New Trailer ... Jets!

[menace-uk-]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

I have over 1000 hours in a jet, most of it dogfighting. 90% of the time, when an opponents jet was spotted, I had it. Those remaining 10% were pilots equal or better than me. Once the jet was on the minimap, I knew where it was and where it was going. And once I had a visual of it, it was difficult to lose me. And by the end of BF2-s lifecyle, there were hundreds of very good pilots. 3D spotting, no fog of war and a huge FOV will make it ridiculously easy to never let the enemy jet out of your sight. At the same time, all of this combined, will make it ridiculously easy for someone to find you merely because you were airbourne. And again, element of surprise is gone because the view distance is unlimited and the FOV is large.

You seem to be under the impression that this is going to be BF2 style dogfighting without fog of war. I'm telling you, this is going to be an entirely new ballgame.

Actually I ain't under that impression at all. I understand it will be different and add new challenges but that isn't a bad thing IMO. If you're as skilled you post claims then you should be just fine. Not oo mention that I expect a lot of stuff too be changed in the first few months due too BF 2 vets crying about things. (Not aimed at you)

[Anarchy1]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

All I have to say is, DICE has been testing and balancing the game for months. I trust them to work out AA and jet balancing since they are the ones actually playing the game. If it is wrong, we can complain during the beta as they have shown they are listening to community feedback this time.

[Skaggy]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

Oh man, there are going to be some major issues with air now. All aspects combined will make it into a pretty dreadful outcome.
First, we don't have fog of war anymore, so jets and choppers are always out in the open. Secondly, did you see how the missiles hit the chopper in the trailer? This means we're back to the uberhoming missile age, with nowhere to hide. Then, the massive FOV you get from external views. Now, all by themselves, these things won't matter, they would probably just add a new dimension to skill required to do good in air, and that is not a bad thing. However, with 3D spotting also thrown in, people WILL be forced to baserape like crazy just to not be on the receiving end of the surprise stick. I would settle for a cloud level at 400 metres, but 3D spotting across the map would make that pretty much irrelevant anyway.

And considering how DICE has been with suggestions from even those who have spent considerable time playing a certain aspect in BF2, there is shit-all use in giving them pointers.

3D spotting (internally and externally visible)
No fog of war
Massive external FOV
Uber air to air missiles (not worried about STA)
=
Dogfights and air aspect which is way too much reliant on chance

It seems like there won't be any noseview either. This cockpit wobbling looks incredibly irritating.

Yeah, it looks pretty, but there are a lot of if's and but's surrounding it.

Completely agree with your points. The FOW in BF2 was primarily there to increase performance, but it also played a very important role in allowing for fluid and dynamic air combat.

One wonders if a large map with plenty of relief would have the same effect when the FOW is removed.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

Actually I ain't under that impression at all. I understand it will be different and add new challenges but that isn't a bad thing IMO. If you're as skilled you post claims then you should be just fine. Not oo mention that I expect a lot of stuff too be changed in the first few months due too BF 2 vets crying about things. (Not aimed at you)

Thing is. I am not talking about these issues from the perspective of a "veteran air whore", who will be hit by the changes. This affects negatively air play for everyone. New players will be in a world of hurt because they will not be able to escape or hide from the vets. And vets will have to start baseraping in order to make sure they won't be targeted from halfway across the map. There is no doubt that everyone will adapt sooner or later. The question is- will the people adapt in a way DICE intended them to, and if they will adapt in a way which wouldn't break the game. DICE have shown to be incapable of seeing consequences of their changes past just a few days. In order for air aspect to work under new circumstances, you would have to change up things which may not be associated with flying directly.

Anarchy, I wouldn't put much faith into a developer who has ditched experienced players.

[menace-uk-]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

Thing is. I am not talking about these issues from the perspective of a "veteran air whore", who will be hit by the changes. This affects negatively air play for everyone. New players will be in a world of hurt because they will not be able to escape or hide from the vets. And vets will have to start baseraping in order to make sure they won't be targeted from halfway across the map. There is no doubt that everyone will adapt sooner or later. The question is- will the people adapt in a way DICE intended them to, and if they will adapt in a way which wouldn't break the game. DICE have shown to be incapable of seeing consequences of their changes past just a few days. In order for air aspect to work under new circumstances, you would have to change up things which may not be associated with flying directly.

Anarchy, I wouldn't put much faith into a developer who has ditched experienced players.

You may not be but have seen many a posts all over the web doing it. As I stated in my previous post that comment wasn't aimed at you.

New comers, LOL. Sorry but BF 2 was no cake walk and the FOW didn't really help when starting out. Experienced players would still whoop you with ease. As for Adapting the way Dice Intended, Who knows. The BETA should give a insight to this.

I also don't understand the last comment ? If all you want is BF2 air combat then go play BF 2. Games evolve and change iteration to iteration and now you have a whole new set of challenges to overcome and conquer.

You should just be happy Jets are back in after the horrible 2142 and the lacking/toned down BC 2.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

New comers, LOL. Sorry but BF 2 was no cake walk and the FOW didn't really help when starting out. Experienced players would still whoop you with ease.

It was nearly impossible for new players to take out experienced ones in BF2. That is largely due to two factors. BF2 air to air relies on experience and mastering as it's a pure PvP environment with few luck based factors. Secondly, limited FOV and using views in general gave an upper hand to those who had gamesense, knew maps, how pilots navigated those maps. But, new players could still use the fog of war, clouds and stratorun to disengage from a fight and run away. Evading the experienced player was entirely possible and a lot of players opted for that option. In BF3, your only shot would be relying on friendly STA. The real only, single option.

I also don't understand the last comment ? If all you want is BF2 air combat then go play BF 2. Games evolve and change iteration to iteration and now you have a whole new set of challenges to overcome and conquer.

I have to question your intelligence after a suggestion like this. As a gamer in general, you should know that catering to new players and ditching existing concepts without experience to back it up, leads to crap. Case in point, BF2 patch 1.2.

You should just be happy Jets are back in after the horrible 2142 and the lacking/toned down BC 2.

This, aswell as the last quote, shows an attitude supporting the development of crappy games. Seriously. "Just be happy" shows a community/fan with no backbone. We want out games to be awesome, good, balanced, and with longetivity. Because we pay 50 bucks for them, and if the developer chooses to use (and oftentimes, abuse) the brandname which has created certain expectations, it's in poor taste to piss on those expectations. Not to sound like someone who demands without having common sense (yeah, no need to give me the "they are making money" speech, I've heard it before), but we're talking about franchises with fanbases which became regular customers because they find exactly what they want from that particular product. And, I doubt BF3 will have a demo to try the game out to make up ones mind.

[Vreki]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

All I have to say is, DICE has been testing and balancing the game for months. I trust them to work out AA and jet balancing since they are the ones actually playing the game. If it is wrong, we can complain during the beta as they have shown they are listening to community feedback this time.

Exactly. And this time around, they have plenty of tools for balancing Air vs Ground.
I wouldnt be surprised if Jets starts out a bit nerfed. After all they have their past againt them, and its better to ruin one vehicle than a whole map.
But that can be fixed once DICE sees how the game plays out. Some may have left the game before that, but that is their loss. Its not like there is nothing else to do in the game.

[CptainCrunch]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

Also, they love their data sheets now. They see a high ratio of jets to death and its "NERF ALL THE AA THINGS!"

Crunch

[menace-uk-]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

All I have to say is, DICE has been testing and balancing the game for months. I trust them to work out AA and jet balancing since they are the ones actually playing the game. If it is wrong, we can complain during the beta as they have shown they are listening to community feedback this time.

Should have been in the Alpha IMO.

Games generally go gold 4 weeks from release if not earlier. This casts many doubts over much being fixed from BETA feedback before launch day.

[*FMJ*Power]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

dont kid yourselves for a second, the "BETA" will be nothing more than a glorified pay to play demo, just like it was for BFBC2, all the battlefield games had a demo a month before release day......now they are betas and one must fork over some cash if they wish to be involved. I really dont think too many balances will be addressed in the "BETA"

[CptainCrunch]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

Really? Because of the beta in BC2 there was a day one patch that addressed issues. I guess that doesnt count? Same for being able to cancel your pre-order after playing the "BETA", making it free. Same goes for those that had MoH access to it. They dont have to do anything.

Oh yeah, and the "BETA" is open to the public. How much are they paying for it?

Crunch

[MrChris_CJ]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

apparently the helis can shoot down a jet pretty well also hehe

I would wait a bit more and see before making any conclusions although Chris does make some valid points

I think we will have to get a look at the total list of air vehicle customisations as well

because stuff like air radar etc etc (and Stealth?) makes you wonder

[*FMJ*Power]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

Really? Because of the beta in BC2 there was a day one patch that addressed issues. I guess that doesnt count? Same for being able to cancel your pre-order after playing the "BETA", making it free. Same goes for those that had MoH access to it. They dont have to do anything.

Oh yeah, and the "BETA" is open to the public. How much are they paying for it?

Crunch

yep, and they did the same thing for BFV and BF1942....... but they didn't try to make a buck off it or use it as a carrot to dangle, they valued all gamers opinions, not just the ones that bought directly though EA.....you only get beta access if you preorder directly from EA or bought medal of honor directly through EA...the beta might be open but access to it wont be nor was it ever for BFBC2, you only got into that through combat testing or if you forked over some cash for a file planet account or if you knew someone. It's just ludicrous to call something a beta but then only give access to people who already bought the game.............there were NEVER any balance issues addressed through the BFBC2 beta, that didn't come until the second patch after the game was out and player counts were significantly higher than the beta.

As for jet balance, i do have some faith, I'm sure there's gonna be some kind of spotting limitation in jets or spotted enemy view limitation so jets aren't hosing infantry from across the map.

[-Shifty-]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

Imagine if the F/A 18s could get rocket pods. Imagine the across-the-map red-triangle spammage! *epicface*

I kid I kid...

I wonder what the air-to-ground and air-to-air load outs we'll have to choose from will be for jets.

[Vreki]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

AFAIK the beta is open to all, preorders just get a 48 hours early access