 m for the Baur and the Voss.

As I understand it this number is the distance at which bullets will have full damage.
So I ask you, why is it that that number in the CQB AR is not only better than the standard AR´s but equal to the long range AR?

I think it would made more sense to set that value below that of the standard AR´s, e.g. 30 m.

[Merlin]

Doesn't make you a noob.

Certainly doesn't make you a pro.

Exactly my point thankyou

[GrandHero]

I just unlocked the voss and I've never looked back.

funny thing about how I got it, I had gotten enough points to rank up but the server didnt update so i didnt ranks up until I had gotten enough points to rank up three times...so then I ranked up three times at once.

Anyway who has something to sya about the noobs who hate the voss?

watch my Vossy video

[Diamond621]

I looked at the numbers in the Comparison tool, and saw something interesting
"Damage Decreasing Distance" is 35 m for the standard ARs, but 40 m for the Baur and the Voss.

As I understand it this number is the distance at which bullets will have full damage.
So I ask you, why is it that that number in the CQB AR is not only better than the standard AR´s but equal to the long range AR?

I think it would made more sense to set that value below that of the standard AR´s, e.g. 30 m.

You're partially correct here, but allow me to fill in the rest of the puzzle. The way damage falloff works in 2142 is that from a certain distance, the "damage decreasing distance," rounds begin to lose power. They gradually fall from their maximum damage value to their minimum damage value (Voss 25 to 20, Baur 31 to 25) over a range which varies with each weapon. At this second plateau, the damage levels off at the minimum value, and all shots taken from beyond this range do the weapon's minimum damage value.

To put it another way, shots from 0-40m with either gun do full damage, modified for hit location and armor.

-With the Voss, shots from 40 to 65 meters fall off from 25 to the Voss's minimum damage of 20 in a linear pattern - a 42m shot might do 24 damage, while a 63m shot may do 21.

-With the Baur, shots from 40 to 70 meters fall off from 31 to the Baur's minimum damage of 25 in a linear pattern - a 42m shot will do 30 damage, while a 69m shot will do around 26.

While both ARs begin to lose damage potential at the same range (40m), the Baur retains its damage potential over a longer range. Coupled with its higher base damage to begin with, it makes it the far, far superior long range weapon and rounds out the niche of both weapons.

As for the reason why these two beat the "CQB AR", your guess is as good as mine. The Voss is meant to be a suppression weapon, and I suppose its success in CQB is rather a side effect, as you aptly put, of its clip size. The stocks seem better suited to CQB with their superior damage, quite frankly. The low damage of the Voss means that even if its D.D.D. is superior to the stocks, it does less damage either way.

[Digital-Boy]

My major gripe with the Voss is that it not only dominates close-range combat but mid-range combat too. If you take the Baur up against an opponent at medium range, you may want to try short bursts, right? Well, when you pull down the trigger, you have to pull down to compensate for the huge muzzle climb and then you have the huge deviation/shot on top of that. So even if you do keep the crosshairs steady, the gun doesn't shoot straight after 4 shots. Even firing in bursts doesn't really alleviate the miserable deviation/shot. SCAR is a similar case, although it might be better after the new patch. Bring in the Voss or Krylov, you can fire off rapid 5-round bursts and still get two or three hits in the first burst and one or two in every following burst. Range should be playing to the Baur/SCAR's advantage, but instead there's this ackward middle distance where the Baur/SCAR are even weaker than the Voss/Krylov than at close range.

[blank1]

You're partially correct here, but allow me to fill in the rest of the puzzle. The way damage falloff works in 2142 is that from a certain distance, the "damage decreasing distance," rounds begin to lose power. They gradually fall from their maximum damage value to their minimum damage value (Voss 25 to 20, Baur 31 to 25) over a range which varies with each weapon. At this second plateau, the damage levels off at the minimum value, and all shots taken from beyond this range do the weapon's minimum damage value.

To put it another way, shots from 0-40m with either gun do full damage, modified for hit location and armor.

-With the Voss, shots from 40 to 65 meters fall off from 25 to the Voss's minimum damage of 20 in a linear pattern - a 42m shot might do 24 damage, while a 63m shot may do 21.

-With the Baur, shots from 40 to 70 meters fall off from 31 to the Baur's minimum damage of 25 in a linear pattern - a 42m shot will do 30 damage, while a 69m shot will do around 26.

While both ARs begin to lose damage potential at the same range (40m), the Baur retains its damage potential over a longer range. Coupled with its higher base damage to begin with, it makes it the far, far superior long range weapon and rounds out the niche of both weapons.

As for the reason why these two beat the "CQB AR", your guess is as good as mine. The Voss is meant to be a suppression weapon, and I suppose its success in CQB is rather a side effect, as you aptly put, of its clip size. The stocks seem better suited to CQB with their superior damage, quite frankly. The low damage of the Voss means that even if its D.D.D. is superior to the stocks, it does less damage either way.

Diamond has covered already what I intended to cover in terms of damage drop off, but I couldn't find the chart with the damage drop off stats, and I didn't want to give ballpark numbers. The reason the damage drop off on the Voss is so significant is not necessarily the rate at which it deteriorates, but rather, the Voss already only does 25 damage, which is a 5 shot kill on heavy armor, and slight drops in damage can turn that into a 6 or 7 shot kill fairly quickly, where the higher damages on the other AR's allow deterioration to effect the total bullets to kill less (BTW, the Baur does 34 damage I think, not 31, and I believe it's min damage is 22.) Example:

The Baur does 27.2 damage (I'll take off decimals from here on out), or 27, to heavy armor. In 4 shots, the Baur achieves 108 damage (assumption is that all damage is done to the armored torso.) If this were to drop 2 damage from damage drop off, it would still be a 4 shot kill. If it dropped 2 more, it would be a 5 shot kill. The Voss does 20 damage to heavy armor, and does 100 damage after 5 shots on the money. This means that those 5 shots better strike the torso, or else it's at least a 6 shot kill, and the Voss's deviation lends to misses or extremity hits when approaching 40m. Say the damage drops of by 2, it's now a 6 shot kill. 2 more, and it's a 7 shot kill. Let's remember that the Voss's 25 damage must deteriorate to 20 before 65 meters, where as the Baur's must deteriorate to 22 before 70 meters.

This means that the Baur retains more lethality over range than the Voss, and the two AR's already have functionally identical kill speeds (0.3 seconds versus 0.33.) The Voss's primary advantage over the Baur is its clip size, affording it 1000 damage in a clip versus the Baur's 680. This may fit it into its suppression niche, but it gives it just a slight heads up over the Baur, and other AR's IMO, in CQB. The SCAR-11 and Krylov are more or less bridges between already marginally close niche differentiation, IMO.

[The_Eliminator]

These threads make me lose will to live, its like a piece of string with no conclusive ending.

[WolfAlmighty]

My major gripe with the Voss is that it not only dominates close-range combat but mid-range combat too. If you take the Baur up against an opponent at medium range, you may want to try short bursts, right? Well, when you pull down the trigger, you have to pull down to compensate for the huge muzzle climb and then you have the huge deviation/shot on top of that. So even if you do keep the crosshairs steady, the gun doesn't shoot straight after 4 shots. Even firing in bursts doesn't really alleviate the miserable deviation/shot. SCAR is a similar case, although it might be better after the new patch. Bring in the Voss or Krylov, you can fire off rapid 5-round bursts and still get two or three hits in the first burst and one or two in every following burst. Range should be playing to the Baur/SCAR's advantage, but instead there's this ackward middle distance where the Baur/SCAR are even weaker than the Voss/Krylov than at close range.

This is exactly what makes the Voss so popular. Well, the 40-round clip doesn't hurt either. But people like it because you don't have to worry much about controlling your fire. Drop to a knee, let a 5 or 6-round burst go, and count the kill. Not a lot of care required when it comes to weapon control. Newbies love it because it's less tempermental, and with 40 rounds you can afford to miss. Plus the visible recoil on the weapon isn't even close to what the Baur's is.

Now, take that advantage and put it in the hands of someone with good reflexes and who knows how to control their fire, and the weapon is almost unmatchable, except at very extreme ranges.

~Wolfgang

[Diamond621]

(BTW, the Baur does 34 damage I think, not 31, and I believe it's min damage is 22.) Example:

Hard statistics on the Baur say 31/25 but that could've been tweaked at some point. I'm relatively confident in the low end figure, but I've heard your high end number of 34 as well from other sources, so I think a split of 34/25 is probably accurate (34/22 seems too large of a damage range to me...).

Can't be bothered to confirm. It's Sunday :p

[WolfAlmighty]

Hard statistics on the Baur say 31/25 but that could've been tweaked at some point. I'm relatively confident in the low end figure, but I've heard your high end number of 34 as well from other sources, so I think a split of 34/25 is probably accurate (34/22 seems too large of a damage range to me...).

Can't be bothered to confirm. It's Sunday :p

From the .tweak files themselves:

Baur:

ObjectTemplate.minDamage 22
ObjectTemplate.damage 34
ObjectTemplate.distToStartLoseDamage 40
ObjectTemplate.distToMinDamage 70

Voss:

ObjectTemplate.minDamage 20
ObjectTemplate.damage 25
ObjectTemplate.distToStartLoseDamage 40
ObjectTemplate.distToMinDamage 65

~Wolfgang

[Diamond621]

From the .tweak files themselves:

Baur:

ObjectTemplate.minDamage 22
ObjectTemplate.damage 34
ObjectTemplate.distToStartLoseDamage 40
ObjectTemplate.distToMinDamage 70

Voss:

ObjectTemplate.minDamage 20
ObjectTemplate.damage 25
ObjectTemplate.distToStartLoseDamage 40
ObjectTemplate.distToMinDamage 65

~Wolfgang

Then I stand corrected. Point conceded, and thanks for the clarification :).

[WolfAlmighty]

Then I stand corrected. Point conceded, and thanks for the clarification :).

My pleasure. Anything for a Herzogger. :)

Which actually is an interesting point - at over 70m, the Baur (seemingly the one meant for long-range work) does a measly 2 damage more than the Voss. The distance to min is only 5m longer for the Baur than it is the Voss, so the Baur actually gets worse at long ranges (percentage wise) than the Voss does, but the Voss is the Light AR. I never actually noticed this discrepancy until today. No wonder the Voss is so popular.

~Wolfgang

[Raidyr]

My pleasure. Anything for a Herzogger. :)

Which actually is an interesting point - at over 70m, the Baur (seemingly the one meant for long-range work) does a measly 2 damage more than the Voss. The distance to min is only 5m longer for the Baur than it is the Voss, so the Baur actually gets worse at long ranges (percentage wise) than the Voss does, but the Voss is the Light AR. I never actually noticed this discrepancy until today. No wonder the Voss is so popular.

~Wolfgang

That is what I have been saying all along. Lower that one attribute and everyone wins. Voss users keep a good short/medium range rifle, and Baur users keep a good medium/long range rifle, the way it is supposed to be.