*JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

[.Churr.]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Way too much bullsh!t, no counter for my arguments and constant ignoring. I really wont be answering to that shi!t you posted because Ive written the same stuff for 3 times.

Oh really? I've countered all of your arguments, and you cannot conter that. This is just an excuse from somebody that has no more arguments. And I recall commenting all of your statements, while you conveniently ignored some of mine.

I proved that jets don't "fall like a rock" at speeds near 200 km/h.
I proved that a chopper is much more fragile than a jet.
I proved that STA, while somewhat effective against choppers, is not almost useless against jets.
I proved that jets can easily amass a great number of kills with no dying, choppers being included as targets.
I proved that due to lack of weapons against a jet, once a pilot grounds the enemies, he will rule the skies (and the ground) forever.
I proved that there is no other role in BF2 with easier scoring than jet flying. And also that since it's only killing, it's also the less team-oriented, most point farming role.

2. Creating a more skill based system which will also spare choppers from jets missile use, making jets rely more on cannons (made a fullsize topic, created my own jet mod to test it out)

The cannons are already powerful enough.

3. Reduction of jets bomb splash damage radius to make them more of an "anti armor" weapon, rather than anti-infantry.

Good.

4. Increasing jets cannons bullet grouping to make it harder to sniper STA out from visual range.

Good, but not good enough.

5. Reduce missile payload from 6 to 4 and 4 to 2 on fighters and bombers respectively.

Good.

6. Make it so one pass supplies one full unit of certain payloads. If a jet is empty, it should take 3 passes to fully rearm itsself, in the same time, reduce on-strip chopper repair and rearm speed. Repair speed by 2 and rearm speed by 4 times.

This is ridiculous. It is hard enough to save a flaming chopper on pad.

7. Make it so that STA sites are not marked on the HUD.

No difference, skilled jet pilots know exactly where they are and can just shoot them "preventively".

8. Equalize jets hitbox meshes and make it so that STA missiles have an exceptionally high rate of hit, balanced with limited range.

Limited range would be what? A jet ALREADY can get away from AA range quite easily.
A good solution for STA would be bring back 1.2

While my fixes take Battlefield 2 fun dynamics into account, yours dont.

Your fixes are not enough to balance the jet, especially the cannon of doom. I'm hitting this key, the cannon of doom. It's ridiculous to have it make several times the damage of the attack chopper's gun.

Latency affects jets very much. This has to do with missile detection, missile tracking and cannon detection, aswell as defensive reaction to attacks. The ONLY thing unaffected is bombing, for the same reason people enjoy using grenades. Splash damage isnt affected by ping. Direct projectile weapons are.

Do they "pwn" because they are good, or because they fly jets?

The purpose of that was to show you that it is easy to play with a jet even with a high ping, contrary to your statement. And yes, they pwn both because they are good and because they fly jets. They know that they would get owned in any other role.

You see, during my BF2 "career", there has been NO bad pilot reigning over the skies when Im around. This is not bragging because people have beaten me and there are a bunch of better pilots around.

Maybe because you are better than them?
The game is, the better jet+pilot gets lots of kills.

So when a jet does get the kills, its because its supposed to. In fact, any lesser KDR than 10:1 in a jet means the pilot is a rookie. Any lesser KDR in a tank means the driver is a rookie and any lesser KDR than 1:1 on land means the player is a rookie. This is what force multiplier is all about. Certain vehicles act as tools to create better results. And Im talking about offensive tools. A jet is supposed to deliver a punch, and have a high KDR in the process. Its not supposed to die after each bombing.

It punchs hard indeed. It is not what it is "supposed to do", it's imbalance.

STA is a defensive item. Ive shown you the STA map I made for Oman 32. 90% of the area covered, is covered by 2 or more STA sites. This leads to one conclusion and one conclusion only- it was DICEs intention to NOT to make one STA the ultimate answer to all of the air problems.

The key problem with STA is its inefficiency against jets. Did you watch metallica's video? He just killed the STA from far away, as "preventive" measure. Then he raped the jets before they could take off and stand a chance. How is the enemy supposed to fight against that? - Answer me this (????)

By the way:


The screenshot above is from a round yesterday in Sharqi. You see, I am in the US side. I gunned the Cobra for a while and flew that Quick guy. And we effectively negated the Mi-28.
I played 3 rounds, 2 golds and 1 bronze, no Mi-28 rape while I had the AH. And the enemy was not braindead.

[Critical Blue]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Not being funny, but Jets are practically unstoppable in real life anyway... I've never seen the Taleban or Al-Qaeda complain when they see this:





"Oh noes, those damn hacking westerners and their imbalance against us!"




The only planes that have fallen out of the sky in recent times is because:

1) Mechanical failure
2) Pilot fault
3) The US sees a non-US jet fly by... so it must be the enemy! Woops, maybe it was a British RAF Tornado...




0A TSG Out.
=CR-B=

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Oh really? I've countered all of your arguments, and you cannot conter that. This is just an excuse from somebody that has no more arguments. And I recall commenting all of your statements, while you conveniently ignored some of mine.

Bwahahahah! It was you who ignored almost every argument I presented so I basically rewrote everything 3 times. And you STILL ignord everything!

I proved that jets don't "fall like a rock" at speeds near 200 km/h.

You also "tried" to prove that a jet can kill everything while flying at 10 KPH! Good job at "proving" something. As a matter of fact, you NEVER tried to prove a jet can fly at 200 KPH. As a matter of fact, you kept on saying a jet can shoot a chopper down at 10 KPH. And as a matter of fact- I said a jet falls when it goes below 300 KPH and that is the only thing you disproved.

You also have yet to prove the combat potential of a jet moving at 200 KPH. Because Ive done some testing to fly at stalling speed, just to refresh my memories and a jet has limited maneuverability, in fact, its almost unmaneuverabile and the only maneuver you can do is to keep your nose up to slow down falling. You may and may not know, but at stallspeed, a jet can still be somewhat controlled.

And heres a list of what you have proven that I have not challenged, and which I consider a common sense. You basically want a medal for you just discovering gravity, while everyone else of us has known about it since we started crawling! :laugh:

I proved that a chopper is much more fragile than a jet.

Common sense. But people have used the term "flying fortresses" while talking about choppers, and not jets.

I proved that STA, while somewhat effective against choppers, is not almost useless against jets.

Common sense. In fact, Ive stated it numerous times in the following fashion- "what kills jets, devastates choppers". Which means that finding a balance of STA to counter both without creating an unfait atmosphere against choppers is an extra hard thing to do.

I proved that jets can easily amass a great number of kills with no dying, choppers being included as targets.

And Ive been telling you that this is a matter of skill, with an ounce of STA ineffectiveness against choppers. An average pilot finishes the round with ~40~50 kills, sometimes less, sometimes more, and they DO have deaths on their count. Thats an average pilot.

A smart pilot will always keep themselves out of harms way and relies on attacks which will not render them as a target.

I proved that due to lack of weapons against a jet, once a pilot grounds the enemies, he will rule the skies (and the ground) forever.

Im afraid this has little to do with a jet being too strong. But it has a lot to do with pilots ethics, severe jets imbalance (which you know ****-all about) and inefficient STA, at covering main base.

I proved that there is no other role in BF2 with easier scoring than jet flying. And also that since it's only killing, it's also the less team-oriented, most point farming role.

Bwahahahahahah! You have just effectively desribed a medic class, a soloing chopper pilot (WHICH YOU ADMITTED TO BE YOURSELF ASWELL!) and a tankdriver/APC driver in Karkand!

So lets dig in-

*Medic class, people spam medic bags and often leave their teammates unrevived, or revive them in front of armor.
*Soloing choppers, oh theres a whole lot of topics about this one. Soloing choppers provide the LEAST anti-personnel support at flags, by the way, which is what infantry arguably needs the most.
*APC/Tank spawnkilling but not providing proper support at enemy flags so that infantry can move in.

The cannons are already powerful enough.

Are you serious? Youve just proven that you know ****-all about jets and their imbalancies. A cannon in a dogfight is directly affected by LATENCY, jets maneuverability potential and needs a highly skilled pilot to be used effectively. An average pilot does NOT use cannons because they are very hard things to master and rely on a lot of other things than his own skill level as a "bonus". The cannons indeed are powerful, but they used to be a substitute to missiles before, when missiles didnt work.

I bet youll bring me a ton of Metallica kills as an example. Let me tell you this, Metallica is a kickass pilot who knows what hes doing and he also knows why hes doing that.

Good, but not good enough.

Cobras cannon damage - 20 units
Jets cannon damage - 100 units

Jets presence in battlefield - duration of 40 rounds per one pass, starting from beyond visual range (meaning, a jet can deliver up to 40 rounds of ammunition if it starts blindfiring at beyond visual range, which means, it has to do a circle with a radius of about 500 metres), completing one full pass will take a jet about 15 seconds. In one minute, a jet does-

40 (rounds fired) X 100 (damage units) X 4 (passes) = 16000 units of damage

Choppers presence in battlefield is constant and a chopper can directly influence an outcome of a battle for a flag where a jet CAN NOT.

It has unlimited time to be at a flag, so lets calculate chopper cannons potential damage. It has a cannon that does 20 units of damage at 900 rounds per minute but only has 600 rounds.

600 (rounds fired) X 20 (damage units) X 1 (one pass, constant presence) = 12000 units of damage

Mi cannon has 80 damage units, using the same formula we get-

300 (rounds per minute) X 80 X 1 = 24000 units of damage.

So weve basically established that in using cannons only jet comes actually SECOND, after a chopper. The thing here is though, that a jet is blindfiring its cannons and can not aim at a single non HUD marked unit. Marked HUD units are displayed at 375 metre distance.

I bet that if we calculate in combat potential of ALL armament, then choppers come up on top, all of them.

So you want to nerf a cannon, which is actually quite balanced with the chopper cannons, although, much, much harder to use.

This is ridiculous. It is hard enough to save a flaming chopper on pad.

Bwahahahahah! You have no problems putting a jet into direct danger on the field, but you are not willing to make a chopper LAND for repairs, and tank long enough time on the repair field so it repairs just aslong as a jet does.

Hypocritical chopper whore? Here you go.

No difference, skilled jet pilots know exactly where they are and can just shoot them "preventively".

Isnt that... the right and actually smart thing to do? Isnt it what a chopper can do with TVGMs? Theoretically a chopper can sit behind armored convoys, launch TVGMs and move in after the area has been cleared. OR it can clear the area itsself. The same is happening with jets. It can attack an STA site from BVR, EXACTLY like a chopper can. But youre not willing to nerf chopper TVGM range to 350 metres because it puts them in danger, but you ARE willing to put a jet into danger because it kills you. Haha!

Let me enlighten you for a moment.

375 metre distance is like a dome. At the moment, there is NO way to kill an STA preemptively except for using a cannon from BVR. If we made a cannon completely useless, a jet would only have bombs, right?

I have seen a handful of people in BF2 using high-altitude precision drops from above 375 metres. One of them is Xennore, one is me, and then theres Blades. I dont know of any other pilot, amonths thousands and thousands, who can do the same.

So while youre confident about taking a jets only anti-STA self defense weapon away, you are not willing to do the same for the choppers (which by the way, would make choppers rely on its ground troops, enforcing teamwork, but you dont want anything to dow with teamwork...)

Limited range would be what? A jet ALREADY can get away from AA range quite easily.

Limited range would be 375 metres, which is what it is today.

A good solution for STA would be bring back 1.2

Clearly another statement from an ignorant person knowing dickall about how things work in BF2.

The reason 1.2 was ditched was not because many pilots, me included, whined too much. The reason behind ditching 1.2 wasnt them to be overpowered. In their combat potential they were just fine and presented a valid challenge to air aspect.

The reason for 1.2 being ditched and revised was because the sudden increase in teamkills and flares working ineffectively. In that particular order.

Before 1.2, the so called "stray missiles" worked by the same principles as they did in 1.2. They had a wide field of view (90 degrees) but they were not maneuverable enough. In fact, all missiles were just worse than the worst jet in BF2. They had a wide area of view though so they didnt lose their targets before raching terminal distance, where they were simply outmaneuverred.

In 1.2, missiles gained such a maneuverabilitybonus, that if DICE made missiles lock angle to be 360 degrees, the missiles would have tracked down ANY target at ANY angle from them aslong as it was in 375 metre range. They had 90, still, and this was enough for them to "find" another target through flares.

The reduction of teamkilling was made by simply reducing missiles lock angle to 45 degrees.

I have no problem with going back to 1.2. But that means my missiles will track you down and I will get teamkills. The question is, are you willing to put up with being teamkilled over and over again?

If yes, post up to DICE, asking all missiles to be reverted to 1.2.

Your fixes are not enough to balance the jet, especially the cannon of doom. I'm hitting this key, the cannon of doom. It's ridiculous to have it make several times the damage of the attack chopper's gun.

Why is it ridiculous? First, a jet has to use its whole body to aim the cannon. Secondly, chopper cannon is used by a NON pilot. Third, their combat potential is quite reasonably similar and fourth, chopper has a ton of other weapons and it remains constantly on the battlefield, while a jet has to make constant rearming passes.

I havent seen a jet finishing the game in under 3 minutes, driving all USMC forces into the sea. But I have seen a chopper do it, plenty of times. Surely I would consider choppers to be more overpowered.

As a matter of fact, a good chopper duo can make more points combined than a skilled pilot. But chopper is and always will remain below jets in foodchain. Live with it.

Metallica proposed a challenge to anyone, not being able to kill him with cannons in less than 5 passes when he flies a chopper. If he is THAT good and that confident, why cant you be?

The purpose of that was to show you that it is easy to play with a jet even with a high ping, contrary to your statement. And yes, they pwn both because they are good and because they fly jets. They know that they would get owned in any other role.

I didnt say it was hard. I just said it affects you a lot. That being said, I always fly with ~150 ping, and my scores would be 40% higher if I did with a below 100. My dogfight scores would be doubled. I didnt say playing with high ping was impossible, but high ping definitely and undeniably hinders players gameplay. While Metallica needs a short burst to kill a STA site, I need to shoot at it for at least a full second.

Maybe because you are better than them?
The game is, the better jet+pilot gets lots of kills.

Any pilot can confirm that the only way a pilot can get points is by killing. They cant resupply, revive, cap flags. They can only kill. And because of that, their combat potential is justified.

If a pilot makes 50 kills a round, he has earned 100 points purely by killing.

Medics and support players earn more than that in Karkand.

I can push 50-100 points in a non-Karkand map. Playing with a 1:1, 2:1 KDR, with most of my points coming from teamwork point bonuses.

A chopper also can and should only kill, and high scores of choppers pilots are justifified, exactly like jet scores are.

It punchs hard indeed. It is not what it is "supposed to do", it's imbalance.

Should it have a gentle touch? A chopper can dispatch the whole enemy force from its armor in less than one minute. A jet can never do that. Do I call choppers being inbalanced? In Gulf of Oman map, me and my gunner made it so that MEC armor never reached USMC bases. They didnt even leave their bases, never. Thanks to my gunner we also made it so upon flag capturing, none of enemy infantry troops didnt live more than 3 seconds after their spawn. 4 minutes into the round, we had all land flags and when we started raping the enemy, it was a massacre.

We ended the game for our team in less than 5 minutes. If you watch PlaneWhore The Movie Part 1 and 2, you can see that he gets 65-0, and he is a damn fine ATS pilot, yet he didnt push back the whole enemy team.

The key problem with STA is its inefficiency against jets. Did you watch metallica's video? He just killed the STA from far away, as "preventive" measure. Then he raped the jets before they could take off and stand a chance. How is the enemy supposed to fight against that? - Answer me this (????)

Hahahaha... Choppers TVGM reaches to 450 metres, you can do the same all day long. Preventive strikes directly influence on choppers combat survivability, just like they do on jets. How is an enemy supposed to fight a TVGMing chopper from 450 metres away, answer me this?

The screenshot above is from a round yesterday in Sharqi. You see, I am in the US side. I gunned the Cobra for a while and flew that Quick guy. And we effectively negated the Mi-28.
I played 3 rounds, 2 golds and 1 bronze, no Mi-28 rape while I had the AH. And the enemy was not braindead.

You had 46 kills and 4 deaths. Thats a 10:1 KDR and obviously is unbalanced.

Metallica got 45 kills and 0 deaths. Tell me why is a jet any different than a chopper?

Because you died 4 times more? But werent you providing close-in air support putting yourself in constant danger? Which theoretically a jet never does?


My bottomline to you personally- if jets need to land to rearm, and the whole maneuver takes 2 minutes at least. Then I want a chopper to LAND aswell, and take 4 times more time to repair and rearm. Furthermore, TVGM needs to be reduced to 350 metres so we can put chopper into direct danger of STA.

2) Pilot fault

Ouch, man, thank you for that.

In Battlefield 2, every death is resulted in more or less degree because of players fault.

Infantry dies because they put themselves into danger.
Chopper crew dies because they put themselves into danger.
And so on.

Rock-Paper-Scissor scheme still works because of players tactical mistake.

Just because theres a tank at the flag, doesnt mean a medic dies an instant death upon reaching 50 yard radius off the tank. A medic can still choose to survive.

[Batausu]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Bwahahahah!

You are so funny! :laugh:

The reason for 1.2 being ditched and revised was because the sudden increase in teamkills and flares working ineffectively. In that particular order.
The reduction of teamkilling was made by simply reducing missiles lock angle to 45 degrees.

I loved 1.2 missiles!
If it wasn't for those missiles, maybe I would have never tried to fly a jet and miss so much fun.
Why DICE has to be so incompetent?!
Surely, there must be a middle way to balance the missiles and I remember you made some tweaking to the files. Any results yet?
You have to admit, 1.2 missiles could be a balancing factor of J10 versus the others, if only TK and flares are fixed.

[imported_{9thInf}Padre]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Wow, what a thread. If this were a boxing match, you'd both be bloody beyond recognition.

As an 'okay' pilot who can hold his own for the most part, but certainly isn't in the elite range, I'd only like to see the hit box/A2A missle avoidance for the F-35 improved, albeit only slightly, and the J-10 reduced, by a touch more. This would do it for me.

On S2A, if you sit in an installation, you're going to present a perfect target. The way to take down a jet is to: (IMHO)

1) Have team members spotting the damn things or have a good feel for where they are.
2) Don't be in the S2A installation when you know/think the enemy pilot is heading towards you.
3) As the enemy jet approaches, jump into the S2A when he's obviously to a point where he can't turn to take you on.
4) Fire two S2A's.
5) Jump out so that if the enemy jet turns to find you, even if he gets the ghost occupied tag and makes a run at you, at least you won't get killed, especially as he's likely made his bombing run and is coming back to strafe you.
6) Jump back in and let the launcher reload, then get out again. Rinse and repeat.

Of course, if the pilot figures out what S2A site you're in, you can expect him to come right after you. Depending on the quality of the pilot, the quality of your pilots and the shielding around the S2A site, you may want to abandon the site in favor of another location.

Personally, I'm fine with the way most of everything works, but that's just me. Sure, the best pilots really own the battlefield, but then again, they should. Average pilots are just that - average. They don't tip the scales of a round one way or the other. The same can be said of helo crews. And armor drivers. Which is the way it should be. At least in my opinion.

Padre

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

You are so funny! :laugh:

You sarcasist! :p

I loved 1.2 missiles!
If it wasn't for those missiles, maybe I would have never tried to fly a jet and miss so much fun.

Thing about 1.2 was that it was a mirror reflection of pre 1.2. Not working enough <-> Working too much.

As a groundpounder, allright, it provided good counter for jets.

As an airman, it was as if aimbots were introduced as legal tools of combat.

Why DICE has to be so incompetent?!
Surely, there must be a middle way to balance the missiles and I remember you made some tweaking to the files. Any results yet?

I did a lot of work on the missiles but I mostly worked on ATA combat. And I created a system, which would have both uber-tracking aswell as rely heavily on skills. This is how it works, itll take you sh!tload of work to get a good lock. But once that missile is off, only flares can save you. And I believe, playing by the engine rules DICE set, it was a good solution.

For STA, it should be a mathematical calculation.

Basically, the thumb rule would be- if an STA faces the jet, and the jet comes straight on- the STA should have a positive launch before the jet can pinpoint the target on its HUD and relocate the cannon.

[.Churr.]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Bwahahahah! It was you who ignored almost every argument I presented so I basically rewrote everything 3 times. And you STILL ignord everything!

Oh really? You are just too stubborn to accept what I said as response to what you've presented.

You also "tried" to prove that a jet can kill everything while flying at 10 KPH! Good job at "proving" something. As a matter of fact, you NEVER tried to prove a jet can fly at 200 KPH. As a matter of fact, you kept on saying a jet can shoot a chopper down at 10 KPH. And as a matter of fact- I said a jet falls when it goes below 300 KPH and that is the only thing you disproved.

You also have yet to prove the combat potential of a jet moving at 200 KPH. Because Ive done some testing to fly at stalling speed, just to refresh my memories and a jet has limited maneuverability, in fact, its almost unmaneuverabile and the only maneuver you can do is to keep your nose up to slow down falling. You may and may not know, but at stallspeed, a jet can still be somewhat controlled.

I didn't say it can kill everything, but you see, since it doesn't fall like a rock.
So this means it can slow down so much that it can wait for the chopper's flares to dissipate, kill it, and regain speed.

And heres a list of what you have proven that I have not challenged, and which I consider a common sense. You basically want a medal for you just discovering gravity, while everyone else of us has known about it since we started crawling! :laugh:

Common sense? Yes, and it is also common sense that jets are overpowered.

Common sense. But people have used the term "flying fortresses" while talking about choppers, and not jets.

These people are ignorant then. A chopper is nothing near a jet in terms of survivability.

Common sense. In fact, Ive stated it numerous times in the following fashion- "what kills jets, devastates choppers". Which means that finding a balance of STA to counter both without creating an unfait atmosphere against choppers is an extra hard thing to do.

Exactly.

A smart pilot will always keep themselves out of harms way and relies on attacks which will not render them as a target.

Exactly. And this is the problem, a smart pilot will never die.

Im afraid this has little to do with a jet being too strong. But it has a lot to do with pilots ethics, severe jets imbalance (which you know ****-all about) and inefficient STA, at covering main base.

Exactly.
See? You admit these points. They show how imbalanced jets are.

*Medic class, people spam medic bags and often leave their teammates unrevived, or revive them in front of armor.
*Soloing choppers, oh theres a whole lot of topics about this one. Soloing choppers provide the LEAST anti-personnel support at flags, by the way, which is what infantry arguably needs the most.
*APC/Tank spawnkilling but not providing proper support at enemy flags so that infantry can move in.

* Medics are very gay and that's why I seldom play the revive-heal game. I am medic just because assault sucks. I think that revives should give 1 point and heals 50% what they give now.
* You are totally wrong. A solo pilot will focus more on enemy armor and choppers, instead of raping infantry as some crews do. This benefits the groundpounders in flag capping.
* Armor whoring is not as easy as jet whoring as you are very vulnerable. If you are being spawnkilled by armor, just spawn somewhere else and pick AT/Engineer/Spec Ops and kill it.

Are you serious? Youve just proven that you know ****-all about jets and their imbalancies. A cannon in a dogfight is directly affected by LATENCY, jets maneuverability potential and needs a highly skilled pilot to be used effectively. An average pilot does NOT use cannons because they are very hard things to master and rely on a lot of other things than his own skill level as a "bonus". The cannons indeed are powerful, but they used to be a substitute to missiles before, when missiles didnt work.

I bet youll bring me a ton of Metallica kills as an example. Let me tell you this, Metallica is a kickass pilot who knows what hes doing and he also knows why hes doing that.

I am aware of that, but why should his skills overwhelm an equally experienced chopper crew's skills? The cannon can still be used to kill slower moving targets, or just "spray and pray" on enemy flags if you have higher latency.

I bet that if we calculate in combat potential of ALL armament, then choppers come up on top, all of them.

Some problems with your math:
A chopper is a crew of 2 people. A jet is a single pilot.
A jet quickly can rearm with that overpass BS.
Chopper cannons overheat.
Chopper cannons have smaller splash damage (Havoc excluded)
A chopper that spends that much time "unloading its combat potential" (camping a flag) is pretty much dead.

So you want to nerf a cannon, which is actually quite balanced with the chopper cannons, although, much, much harder to use.

I think Metallica once said, Jets cannon > Havoc's cannon. And that's true.
You can't compare them.

Bwahahahahah! You have no problems putting a jet into direct danger on the field, but you are not willing to make a chopper LAND for repairs, and tank long enough time on the repair field so it repairs just aslong as a jet does.

There is no problem in having to land the chopper for repairs, as long as jets also have to.

Isnt that... the right and actually smart thing to do? Isnt it what a chopper can do with TVGMs? Theoretically a chopper can sit behind armored convoys, launch TVGMs and move in after the area has been cleared. OR it can clear the area itsself. The same is happening with jets. It can attack an STA site from BVR, EXACTLY like a chopper can. But youre not willing to nerf chopper TVGM range to 350 metres because it puts them in danger, but you ARE willing to put a jet into danger because it kills you. Haha!

You can't compare TVGM's and jet cannons because you have only 8 TV's but hundreds of cannon rounds. Furthermore, you cannot waste that much TV's "preventively" killing empty AA's like jets can.

[quote]So while youre confident about taking a jets only anti-STA self defense weapon away, you are not willing to do the same for the choppers (which by the way, would make choppers rely on its ground troops, enforcing teamwork, but you dont want anything to dow with teamwork...)

I don't mean make it useless, but down to something weaker than the joke that it is now.

I have no problem with going back to 1.2. But that means my missiles will track you down and I will get teamkills. The question is, are you willing to put up with being teamkilled over and over again?

If yes, post up to DICE, asking all missiles to be reverted to 1.2.

Neither do I; just fix the TK stuff.

Why is it ridiculous? First, a jet has to use its whole body to aim the cannon. Secondly, chopper cannon is used by a NON pilot. Third, their combat potential is quite reasonably similar and fourth, chopper has a ton of other weapons and it remains constantly on the battlefield, while a jet has to make constant rearming passes.

1st: Big deal.
2nd: Touché. You must rely on your pilot, but usually yours is a retard.
3rd: This is a joke, isn't it? Don't tell me you can take down a chopper with another chopper's cannon in less than a second...
4th: Rearming for a jet is very quick, unlike for choppers.

I havent seen a jet finishing the game in under 3 minutes, driving all USMC forces into the sea. But I have seen a chopper do it, plenty of times. Surely I would consider choppers to be more overpowered.

Jets don't need to drive them back to the sea as they can just camp the carrier all day long, and they will not be able to leave the carrier.

As a matter of fact, a good chopper duo can make more points combined than a skilled pilot. But chopper is and always will remain below jets in foodchain. Live with it.

Planewhore's quote; "I have yet to see a chopper player of any kind outscore me" (or something like that).

Metallica proposed a challenge to anyone, not being able to kill him with cannons in less than 5 passes when he flies a chopper. If he is THAT good and that confident, why cant you be?

Not true. I flew with metallica quite a few times, but I can recall the last time, when we died against the J10s, he got angry and took the F35 =/

I didnt say it was hard. I just said it affects you a lot. That being said, I always fly with ~150 ping, and my scores would be 40% higher if I did with a below 100. My dogfight scores would be doubled. I didnt say playing with high ping was impossible, but high ping definitely and undeniably hinders players gameplay. While Metallica needs a short burst to kill a STA site, I need to shoot at it for at least a full second.

"Affects you a lot", but doesn't stop you from killing pretty much everything.
Wow, "a full second". That's still before it can lock on you, isn't it?

If a pilot makes 50 kills a round, he has earned 100 points purely by killing.

Medics and support players earn more than that in Karkand.

I can push 50-100 points in a non-Karkand map. Playing with a 1:1, 2:1 KDR, with most of my points coming from teamwork point bonuses.

Oh please, it takes much less time to get 100 points in a jet than as infantry, doing whatever you want to.

A chopper also can and should only kill, and high scores of choppers pilots are justifified, exactly like jet scores are.

Choppers can be killed, jets can't.

We ended the game for our team in less than 5 minutes. If you watch PlaneWhore The Movie Part 1 and 2, you can see that he gets 65-0, and he is a damn fine ATS pilot, yet he didnt push back the whole enemy team.

65-0 ... Did your gunner get that score? If he did... How often can you keep that up? How often can PW keep his score?

Hahahaha... Choppers TVGM reaches to 450 metres, you can do the same all day long. Preventive strikes directly influence on choppers combat survivability, just like they do on jets. How is an enemy supposed to fight a TVGMing chopper from 450 metres away, answer me this?

I seldom TVGM people taking off, and when I do it it's because I am seriously outgunned or outnumbered (i.e: solo vs 2 crews).

Besides, a chopper can't keep that up long all round long. It has to rearm and repair, and that's time enough for the enemy to take off.

You had 46 kills and 4 deaths. Thats a 10:1 KDR and obviously is unbalanced.

Metallica got 45 kills and 0 deaths. Tell me why is a jet any different than a chopper?

Because you died 4 times more? But werent you providing close-in air support putting yourself in constant danger? Which theoretically a jet never does?

11:1 KDR is different from incalculable KDR (45 / 0 = math error).
And you see here, a jet never puts itself in constant danger as you said yourself. This is the key difference between choppers and jets. Choppers can be killed, jets can't.

My bottomline to you personally- if jets need to land to rearm, and the whole maneuver takes 2 minutes at least. Then I want a chopper to LAND aswell, and take 4 times more time to repair and rearm. Furthermore, TVGM needs to be reduced to 350 metres so we can put chopper into direct danger of STA.

2 minutes? I don't think so. If that were to be implemented, I bet you (jet players) would have ways to land it in less than a minute. Just make it faster to rearm so it doesn't stay that long landed.

Now reduce TVGM range to 350 is killing off the choppers. By doing this it means a chopper must enter the AA range to TVGM. And meaning that you are pretty much dead even before you fire your missile. Nonsense.

Not being funny, but Jets are practically unstoppable in real life anyway... I've never seen the Taleban or Al-Qaeda complain when they see this:

Please, never use the Real Life card when talking about BF2. No further comments.

[CQ-Reborn]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Man Redfieldm, you really are scared of having to fight fair aren't you?
*Sniff* I dont want *whine sniff* to be able to have a chance of being gunned down! Waaah...

My guess is Redfield's best map is wake so he can use the J-10 and fly around unopposed :)

My suggestion is nerf up the other planes that suck vs j-10 so its fair, if people really are excellent pilots they shouldnt have a problem fighting people in planes equal to theirs.

But I wouldnt worry Redfield, you can stop making 5 paragraph posts defending your n00b J-10 and beliefs, EA is not going to be fixing any imbalances because they said they cant, I recall reading somewhere where they said "Its simply a error in the code we cant fix" or something along those lines, why are we even arguing about this when EA is just gonna be lazy bastards like they always are and not do a single thing? Expect alot of nerfing of things that dont need nerfing, thats all I can say.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Oh really? You are just too stubborn to accept what I said as response to what you've presented.

Accept what? That landing the jets creates balance? While you cant accept that choppers would need to balance too? Ist that a tad hypocritical?

I didn't say it can kill everything, but you see, since it doesn't fall like a rock.
So this means it can slow down so much that it can wait for the chopper's flares to dissipate, kill it, and regain speed.

If you withing 375 metre distance in front of a jet, and not attempting to move out from the measily 45 degree angle while a jet moves at 200 KPH, then you deserve to be shot down. Additionally, a jet flying at that speed will be shot down with almost anything on the field, including TVGMs. The only possible explanation for a chopper pilot to be killed by a jet mkving 200 KPH using missiles, is when a chopper does not attempt to outmaneuver the jet, and my god, that isnt hard at all, because a jet cant do much of anything at those speeds.

So basically, you die to a 200 KPH moving jet because you suck. Please dont blame DICE for that.

Common sense? Yes, and it is also common sense that jets are overpowered.

I believe jets are overpowered in their anti-infantry aspect, whereas jets potential to kill armor is right where it needs to be. It takes a lot of skill for a person to effectively use armor with a jet, and this is because a lot of people attack the carrier. Those players suck, now what has this to do with DICE?
It doesnt.

These people are ignorant then. A chopper is nothing near a jet in terms of survivability.

A chopper is actually quite good at surviving. Your 11:1 KDR is a nice proof to that. Sloi also has 2 videos of him soloing the chopper and he dies 2-3 times during the whole round while he was flying OUT AND IN THE OPEN without using terrain as his cover.

The reason why a jet has a higher rate of survivability is because of its attack style. It makes one pass and thats it. You need to create a weapon or an idea to take a jet down during that one pass, not make them land so that they can be downed while they are not doing their job.

Your idea is total nonsense because youre not actually making a rock-paper-scissor kind of balancer to a jet, you just want to make them useless and immobile. This makes your "fix" a stupid idea.

Exactly. And this is the problem, a smart pilot will never die.

Is that such a bad thing? A smart sniper never dies. A smart tanker never dies. A smart chopper crew never dies. A smart pilot is not an exception here.

See? You admit these points. They show how imbalanced jets are.

I admit that a jet has too much of anti-infnatry potential. A solo chopperer has 3 sets of weapons at his exposal.

FFAR
TVGM
Cannon

This is WAY too much for one player to use. Im willing to bet you disagree with this using some "skill" BS or "there are tons of counters" BS.

Let me remind you, youve already used them up. In fact you were kind enough to brag about your 62-0 tank score while trying to make me believe everything on the field designed against a tank works great!

You are a joke!

* Medics are very gay and that's why I seldom play the revive-heal game. I am medic just because assault sucks. I think that revives should give 1 point and heals 50% what they give now.

Is this DICEs fault or players fault? Game design or ethics?

* You are totally wrong. A solo pilot will focus more on enemy armor and choppers, instead of raping infantry as some crews do. This benefits the groundpounders in flag capping.

I was talking about capturing flags, not pointwhoring for your own benefit, silly. A soloer pilot attacks armor and helos because more often than not, he can not attack other targets, such as infantry. They then disguise it under the "Im a teamworker" BS. Matter of fact is, they do what they do for their own benefit which HAPPENS to help the team.

But in reality, I would like to cap a flag as fast as I can and for that I need anti-infantry support which a soloer can not give me. So basically, while one of games objectives is to cap flags, a soloer (you) are not helping me.

* Armor whoring is not as easy as jet whoring as you are very vulnerable. If you are being spawnkilled by armor, just spawn somewhere else and pick AT/Engineer/Spec Ops and kill it.

You getting 62-0 in Mashtuur in a tank. Metallica 45-0 in Wake.

"easy" "no enemies" "overpowered"

Coming from you, this is all BS.

I am aware of that, but why should his skills overwhelm an equally experienced chopper crew's skills? The cannon can still be used to kill slower moving targets, or just "spray and pray" on enemy flags if you have higher latency.

Uhm, maybe because a jet is a force multiplier one step above choppers?

The cannon is almost useless at higher pings. Heres an example.

150 ping server- it takes me a full second of direct fire against STA
A huge lead and a very experienced hand to kill infantry with Cobra cannon
Lots and lots of bullets to kill infantry with firearms
3 passes to kill an APC with cannons only
More than 5 seconds of direct cannon fire to kill a jet in a dogfight
About 3 passes to kill a chopper using cannons only

In 50 ping servers it takes me a short burst to kill an STA
Little lead to hit a running infantry unit, I can almost aim head on
3-5 bullets to kill an infantry soldier, one hitting bullet from each burst I make
1-2 passes to kill a non-moving APC with cannons only
About 3 second to kill a jet in a dogfight
1 pass to kill a chopper provided its not moving and is hovering

This difference, with only 100 ms difference. At about 250 ms, cannons on jets and choppers alike are totally useless.

You cant pray and spray anything because you cant kill anything.

Some problems with your math:
A chopper is a crew of 2 people. A jet is a single pilot.

Its easier to use the cannon for the chopper. You are usually at visual range with your target and you kill targets at a non-stopping speed. A jet has one pass to kill as many targets as possible.

A jet quickly can rearm with that overpass BS.

A chopper needs a few seconds to rearm itsself to regain combat potential of several minutes. You dont call that ********?

Chopper cannons overheat.

Simply by tapping the cannon, overheating process can be slowed to almost 30% of what it is originally.

Additionally, ask yourself how accurately you can pinpoint a chopper cannon, and a jet cannon oving at 1000 KPH, at a target?

Using a jet cannon on small targets is intuitive and often will result in a miss. Using chopper cannons on small cannon relies on low ping, and little experience.

Chopper cannons have smaller splash damage (Havoc excluded)

Cobra/ Z10 cannon-
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionRadius 3
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionForce 2.5
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionDamage 75

Havoc cannon-
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionRadius 5
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionForce 3.5
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionDamage 200

Jet cannon-
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionRadius 4
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionForce 2.5
ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionDamage 100

Undeniably, helicopter and jet cannons really arent that different...

The fact that a jet can shoot 40 rounds per pass, and choppers can deliver virtually the whole magazine at the target area, speaks of the actual cannon efficiency.

The fact that jet cannon splash damage is only 30% bigger than choppers, is also quite a measily complaint since jets really can not aim at specific targets, namely infantry, is a little argument against the power of jets cannon. Decrease in jets cannon splash damage certainly is a good start, but its also where it ends. And it wont do a dime of good against choppers.

A chopper that spends that much time "unloading its combat potential" (camping a flag) is pretty much dead.

So is a jet. If a jet is unloading 40 X 4 rounds of ammo, which means its making one pass over a target 4 times in a long straight line, means it will be killed by another jet or STA site. So whats the problem? Its ultimately a pilots choice whether or not he puts himself into the risk. I would go as far as to say that if it wasnt for jets, a chopper would be virtually untouchable object on the field.

I think Metallica once said, Jets cannon > Havoc's cannon. And that's true.
You can't compare them.

Actually you can, and quite well. Jet cannon is only 20% stronger than Havocs cannon, and in the same time has 20% less splash damage radius. In the same time Havoc can and will clear a whole flag in less than 5 seconds, with no contest from people at the flag. A jet can not clear the whole flag area. If jets cannon was so powerful, why dont you see hovering F35Bs circling the flag eh?

There is no problem in having to land the chopper for repairs, as long as jets also have to.

Its not just landing, its also decreasing the speed of rearming and repairing 4 (at the very least) times to match the time it takes for a jet to land and repair, and rearm. Basically, I aim to this goal (sarcasm spotted!). A rearming chopper has to be on the ground for aslong as another chopper can kill it, or a tank or a trooper can come close and open fire upon it to kill it with one shot from any weapon that would kill a jet. This would be perfect balance because choppers combat potential is very high.

You can't compare TVGM's and jet cannons because you have only 8 TV's but hundreds of cannon rounds. Furthermore, you cannot waste that much TV's "preventively" killing empty AA's like jets can.

Why not? You basically shoot off 1-2 TVGMs to clear a whole area with a radius of 375 metres, for aslong as the STA takes to respwan. Once you have killed a STA site you can pretty much cannon it down every time it spawns. Its a great trade if you ask me.

You have no problems when a chopper has to waste ammo on STA sites to keep its back clean yet you complain when someone wants to make you waste your TVGMs. Whats wrong, cant solo without TVGMs?

I don't mean make it useless, but down to something weaker than the joke that it is now.

Weaker by how much? By as much as making it as good as a cobra cannon?

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">2. Creating a more skill based system which will also spare choppers from jets missile use, making jets rely more on cannons (made a fullsize topic, created my own jet mod to test it out) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>The cannons are already powerful enough.

Right here you seemingly agree that cannons power is justified in their role in a dogfight. So which is it, nerf the damage or nerf the missiles?

You do understand that when you nerf cannons so they wont be used, you have to have missile system that makes up for it? That means... 100% hit-able missiles?

Neither do I; just fix the TK stuff.

Typical BS from a guy who doesnt know jacksh!t what hes talking about.

Mind telling me how exatly you fix the "TK stuff"?

1st: Big deal.

Of course, whats the big deal in maneuvering a whole jet to kill a target when you can simply point and click with the mouse. Obviously youve never player POE2 and its Hind, where the cannon is pilot-controlled. And even there, cannon is much easier than using the jets cannon. Jets cannon can only be controled in 2 dimensions. Left-right and up-down, you cant even move it diagonally.

3rd: This is a joke, isn't it? Don't tell me you can take down a chopper with another chopper's cannon in less than a second...

Then why the hell would you want a jet to have Cobras cannon?

Again, you have no problems making a jet useless, but god damn that poor fvcker who touches your chopper.

Damage potential- it takes about ~45 rounds of Cobras cannon to take down any attack chopper on the field. In an actual dogfight, how many are actually used? For the sake of the argument, the ping is 150 ms -

I have an answer to you : too fvcking much.

4th: Rearming for a jet is very quick, unlike for choppers.

Oh really? I make 3 tornado spins over an air strip and Im fully armed and ready to go to combat, where I stay up to 5 minutes if everything goes good.

After the first pass, a jet is left with no bombs, which means that their anti-armor ability is... gone and they have to go to rearm.

Jets don't need to drive them back to the sea as they can just camp the carrier all day long, and they will not be able to leave the carrier.

So whos fault is it? DICEs or players?

Heres what youve written about medics-

* Medics are very gay and that's why I seldom play the revive-heal game. I am medic just because assault sucks. I think that revives should give 1 point and heals 50% what they give now.

Should DICE "fix" medic class?

Chopper crews-

2nd: Touché. You must rely on your pilot, but usually yours is a retard.

Shoudl DICE do "something" about it?

Planewhore's quote; "I have yet to see a chopper player of any kind outscore me" (or something like that).

Thats because PlaneWhore is an excpetional ATS pilot using jets combat potential at its fullest, and even he has admitted that his average kill number is about 60-80 kills a round. Which isnt that awfully much compared to your 46 kill round. His video PWP1/2 had a 65 kill streak and Metallicas video shows a 45-0 kill round.

Not true. I flew with metallica quite a few times, but I can recall the last time, when we died against the J10s, he got angry and took the F35 =/

Everyone dies, aslong as they have a determined foe. I remember his challenge, and you can ask him yourself.

Wow, "a full second". That's still before it can lock on you, isn't it?

Nope, I shoot at the flag, as soon as I see the STA nest, I adjust, then it takes me a second. By the time I make a kill, I am fully locked on, often in need for releasing my flares. Thats a good tradeoff. I was close to being dead, and had to release the flares to save myself

Oh please, it takes much less time to get 100 points in a jet than as infantry, doing whatever you want to.

Isnt it how its supposed to be? And no, it doesnt take much of "hard work" tossing medic bags and ammo bags around the place...

Choppers can be killed, jets can't.

I have a roughly 3:1 KDR in STA nest. About 20% of all kills are jets. I am also a good dogfighter. Id say jets can be killed. The fact that you cant kill them from your chopper, doesnt mean they ae invoulnerable.

65-0 ... Did your gunner get that score? If he did... How often can you keep that up? How often can PW keep his score?

No. Planewhore did. I dont have a regular gunner right now as I rarely play. But my gunner averaged 40-60 kills a round. I averaged 50-70 kills a round with a jet.

I seldom TVGM people taking off, and when I do it it's because I am seriously outgunned or outnumbered (i.e: solo vs 2 crews).

I never baserape a jet that is taking off and I never attack uncaps in a jet.

Besides, a chopper can't keep that up long all round long. It has to rearm and repair, and that's time enough for the enemy to take off.

A chopper can rearm and repair using any engineer, or supply bag around. A chopper can rearm at any vehicle which can rearm it and its a well used tactic to ask for a supply crate at remote, yet close location to kee choppers combat affect time as fluid as possible. Id say a chopper can keep itsself in combat much, much longer than it really should.

11:1 KDR is different from incalculable KDR (45 / 0 = math error).
And you see here, a jet never puts itself in constant danger as you said yourself. This is the key difference between choppers and jets. Choppers can be killed, jets can't.

So your idea of a fix is to put a jet into constant danger by grounding it? Isnt that a little stupid?

There are other ways of forcing a pilot to be closer to danger. You dont need to land a jet to do that. In fact "Rock Paper Scissor" balance was never meant to be working by the rule of how much a tool is present in danger.

2 minutes? I don't think so. If that were to be implemented, I bet you (jet players) would have ways to land it in less than a minute. Just make it faster to rearm so it doesn't stay that long landed.

Approach, speed cut, landing, taxi, repair, rearm, taxi, takeoff.

But the worst is ahead.

What happens if the airstrip is mined? What happens if theres a teammate with a clear intention to TK you? What happens when an enemy jet comes? What happens when enemy tank is watching over the strip? What happens if enemy AT soldier is in the bushes camping the strip? WHat happens if you have 3 bars of health? Any bump will make your jet burn and crash!

Jets combat potential is not worth it being killed over and over again, having virtually no impact to the battlefield.

Now reduce TVGM range to 350 is killing off the choppers. By doing this it means a chopper must enter the AA range to TVGM. And meaning that you are pretty much dead even before you fire your missile. Nonsense.

hahahahahahah! Moron. A jet in need for landing is pretty much dead before it even reaches the air strip. Nonsense.

Man Redfieldm, you really are scared of having to fight fair aren't you?
*Sniff* I dont want *whine sniff* to be able to have a chance of being gunned down! Waaah...

My guess is Redfield's best map is wake so he can use the J-10 and fly around unopposed :)

My suggestion is nerf up the other planes that suck vs j-10 so its fair, if people really are excellent pilots they shouldnt have a problem fighting people in planes equal to theirs.

But I wouldnt worry Redfield, you can stop making 5 paragraph posts defending your n00b J-10 and beliefs, EA is not going to be fixing any imbalances because they said they cant, I recall reading somewhere where they said "Its simply a error in the code we cant fix" or something along those lines, why are we even arguing about this when EA is just gonna be lazy bastards like they always are and not do a single thing? Expect alot of nerfing of things that dont need nerfing, thats all I can say.

Just one of my many accounts-

USMC - 325.32
MEC - 68.09
PLA - 12.11

I use F35B as much as possibly, but I prefer Kubra Dam and I absolutely hate Wake Island, having just about 10 hours total in that map.

Idiot.

[CQ-Reborn]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Haha, okay, one of your many accounts...betcha one of his accounts that erm.."doesnt exist" he has like 500 hours on wake :P
P.S: I love the link, the "Is the the BF2 we wanted?" thing, its funny...the guy looks like a fish! XD

[Batausu]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

You are a joke!
...
hahahahahahah! Moron.
...
Idiot.

Hmm.
You sound more and more like PW.
What is this telling you?...

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

Hmm.
You sound more and more like PW.
What is this telling you?...

No idea, should it tell me anything at all? Should I even care?

Rebord, I find Wake to be an extremely boring map for a pilot. Its too open, too visible. I do like the maps design, which means USMC must land as quickly as possible to land.

[Batausu]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

No idea, should it tell me anything at all? Should I even care?

I mean, do you think is safe to insult people on the internet, if you don't agree with them?

[Blades]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

I mean, do you think is safe to insult people on the internet, if you don't agree with them?

Err what are they gonna do to me? Hunt me down or something? roflmao. is it safe.

Is it polite, i dont think so.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: *JET* imbalance... This needs seriously to be fixed

I mean, do you think is safe to insult people on the internet, if you don't agree with them?

If you are going to ignore the content because of 3 insults, then you deserve to be shot. Thats an insult, now come after me.