*JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

[Kapukluk]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

OP, you keep on trying to fight a losing arguement.... "All the people arguing with me are jet whores" I have spent about 10 hours in a jet (tops) I have maybe... 100 kills? Must be a whore!

You want jets to be USELESS so you can own all alone in your chopper.... Make minimal adjustments to multiple areas that will weaken jets and you get a good balanced game....

Slightly more range and strength for AA missile sites.
Slightly less armor for jets.
Slightly less ammo.
Slightly less rearming/repair times.

That would limit a jet enough to render it a regular vehicle, but it would not make it as much of a killing machine as a buggy.....

If you dont like jets... then play Sharqi, you can still whore the chopper there!

As far as choppers being owned by jets..... I always get owned by tanks as infantry, but that is the natural cycle! Do I whine and sniffle and cry about it? No.... tanks are a part of the game and they deserve a place In the game. Same thing with coppers and jets....

Agreed!

[dtaker]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Actually, to put this into a very scary perspective. Real life F-35 is armed with the 6000 rounds per minute 20mm (m61) vulcan gattling cannon. This is the same gun on the insane CIWS mounted in the aircraft carrier in Dalian Plant!! The vulcan takes 0.3 seconds to spin to top speed before firing, and this is not what happens in f-35 in BF2. Real life description and sound exactly matches that of the BF2 CIWS. Therefore, the f-35 it's not armed with the same potent canon in the carrier.

Russian and Chinese jets usually carry more potent 23-30 mm gattling cannons of similar fire rates but much less ammo carried.

So everyone must be happy that jets in BF2 is heavily derrated versions already!

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Wow... just wow.

You jump into this thread, whine because youre too dumb to challenge jets, regardless of the fact that you claim to be experienced. And when you get put into your place, you somehow magically try to make it appear as if you planned this little intraweb troll-expedition.

This is amazing. Delusional kids roaming across the net has always been a rather humorous sight.

dtaker. F35B is shooting at 600 RPM right now. The changes I would do to cannon, would be to decrease splash damage to minimum.

[Batausu]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Some people (mostly planewhores) are saying air to ground fighting is balanced.
Look at their stats: they have played more than 1000h, but have less than 1h in an AA site. This is easy to understand. Why use an ineffective weapon?!
I'll try to present here some thoughts about two average people on opposite teams (let's say of "equal" skill, for demonstrative purposes), who are fighting each other on an air map.
We have one player who chooses to fight in a jet, while the other player chooses any other vehicle (but not a plane) or on foot.
Weapons:
Pilot's weapons at his disposal are very powerful and effective vs. anything.
Cannons have high rate of fire, high damage and hits are in direct relation to the pilot's skill.
Bombs are essentially one shot kill, also hits are skill related. High splash damage is ensuring the kill even without a direct hit (noob friendly). No luck involved.
Non-pilot's weapons:
- if not in a vehicle – only M95 and AT can realistically threaten a jet. If the jet is in the air, chances to hit are almost zero. This isn't the right way to fight a jet while on the ground…
- if in a vehicle (other than a dedicated AA), most rockets can destroy a jet. MG also does damage to jets, but the damage is small and the probability to hit is very low. Not impossible, though (I did it on occasions and even killed a bomber, because of it's slower speed).
I remember in 500h of playing I killed a F35 with a tank round (just once!). My most lucky shot! Others have used TV missiles to shoot down jets. It's possible, but highly unlikely. Yes, one shot kill, but given the probability to get one lucky shot, it's negligible.
You'll get better chances in a dedicated AA vehicle. Cannons and missiles are pretty good, but still less effective than jet's weapons. Not one shot kill, though.
Unfortunately, some maps don't have these AA vehicles.
- in stationary AA site: missile's damage is 1/3 of a jet's health. Hits are related to lock on time , which is related to time of jets exposure to the site. Also, hits have a ping related probability and are no skill related. The only way skill can be involved is when locking on target, after that, it's just luck.
Because the distance needed to get a lock on is small, a jet has always the advantage over it.
- Essex AA has the advantage of high rate of fire cannons, but looses the advantage of SAM effectiveness. 50/50 chances against a jet, if the player knows where the jet is coming from and he's using cannons. This is the best chance a non-pilot can get in this game against a jet, one on one!
Area of attack and speed:
A pilot can attack everywhere within the boundaries of the map. Highest speed on the battlefield.
Non-pilot's area of attack depends on the vehicle he chooses.
- a chopper has the same area as a jet, but it's speed is much lower.
- an APC has less area of attack than a chopper, because there are some places it can't go, but has the advantage over other vehicles that can go over water. Average speed.
- any other vehicle it’s restricted to land only (except the boat, but is has no protection and no means of attack). Speed is depending on the vehicle, inverse proportional to armor.
- a player can go on foot almost anywhere, but slow speed makes it pointless in comparison to a jet.
Awareness:
The pilot has a box over the enemy vehicle (or AA site), so he knows every time where his target is. Maximum awareness.
The pilot can't see a player on foot, but after all, what threat is someone on foot?!
The non-pilot on foot can hear and see a jet flying over him, but again, what can he do against it? Nothing really.
If he gets in a vehicle, he has no knowledge of the jet's position on his radar, except when it has been spotted. Even then, because of a jet's superior speed, this awareness is of much less use than of the pilot's.
Same thing in an AA site, the non-pilot has no knowledge of the enemy, while the pilot has the element of surprise.
Reload and repairs:
The pilot can easily reload and repair his jet just by flying over an airfield. Couldn't be any easier than that!
The non-pilot needs a supply crate. Less available than an airfield (which is always there, except when it's captured).
Conclusion:
We can see that a pilot has every advantage possible against a non-pilot:
- One shot kill bombs;
- High damage and high rate of fire cannons.
- His chances to hit the opponent are dependant on skill, rather than luck and ping is less important;
- Highest speed;
- All map area of attack availability;
- Maximum level of information about targets;
- Reload and repairs are as easy as fly-by over an airfield.
Good luck, ground soldiers! You're going to need it!
You have three options: play non-air maps, play IO or become pilots yourselves!

[dtaker]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Reload and repairs:
The pilot can easily reload and repair his jet just by flying over an airfield. Couldn't be any easier than that!
The non-pilot needs a supply crate. Less available than an airfield (which is always there, except when it's captured).
Conclusion:
We can see that a pilot has every advantage possible against a non-pilot:
- One shot kill bombs;
- High damage and high rate of fire cannons.
- His chances to hit the opponent are dependant on skill, rather than luck and ping is less important;
- Highest speed;
- All map area of attack availability;
- Maximum level of information about targets;
- Reload and repairs are as easy as fly-by over an airfield.
Good luck, ground soldiers! You're going to need it!
You have three options: play non-air maps, play IO or become pilots yourselves!

Repair and resupply, I guess that's one thing that should've been disallowed to jets, actually, I feel like they need to land in an airfield and get serviced by support crews, much like tanks and other land vehicles would..

And I guess, play non air-maps if you don't like Air assets, even in real life in a non-urban, usually 'open' battlefield with little possibilities of collateral or civilian casualties. The presence of enemy Air will render ground units impotent, you can just imagine the looks of this troops. The problem with real life, is you can't just simply respawn in a different server, you have to wait it out or be extremely cautious

Seriously, even in real life, if you're planning to join any armed force, you're better off in the airforce, flying the fighter jets in particular. They get the best conditions and treatment in war.

[Kaimahi]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Wow... just wow.

You jump into this thread, whine because youre too dumb to challenge jets, regardless of the fact that you claim to be experienced. And when you get put into your place, you somehow magically try to make it appear as if you planned this little intraweb troll-expedition.

This is amazing. Delusional kids roaming across the net has always been a rather humorous sight.

dtaker. F35B is shooting at 600 RPM right now. The changes I would do to cannon, would be to decrease splash damage to minimum.

LOL you are so predictable, generic intellect and ageist insults gets you -1 because I covered these types of insults myself in my first post.

Put me in my place huh? ROFL this time!, I'm crying with laughter you made me choke on my drink as it came out my nose!

Ok I promised I would not post again but mocking you is like a drug, I must not look at this thread again, I must not look at this thread again even though I am sure you will post to get the last word in...or not to try and prove to yourself you were in control of this converation (there's some easy ammo for you to twist, enjoy!)

[WNx Makka99]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

ok...nice ideas man....not....i didnt even read your post

i take that back

not really

dude it sounds like you have been traumatised by a lot of jets in the past.....save your anger for the battlefield

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Lots and lots of bullsh!t.

Some people (mostly planewhores) are saying air to ground fighting is balanced.

Nobody is saying its balanced, except for inexperienced players. What "planewhores" are saying that STA can be used effectively.

Look at their stats: they have played more than 1000h, but have less than 1h in an AA site. This is easy to understand. Why use an ineffective weapon?!

They have 1000h in a jet and 1h in STA because they think STA is boring. You fail again.
On the similar note, no complaining infnatry player has more than 1 hour in STA, and they are saying its inbalanced. Its like saying Medics M16 is inbalanced against Assault M16 simply because theyve played both of the weapons for a minute.

Weapons:
Pilot's weapons at his disposal are very powerful and effective vs. anything.
Cannons have high rate of fire, high damage and hits are in direct relation to the pilot's skill.
Bombs are essentially one shot kill, also hits are skill related. High splash damage is ensuring the kill even without a direct hit (noob friendly). No luck involved.

Wrong. For inexperienced pilots using bombs always involves luck. For experienced pilots. Its 100% skill. Pilots weaponry is also limited by their presence on the field, which is a one pinch every 30-60 seconds. During those 30-60 seconds one can cap an entire flag and return to safety without being in the harms way.

Non-pilot's weapons:
- if not in a vehicle – only M95 and AT can realistically threaten a jet. If the jet is in the air, chances to hit are almost zero. This isn't the right way to fight a jet while on the ground…

If youre not in a vehicle or STA site, you shouldnt even CONSIDER taking on a jet. You should focus on evading one, which is fairly easy. I dont see why this has to be underlined?

- if in a vehicle (other than a dedicated AA), most rockets can destroy a jet. MG also does damage to jets, but the damage is small and the probability to hit is very low. Not impossible, though (I did it on occasions and even killed a bomber, because of it's slower speed).

You can use an APC and a .50 cal very effectively, if you are really interested in getting that skill level up. My absolute worst nightmare was a dedicated jet hunter in a FAV (WTF??!!!), who took my from 100% to RED in a matter of seconds, while I was airbourne in a god damn dogfight! BUT.

If youre not in a vehicle designed to combat a jet, you shouldnt even consider taking on one. You should focus on evasion solely.

You'll get better chances in a dedicated AA vehicle. Cannons and missiles are pretty good, but still less effective than jet's weapons. Not one shot kill, though.

Linebacker kills a jet in 2-3 hits, probably 2. Other STA vehicles can kill a jet almost as fast as Essex turret. I got 28 kills, 50% aerial, using Mobile STA in Kubra Dam.

Unfortunately, some maps don't have these AA vehicles.
- in stationary AA site: missile's damage is 1/3 of a jet's health. Hits are related to lock on time , which is related to time of jets exposure to the site. Also, hits have a ping related probability and are no skill related. The only way skill can be involved is when locking on target, after that, it's just luck.
Because the distance needed to get a lock on is small, a jet has always the advantage over it.

Missiles can deal damage anywhere from 30% to 70%, but yeah, mostly 30%. The hits are not ping related, and the area of effect is 375 metres. Which is a HUGE area. Lock time is 1 second, which is enough. The SHOOTING of the missile is NOT skill affected, but the preparations for the kill ARE solely skill related.

Success is in the collision point between preparation and opportunity.

- Essex AA has the advantage of high rate of fire cannons, but looses the advantage of SAM effectiveness. 50/50 chances against a jet, if the player knows where the jet is coming from and he's using cannons. This is the best chance a non-pilot can get in this game against a jet, one on one!

Using a commander to have a jet spotted out for you, that 50/50 goes 60/40. But cannons are extremely ping-affected.

Area of attack and speed:
A pilot can attack everywhere within the boundaries of the map. Highest speed on the battlefield.

How nice of you to leave out that a pilot can only attack in periods.

Non-pilot's area of attack depends on the vehicle he chooses.
- a chopper has the same area as a jet, but it's speed is much lower.

On a team level, a chopper is more of a threat than a jet because it can sustain constant presence on the field.

- a player can go on foot almost anywhere, but slow speed makes it pointless in comparison to a jet.

Thats why you try to attack nearest flags or wait for a car.

Awareness:
The pilot has a box over the enemy vehicle (or AA site), so he knows every time where his target is. Maximum awareness.

Pilots ATS HUD marker. 375 metre distance, 30 degree cone. Can cover 360 degrees in about 6-8 seconds.

STA ops STA HUD marker. 375 metre distance, 30 degree cone. Can cover 360 degrees in less than a second.

So much for "maximum awareness".

The pilot can't see a player on foot, but after all, what threat is someone on foot?!

Should it be?

The non-pilot on foot can hear and see a jet flying over him, but again, what can he do against it? Nothing really.

Should he?

If he gets in a vehicle, he has no knowledge of the jet's position on his radar, except when it has been spotted. Even then, because of a jet's superior speed, this awareness is of much less use than of the pilot's.

Youre saying as if a pilot sees 360 degrees. Nice "awareness" there. If a jet is spotted, a vehicle can move itsself so it wont appear on the HUD. Just like a jet can escape the coverage zone.

Same thing in an AA site, the non-pilot has no knowledge of the enemy, while the pilot has the element of surprise.

No it hasnt. If the STA is NOT occupied, the pilot never knows which STA is occupied by the enemy.

Reload and repairs:
The pilot can easily reload and repair his jet just by flying over an airfield. Couldn't be any easier than that!

A jet is repaired by 3 bars. Cant be any easier? Yeah right.

The non-pilot needs a supply crate. Less available than an airfield (which is always there, except when it's captured).

A nonpilot can use CRATES, ENGINEERS, MEDICS, ENEMY CRATES, SUPPORT players, anywhere on the field. A non-jet is much less dependant on an airfield.

[Batausu]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Nobody is saying its balanced, except for inexperienced players.

I'm glad we agree. It's all that matters. :)
And thanks for making some of my points clearer, with your addition of technical data.

[Kapukluk]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

I stopped playing the game because of all the servers that kick for attacking the non-caps. Including keeping the enemies jets grounded via heli-bashing. Anyway, goes on to play BF2142.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

I'm glad we agree. It's all that matters. :)
And thanks for making some of my points clearer, with your addition of technical data.

The thing is, if you set a 100h pilot against a 100h STA operator, the pilot will most probably get either killed, or his input will be severely limited.

On infantry level, even though AT player is a natural threat to a tank, a AT player who has less experience at his job than the tanker at his, will be killed.

This is PvP game balance. Skill matters a lot.

[Batausu]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

The thing is, if you set a 100h pilot against a 100h STA operator, the pilot will most probably get either killed, or his input will be severely limited.

Do you have any proof to support this statement?
In fact, since you have already admitted you have negligible time in STA, your statements carry no weight. You are just a newbie to STA war.
Talking about jets and writing tutorials about flying is a nice thing to do and I respect that. You have a lot of experience in the air. But what do you know about STA? That ground to air missiles are occasionally hitting your jet?! How many times have you been shot down, though?! This is what makes a weapon effective: killings. Hitting is not enough.

On infantry level, even though AT player is a natural threat to a tank, a AT player who has less experience at his job than the tanker at his, will be killed.
This is PvP game balance. Skill matters a lot.

Of course skill matters! Who said otherwise?!
I thought we have already covered this. There is less skill involved in STA than any other activity (while flying is at the opposite end!). You are at the mercy of ping and collisions detection.
I'm speaking out of my 21h experience in STA so far. I've spent whole rounds in AA sites on Wake, just to help my team get to ground or to put a little pressure on J10. I've been killed many times by jets and I've also had my good share of kills.
I have to admit, STA missiles are better now, but still not good enough to make up for the imbalance.
I propose to you a little experiment: go play some rounds on any air maps you like and dedicate yourself to fighting jets, but without flying. Count your deaths and your kills from jets alone and find out what your KDR vs. jets is. This is the air vs. ground balance we are talking about here.
The more time you'll spend doing this using various weapons, the more accurate the result will be.
In the end, you'll lose some time, but you'll gain some knowledge on the subject.
You could share it with us later. Fair enough?

[imported_Bull3t]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

There is no "Imbalanced jet", So what if the J10 is manuvurable. The game is based off of real-time modern war fare.

I have heard people cry because whenever they are shooting at a Jet, Heli or anything with a heat source and it misses and goes on to the next heat source wheither it is a team mate/'s or a enemy it is going to hit it.

Either way, It's based of real Modern War Fare, And that show's you what the J10 is capiable of.

So think agian.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Do you have any proof to support this statement?

Experience, common sense and a little touch of putting things in order.

In fact, since you have already admitted you have negligible time in STA, your statements carry no weight. You are just a newbie to STA war.

The fvck? Where have I admitted that I have negligible time in STA? I wouldnt be even posting anything about STA if I didnt have enough time to figure stuff out. This BS right here makes your statements worth nothing. Newbie to STA, yeah right. If anything, everything Ive got in air, enforces my knowledge and skill in STA, not the other way.

Talking about jets and writing tutorials about flying is a nice thing to do and I respect that. You have a lot of experience in the air. But what do you know about STA?

Are you seriously suggesting that all I know is about ATA/ATS and I know nothing about STA? Thats you, not me. I know a LOT about STA. I know enough to use its potential. I knew enough to use it when it didnt track that well. I didnt moan about it. And Ive posted a bunch of tips on how to use STA properly, whereas you are limiting yourself to complaining.

That ground to air missiles are occasionally hitting your jet?! How many times have you been shot down, though?! This is what makes a weapon effective: killings. Hitting is not enough.

STA newbie talk. Get a couple of hours in a jet, to feel the effect of a designated STA operator. STA is effective even if it doesnt hit you. Alarm sound is enough to render STA effective. Every pilot knows now, that red mark and beeping sound means that they have to drop whatever they are doing, drop their flares and bugger the fvck off. Thats 30 seconds time won by one single painting right there. 30 seconds= flare recharge time. Weapons effectiveness isnt illustrated in its killing capcity, but its effect on the targets. Supressive fire is just an example of such potential of a weapon.

I, as a pilot have seen occasions where 2 designated STA operators harassed our team jets. They died enough, but they killed aswell. They told me they were simply bored, but they sat in the STA sites for dozens of minutes, and they did their work well.

Of course skill matters! Who said otherwise?!
I thought we have already covered this. There is less skill involved in STA than any other activity (while flying is at the opposite end!). You are at the mercy of ping and collisions detection.

You dont know what youre talking about here. Ping does not effect STA hit detection, and even if it does, the effect is negligible. Also, its proven that STA hit detection is the fairest of 3 missile types. Essex, STA and ATA, and STA has the best results so far.

Skill in STA does not come from hand- eye coordination. Skill comes from experience and knowing what a pilot sees and does, and acting accordingly to that. Ive got 3:1 KDR in STA, and I expect a merely experienced STA op to get at least 1:1.

I'm speaking out of my 21h experience in STA so far. I've spent whole rounds in AA sites on Wake, just to help my team get to ground or to put a little pressure on J10. I've been killed many times by jets and I've also had my good share of kills.
I have to admit, STA missiles are better now, but still not good enough to make up for the imbalance.

What youre describing, is a 21h guy against a 100+ guy expecting a 1+:1 KDR against a jet. And you think thats balance. Sorry kid. The fact that youre sitting in the STA doesnt grant you a kill. Fact is, if theres a 1000 h guy airbourne, he knows most ways to kill inexperienced STA ops like you. He simply... outplays you. No shame in that. But, the fact that you expect it to be an even fight, theres shame in that.

STA is a counter to air, and a very effective counter at that. I would like some minor adjustments, like STA markers to be taken off the HUD, increase in cannon grouping and decreasing its splash damage to 1 or 0, to make it a more even fight. But truth is, STA can be used as an effective, mercyless weapon that makes the pilots either fight on ground, or finish the round with a less than 30 kills.

1. Experience
2. Teamwork

Pick your choice. These tools are given to you. Just like you cant expect a AT soldier to take out a tank simply by choosing the kit, you cant expect a STA op to take out a jet if he doesnt know how to use it.

I propose to you a little experiment: go play some rounds on any air maps you like and dedicate yourself to fighting jets, but without flying.

Ive done it. And in most cases I finish off with a 1+:1 KDR. Most deaths come from TVGMs and snipers.

In the end, you'll lose some time, but you'll gain some knowledge on the subject.

Man... please.

[Batausu]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Experience, common sense and a little touch of putting things in order…
Newbie to STA, yeah right. If anything, everything Ive got in air, enforces my knowledge and skill in STA, not the other way…
I know a LOT about STA. I know enough to use its potential. I knew enough to use it when it didnt track that well…
Ive got 3:1 KDR in STA…

All this sounds like a desperate cry to me…
Maybe you failed to understand what I asked you before: any PROOF?
You failed to provide any stats. You and everyone here knows who I am. You know how good or bad I am, I'm not ashamed to show my stats and I don't pretend to be any more than an average player who loves this game and plays for fun.
But who are you? I hardly consider you're a real person anymore, playing this game with the rest of us. You could be a bitter 80 years old grandma' for all I know. You could be hiding your disabilities, but still getting your kicks from bragging on-line and pushing people around on forums. Can you prove you're not?!

STA is a counter to air, and a very effective counter at that…
But truth is, STA can be used as an effective, mercyless weapon that makes the pilots either fight on ground, or finish the round with a less than 30 kills…

Does it mean its balanced? I thought you said:

Nobody is saying its balanced, except for inexperienced players.

You are not an inexperienced player, are you? But perhaps you are, we can't tell for sure at this point.
Anyway, I don't know why I expected anything nice from you. All you do is disregard other's opinions. I simply stated some of my experience as STA operator.
I asked you about your experience and your KDR vs. jets. Instead you reply:

… in most cases I finish off with a 1+:1 KDR. Most deaths come from TVGMs and snipers.

Misunderstanding? Maybe. I'd say it's on purpose.
I think you don't want a fair argument, you just need to be right, no matter what.
Let's end this argument right now. I don't care anymore, seeing that only you, me and the other character (talking completely on-topic about how J10 is balanced vs. other jets) are the last posters here. You could make him see the truth, using your 'extensive' experience in jets. Good luck!
Until you have some proof backing up your sayings, I don't fell like paying you any attention from now on. Why should I talk to a totally unknown character, who pretends he knows a "LOT" ?!