New Trailer ... Jets!

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

What? A lot of the patches did fix a lot of issues. There are still issues, just like the ones in BF2 are still there after 6 years. Just like the pisspoor nerfing of some of the weapons, C4, and the J10.

That's exactly what will happen to BF3. Beta or no beta.

You are right about the demo/beta comment though. At least DICE does something whereas CoD has gone to no longer doing anything other than releasing it. Though the weak excuse it may be.

So DICE is a better developer because they allow for public betas? CoD is a completely different game these days.

And Power, for some reason, thinks you have to buy something to get into the beta and is wrong. In fact, he just seems upset about that fact more than anything else. The BF3 alpha has already showed adjustments and balancing because of it.

You get a 48 hour "advantage", and we're talking about a *beta test*. It shows their intent. And he is fully right.

And yeah, BC2 still has 3d spotting. Good thing otherwise there would be nothing at all. They added the commo rose in BF3 AFTER listening to people from the alpha.

The reaction to the bolded part is - "what?".
We've been asking for independant mouselook since BF1942. I won't even start listing features which were obviously gamebreaking, and which DICE didn't fix for years. Even though the community had long since figured out the fixes. I trust competitive players' judgement in that regard. They know how to abuse the game. Yet DICE relies on people who don't take their game to the limits, for testing. 6 man squads were at least as important of a function as the commo rose. We will still get 4 man squads without squadleaders.

I think you are very observent on BF3, its a shame I am too much of a fanboy to communicate reliably on BF2.

I see no critical thinking. I see a submissive attitude and blind faith in a developer who has failed to deliver in full in the past.

[EDIT]
No automerge anymore?

And I could not pass the opportunity to show what EA thinks their betas are-

About EA Beta's

EA beta's allow you to get early access to games before anyone else. There is limited availability though so check back often.

[menace-uk-]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

So not only is it a pay to play demo (since when did it became reasonable to select betatesters for their wallets?), it is factually a glorified demo?

Beta has long since became another term for "demo".

LOL

It isn't pay to play at all. It is free and Open. The early access is for pre-ordering and lets face it those pre-ordering were buying the game any way.

[CptainCrunch]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

That's exactly what will happen to BF3. Beta or no beta.

What? That it will get nerfed and patched? I would think so. Every Battlefield series has and I dont see any reason DICE would stop that any time. If they listen to the community, good or bad, then yeah, it will.

So DICE is a better developer because they allow for public betas? CoD is a completely different game these days.

Thats why I said weak excuse. Just because they release a beta and probably no demo, doesnt mean they are doing anything different from anyone else, such as your CoD4 example, which Activision stopped doing back at MW2. Also, when CoD4 was out the hit detection was very flawed and they would not listen to the community about it until videos started to be released.

You get a 48 hour "advantage", and we're talking about a *beta test*. It shows their intent. And he is fully right.

You get two days to play a game that will end up being erased. Two days based on incentive because of a purchase prior. Two days out of a week. More than likely one map with limited weapons and rank. His statement was you dont get in the beta unless you pay (period) and he is wrong. He is correct about the past though. Now if DICE makes it so that it is not a truly open beta and they add limitations such as "Open to Origin Pre-Purchase Only", then he would be correct. However, DICE has stated that the beta is open. You will probably download Origin and select the Beta for download and you are off and running. Its not a blind faith thing, its what they said and there is nothing else to go by.

The reaction to the bolded part is - "what?".
We've been asking for independant mouselook since BF1942. I won't even start listing features which were obviously gamebreaking, and which DICE didn't fix for years. Even though the community had long since figured out the fixes. I trust competitive players' judgement in that regard. They know how to abuse the game. Yet DICE relies on people who don't take their game to the limits, for testing. 6 man squads were at least as important of a function as the commo rose. We will still get 4 man squads without squadleaders.

You're statement was " They still have 3D spotting, don't they? Still? And how long did it take for them to get somesort of a commorose back in? " and was in response to LordSethonan on the BC2 beta. BC2 only has 3D spotting and if that was removed then there would be nothing to spot with. Did you mean that for BF3 having 3d spotting? Yeah, they added it back in BF3, after the comments from the alpha testing by the community said they should add it back and the 3d spotting wasnt working out. Was BC2s spotting great? NOOOOO, but that was what was there and I used it the best I could, kinda like the AA in BF2.

I see no critical thinking. I see a submissive attitude and blind faith in a developer who has failed to deliver in full in the past.

I think everyone here has brought up negatives about BF3 and have not just jumped on the bandwagon. There isn't much to go by at the moment and I am sure some are happy that the jets may not work well. When I posted up the video showing the actual footage, though poor footage it was, there were comments about what they didnt like. No developer is perfect and there are going to be things that need to be fixed down the road. Bugs will be in the game. Glitches will be found. Thats gaming and how it is. Good or bad. To hold BF3 up as a glorious beacon of light is just as false as holding BF2 up as that. Can we hold to aspects of a game to say "This is the part that made it the game"? Sure, however, not everyone is going to agree on that.

[EDIT]
No automerge anymore?

And I could not pass the opportunity to show what EA thinks their betas are-

About EA Beta's

EA beta's allow you to get early access to games before anyone else. There is limited availability though so check back often.

Does it not allow you to do that? You can't beta test a game you do not have access to. Combat Testing allows you to have access to the game before anyone else. Gamespy allows you to have access to the game before anyone else. Pre-Order from Best Buy allows you to have access to weapons before anyone else. Pre-Order from Amazon allows you to have dog tags like no one else. All is limited. Thats what makes it fun to beta test something for free. To say you got to do it. What I want to see is the NDA for the beta because the alpha stated that as well as being expected to submit bugs and comments as well as play the game.

Anyway, all this doesnt matter anyhow. Your other comments show that you have very specific expectations and that DICE will fail to meet them, regardless of the outcome. They failed in the past and thats why you went to mods. I dont think any of my posts in the past has ever changed your mind on anything and I dont really expect this one to either.

I like quotes too:

“When one door closes another door opens; but we so often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not see the ones which open for us.”

“We can never turn back the pages of time, though we may wish to relive a happy moment, or say goodbye just one last time, we never can, because the sands of time continue to fall, and we can’t turn the hourglass over.”

“Change is never easy, you fight to hold on, and you fight to let go.”

“There’s no need to miss someone from your past- There’s a reason they didn’t make it to your future”

“Hanging onto resentment is letting someone you despise live rent-free in your head.”

“Success seems to be connected with action. Successful people keep moving. They make mistakes, but they don't quit.”

“Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.”

Crunch

[Lordsethonan]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

I meant; what method do you propose to choose beta testers? As no matter what no one will be pleased.

Closed beta, open beta, demo with feedback; call it what you will, in the current state of GAMING, not just on PC, but on console as well, every body treats betas as demos; the first argument is "WONT BUY!" followed by a lethany of calling the developers sucky and crappy.

and if we let only the elite to test, we will end up with a reskinned CS (and we are getting a reskinned CS anyways next year). Or worse yet, BF2 part 2.

Project Reality might have fixed a lot of things, but the end result is nothing like BF2, what about us that wanted BF2 just fixed? I dont think the solution is buying a 50 dollar game so I can play a mod two years later; I'd much rather have an experience like BC2 (not the exact same game mind you) in wich th egame is good out of the gate and just needs refinement for precisely the things people will abuse.

Like I said, th eproblem with BC2 was we didn't get all of the unlocks to test so we learned on the go, that a lot of weapons got broken once you put magnum ammo on and that the carl gustav was just TOO good with explosive ordinance.

[Minmaster]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

i don't think redfield will ever be happy with future BF games.

[CptainCrunch]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

He wasnt happy with past ones. It took mods to fix the game the way it should have been.

Crunch

[Lordsethonan]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

I am starting to think he just doesn't like DICE's games.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

What? That it will get nerfed and patched? I would think so. Every Battlefield series has and I dont see any reason DICE would stop that any time. If they listen to the community, good or bad, then yeah, it will.

That they will be poorly patched, nerfed just for nerfing sake, or god forbid, "fixed" (read: fucked up) 6 years later. Listening to the community is what they have been doing indeed. But applying a sense of criticizm, common sense, logic while implementing certain suggestions, either 3 or 6 years down the line, has come with it's toll. IO mode without light vehicles. J10. AA missiles in patch 1.2. Jet's hitbox meshes. Prone delay which makes the game feel restrictive and irritating (refer to COD4, here, how it's done), et cetera. They listen to the most vocal minority, and it appears they don't listen to seasoned players who look past themselves and their own interest when they suggest something.

Thats why I said weak excuse. Just because they release a beta and probably no demo, doesnt mean they are doing anything different from anyone else, such as your CoD4 example, which Activision stopped doing back at MW2. Also, when CoD4 was out the hit detection was very flawed and they would not listen to the community about it until videos started to be released.

COD4 hit detection was excellent outside the box. What are you talking about? I played the game since day 1, and I don't remember anyone, ever talking about bad hit detection. There was one exception, last week, actually though. And why are you throwing COD4 and MW2 into the same bin? For most COD PC players, these are two completely different games, in all their aspects. COD4 had a singe player demo, a closed beta, and that's it. Using MW2 as an example here doesn't make any sense when both the businessmodel and fundamentals of the game changed radically.

Just because the industry does it, doesn't mean it's right. Betas used to be done for public testing of the game to iron out the bugs and make final changes and fixes to the game. As a gamer, I am glad that I get to play the game for free before it's released. But as someone who treats gaming as his hobby, and values much more in his games than just graphics and .JPEG medals, I look a few steps ahead and worry about how this game is going to play out in the long run. Do I have to deal with problems or can I enjoy a great game.

You get two days to play a game that will end up being erased. Two days based on incentive because of a purchase prior. Two days out of a week. More than likely one map with limited weapons and rank. His statement was you dont get in the beta unless you pay (period) and he is wrong. He is correct about the past though.

That's not the point. Giving away exclusive rights for money, instead of skill, experience and knowledge, to *test* a game, shows that their intention is to secure future sales, instead of actually using the community to look for issues they themselves may have missed. And considering it's DICE, they will miss a lot.

You're statement was " They still have 3D spotting, don't they? Still? And how long did it take for them to get somesort of a commorose back in? " and was in response to LordSethonan on the BC2 beta. BC2 only has 3D spotting and if that was removed then there would be nothing to spot with. Did you mean that for BF3 having 3d spotting? Yeah, they added it back in BF3, after the comments from the alpha testing by the community said they should add it back and the 3d spotting wasnt working out. Was BC2s spotting great? NOOOOO, but that was what was there and I used it the best I could, kinda like the AA in BF2.

Nothing to spot with? You have icons on the minimap. You don't need them on your screen. That's 3D spotting. They have the same thing in P4F. Still.

I think everyone here has brought up negatives about BF3 and have not just jumped on the bandwagon. There isn't much to go by at the moment and I am sure some are happy that the jets may not work well. When I posted up the video showing the actual footage, though poor footage it was, there were comments about what they didnt like. No developer is perfect and there are going to be things that need to be fixed down the road. Bugs will be in the game. Glitches will be found. Thats gaming and how it is. Good or bad. To hold BF3 up as a glorious beacon of light is just as false as holding BF2 up as that. Can we hold to aspects of a game to say "This is the part that made it the game"? Sure, however, not everyone is going to agree on that.

The only thing which I saw people comment on, was jets speed. Don't kid yourself, most of the community was looking at how awesome the footage has been so far. With exception of 3D spotting and jets speed, I have yet to see people actually checking the vids for potentially or actually exploitable issues, or obvious issues which might appear. It's important, it's important this game will come out as balanced and as "fixed" as possible. Because we've all played BF2, and we all know how bad it got as peoples skill level increased. The game became a nightmare for new players to get in.

Does it not allow you to do that? You can't beta test a game you do not have access to. Combat Testing allows you to have access to the game before anyone else. Gamespy allows you to have access to the game before anyone else. Pre-Order from Best Buy allows you to have access to weapons before anyone else. Pre-Order from Amazon allows you to have dog tags like no one else. All is limited. Thats what makes it fun to beta test something for free. To say you got to do it. What I want to see is the NDA for the beta because the alpha stated that as well as being expected to submit bugs and comments as well as play the game.

I don't have a problem with items you get access to by preordering the game. I have a problem with promoting a testing phaze of the game as a demo.

Anyway, all this doesnt matter anyhow. Your other comments show that you have very specific expectations and that DICE will fail to meet them, regardless of the outcome. They failed in the past and thats why you went to mods. I dont think any of my posts in the past has ever changed your mind on anything and I dont really expect this one to either.

Because the issues were obvious and glaring. Random deviation, hit detection, vehicular imbalance, et cetera. These were integrated parts of BF2 which we had to get used to. Saying that I have too high expectations which cannot be met is inaccurate. I'm just not willing to give credit before I have tried the game, because apart from saying "it looks good", there is nothing much to say at this point.

“When one door closes another door opens; but we so often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not see the ones which open for us.”

“We can never turn back the pages of time, though we may wish to relive a happy moment, or say goodbye just one last time, we never can, because the sands of time continue to fall, and we can’t turn the hourglass over.”

“Change is never easy, you fight to hold on, and you fight to let go.”

“There’s no need to miss someone from your past- There’s a reason they didn’t make it to your future”

“Hanging onto resentment is letting someone you despise live rent-free in your head.”

“Success seems to be connected with action. Successful people keep moving. They make mistakes, but they don't quit.”

“Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.”

The funny thing is that if we put this into context, I have been able to change my game, style much more. Adapt to changing game without quitting on it. I am not a BF fanboy. A fan, yes, but not without critical judgement.


Lordsethonan, why are you bringing PR into this? PR is a completely different game. If you want to talk about mods which stayed true to BF spirit, we should discuss POE2. Battlefield 2 Le Fixed.

[CptainCrunch]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

COD4 hit detection was excellent outside the box. What are you talking about? I played the game since day 1, and I don't remember anyone, ever talking about bad hit detection. There was one exception, last week, actually though. And why are you throwing COD4 and MW2 into the same bin? For most COD PC players, these are two completely different games, in all their aspects. COD4 had a singe player demo, a closed beta, and that's it. Using MW2 as an example here doesn't make any sense when both the businessmodel and fundamentals of the game changed radically.

Im talking about this:

http://www.tech-forums.net/pc/f15/cod4-sniping-hit-detection-proof-159982/

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/960189-/57931219

http://forums.majorleaguegaming.com/topic/66222-cod4-hit-detection/

http://n4g.com/news/68763/cod4-not-yet-gold-hit-detection-to-be-improved/com

http://www.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1562064&sid=ddda9ede16afbd13321b37f908669f36

There were a number of threads here as well, unfortunatly that LOL OWNED hack took those away. There was even a video of two guys that tested it with LMGs where when the guy being shot would look down and the other guy would fire right into his head and nothing would happen. Now that its been so many years, a lot of this is gone and people have taken down their posts and videos of the issue.

Crunch

[*FMJ*Power]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

It seems that Power is the only one who doesn't have memory issues. Everyone else is running around like a blindfolded fanboy.

ohh dont get me wrong chris, I think air power is one of my most favored assets in the entire battlefield series, ever since my first wing-clip on wake in the 42 demo I'm just a realist, and shooting orange triangles from a vehicle HUD is not skill in my book, it's a much more meaningful kill when one uses their skill set, experience and eagle eyes to spot enemies or dogfight to the death or to truly support the team and infantry with targeted strafing runs and diversionary passes, those traits and tactics have all but disappeared any more in this new era of battlefield, i just dont see the team work happening and i think DICE does as well so they dont want the game to rely TOO much on strict orientated teamwork, if they loose that "jump in and fly" aspect they will loose player counts and slow down battles.

Some of my fondest battlefield memories involved being in the air in one way or another, and i would hazard a guess most people commenting in this thread have a similar feeling or experience hence it's such intricate and passionate part of the game to discuss, especially after being denied wings and that big open map feeling in BFBC2......gawd how I miss that huge open map feel of open assaults on multiple points, true sandbox battles.

Let's face it skilled pilots have ruled the battlefield since 42, I dont think that's ever gonna change and I'm not sure it should, an ace pilot can turn the battle for a piss poor team. Good pilots will memorize every map like the back of their hand, learn every trick, every hiding spot to bomb, every building they should flatten and just how high they need to fly to avoid the AA of spam at spotted enemy targets, it's just the nature of the beat, providing a platform that has the ability to deliver such a dominate K/D ratio will inherently attract a number of Dbag selfish player along with the few "gems" that are truly skilled and team orientated pilots.

I just cant wait to strap in and hit the skies and after the long absence of a set of wings on the battlefield I'll deal with just about anything, not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

Crunch, one question. Why are you showing me COD4 XBL and COD:BO threads?

Power, I'll try to be up there, stopping you from bombing my team. I assume TacticalGamer will have a BF3 server up as soon as the game is released?

[Mtrooper]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

I know I'm late to the party but I for one am honestly a bit happy that they are making jets a bit more "noob friendly" in BF3. I spent most of my time on the ground in BF2 because by the time I got into the game it was already dominated by ace pilots. I always did want to fly but the only real way to learn is practice; practice that was impossible due to the facts that you know you would only hurt your team in the short term and that everyone good with jets would rage. That being said when 2142 launched I managed to become good at the gunships (although the skill bar was far lower). I am eagerly awaiting a fresh start with jets in BF3. I think that if the jets are handled is changed it would be a benefit so the old aces would have a similar learning curve to a novice.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

When I started playing BF2, my experience with flying was limited to a few hundred hours in MSFS. Needless to say, I was shot down with relative ease. You practice flying in low-player servers or offline servers until you can adequately help your team. Practice against "aces" comes later.

[-Shifty-]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

I got into BF2 very late in the game. I did eventually progress to an above-average pilot. That meaning J10s on Wake were no longer an issue. Unfortunately I won't be able to play this game from release like I have with most every game I've owned since BF2142, so I will miss out on the original game and end up getting the nerfed version.

Unless I can come up with $1000 really quick.

[CptainCrunch]

Re: New Trailer ... Jets!

Crunch, one question. Why are you showing me COD4 XBL and COD:BO threads?

Power, I'll try to be up there, stopping you from bombing my team. I assume TacticalGamer will have a BF3 server up as soon as the game is released?

Because all platforms had the same issue during the beta and at launch and since PC sites tend to die quickly and ours was hacked, there isnt much else to show you. If you like, you are more than welcome to type "CoD4 hit registration issues" and go through the list.

But since you never heard of this ever before, I suppose it doesnt matter and didnt really happen anyway. So I wouldnt really worry about it.

Crunch