The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

[Digital-Boy]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

the PKM does have recoil

Yes, tied for second best recoil in the game.

second , it has a delay

Not any longer than what runs average for weapons, except if you're standing, when it's slightly longer.

third it can be used standing up, but not so great

Doesn't this apply to every weapon?

As for beating every PKM'er you come across... Maybe you're just really good.

[WarGimp]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Thought:

Should there be a delay on being able to fire after going prone that is equal to the draw time for each weapon?

Seems like it would be a fairly good way to implement that sort of delay... light weapons and assualt rifles have a perty quick draw, while support weapons take longer.

Random thought, but I kinda like it.

[imported_RingMasTeR]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Thought:

Should there be a delay on being able to fire after going prone that is equal to the draw time for each weapon?

Seems like it would be a fairly good way to implement that sort of delay... light weapons and assualt rifles have a perty quick draw, while support weapons take longer.

Random thought, but I kinda like it.

Good idea... that could most definately work. And the delay would be pretty fair across the board to all kits. It also makes good sense as well.... the heavier the weapon the longer it takes to "set up" in the prone position.

[shiremct]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

I love honest to goodness discussions like this and I consider many of the posters in this thread to be some of the most competent and even-minded members of the forum when it comes to discussing gameplay and balance, however, I am deeply alarmed at some of the last few post involving assault...

But I have a lot to add on many different levels here. (I apologize for length )

The most alarming concept is bringing other weapons up to the leathality of the sniper rifles and support guns as of now. Whether you guys realize it or not... what you are suggesting is moving BF2 towards DOD. This is bad, indeed. What made me fall in love with this game back when it was released was the extended, drawn out firefights and the more realistic feel to battles, regarding length of engagements. Yes, the guns might not have been up to their actual levels of accuracy they are capable of in the real world, but there is much more to it than that. Firstly, these textbook values for accuracy dont account for conditions and dont account for the user. You wouldnt believe how often automatic and even semi-automatic weapons can jam and malfuction in training conditions, let alone the conditions in an intense firefight. Not to mention, a user's accuracy during such conditions is not that which you might experience on a closed range. This has been discussed a thousand times, but so many neglect to understand this. BF2 was one of the few multiplayer FPS games to capture this feel by decreasing the accuracy of the weapons. I have some friends who play a lot of DOD and they had the nerve to tell me one day that DOD was more realistic than BF2. I asked them if they honestly thought DOD was realistic and they replied "yes" as if I was stupid for asking (implying their "leet" point and click skills made them awesome potential soldiers). Of course not a single one of them have ever fired a weapon at all, nor do any of them have the slightest comprehension of military tactics or procedures. While I have never been a real member of the armed forces, I have undergone some slight military training (I mean field training, with weapons and such) in an ROTC program in college (I was in for a little while to check it out, but not signed on with contract or scholarship) and have fired, carried, and such the m16 and m249 SAW in the field, not to mention all the various pistols, rifles, and shotguns I have fired as well. I also know what its like carrying all that gear around... your helmet alone is enough to throw off your natural balance and make you whole body have to work extra to move fluidly, then you got your utility belt, where, depending on how well you have your equipment distributed, you got another off balance weight to factor. Thats not including any packs you may have on your back. For example, if you were to run up and plant your side against a wall, you would probably be bounced off slightly and slammed back into the wall again by the momentum of your extra gear. I know... I'm rambling, but the point is, "realistic" weapon funtionality does not make a realistic gameplay experience, and certainly not a balanced one. There is much more than how accurate a weapon is that plays into a firefight and BF2 was one of the few games that came even close to partially conveying that.

There were other effects of the decreased accuracy in BF2 as well. I personally believe it went a long way towards encouraging teamwork. Because of the decreased likelyhood of instantly being blown away, it really helped to have teammates around to engage, heal, and cover you when you ran into conflict. I think this is the core reason so many people detest noob-tubing and bunny-hopping with shotguns and such. These weapons or tactics lead to you being instantly blown away, often with little or no gaming skill involved. Now-a-days... i find it almost impossible to get into a decent squad. Teamwork has went kaput, because everyone can effectively whipe out entire enemy advances from afar with their sniper rifles and PKM's. They have no need, nor any desire of support or teamwork. That would just be people there to steal their kills. I honestly believe this incentive for teamwork brought about by relatively inaccurate weapons was by complete accident. Take for example the tank, whose driver can fire tank shells and an insanely accurate MG on full auto at the same time. I have, ever since the day I first dl-ed the demo, wanted the tank driver to have his mg removed or severly nerfed in terms of accuracy, making him rely more on infantry and his gunner on top to deal with soft targets, but no-body complains about this. Because of this example (there are others of course) of blatent bad design that does NOT encourage teamwork, I choose to believe that the teamwork encouraged on the infantry level was by accident and DICE probably to this day do not realize it. At least whatever DICE employees make the patches. So I have no hopes of improved gameplay in the future, sadly, I only expect things to worsen, however, I think its worth discussing... who knows... maybe one of us may be a game developer one day or a community member in the circle of influence (crosses-fingers). Or maybe somebody at DICE might listen up and re-evaluate BF2... na, but our discussions may indeed improve BF3, or other games developed down the road.


The other complaint I would like to make regarding this discussion is the attitude that assault should be the most common class and should outgun most other classes. I dont think thats they way class-based MP games are supposed to work, especially in a game based of real modern weapons. Most classes are going to be equiped with similar or the same small arm guns, so a medic out-shooting an assualt class is not 'wrong', especially since all the stock assault and medic classes have the exact same weapon. Class based gameplay does not revolve around what gun they carry, but the role they play. Sometimes the role they play is determined and influenced by their weapon, as is the case with support, which you guys have hit the nail on the head in saying support should not be a mobile auto shotgun or a long range sniper rifle, but a mid to short range supressing and supporting weapon. Support needed a little help in terms of accuracy to fullfill its given role before the patch, but lets face it... its now far outclasses its originaly intended role. Another thing that would really help support is to beef up the tracers and visual indications of incoming fire. I think if players saw a lot more tracer fire blazing by that rock, they might not be so eager to run out there, especially with improved accuracy. I also agree with the idea of decreasing max deviation and increasing min deveation to encourage the use of the guns in bursts rather than single shot or two-to-three shot bursts. This isnt how these weapons are used, nor does it work toward fulfilling their role. Controled 5-to-6 second bursts is what I would shoot for. And just to throw in... in terms of assault... the GL's they carry is their niche, but I think that what whould have been nice is better and more smoke nades, especially with the G3... like as thick as the ones tanks pop. There is no place in this game for flashbangs IMHO... even in SF, interior fighting is not much more common than in vanilla.

I completely agree with the idea of making a delay for firing when going prone that varies from weapon to weapon for all weapons and I completely agree with adjusting recoil to take a bit of the functionality of random deviation, but I disagree with setting up bipods for MG's and i disagree with adjusting other guns to beat the currently too-accurate sniper rifles and lmg's. I know some of you who have a problem with the PKM do not have a problem with the sniper rifles, but I believe they both cause similar gameplay disruptions and damage incentive for teamwork. The bipod issue sounds good for the PKM, but it would go contrary to all the other lmg's used in the game, which are designed to be used on the move and are designed to be mobile.

I don't hold my breath for any good changes to take place... in fact I suspect things to continue to decline... I don't know who DICE and EA work with in the community, but its clear to me, whatever clans or sites they may be... they have no concept of balancing gameplay. Or perhaps EA and DICE just don't listen... either way... the future seems clear. Once apon a time, this game was the Team Fortress 2 that was never delivered (F#@%ing Valve...), but it seems to moves farther away from what it should be each patch. Will 1.21 pleasantly surprise me? Will content in the booster packs pleasantly surprise me? I think not, and if 1.21 does not, I will not be bothering with boosters anyhow. At least there are tons of great games due to come out this year to keep me busy when BF2 goes under.

My $0.02

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

^Nice post. And it's a pity people like you are leaving BF2 when we still have tards all over the place that need extradition instead, but I digress.

I pretty much agree with everything you said except about sniper rifles. Snipers, by nature, are loners. You don't usually find a sniper charging around securing points with a squad or sneaking around the back base to capture an unguarded flag (and before someone busts in here saying, 'OMG I do all that when I'm sniper!', I realise there are exceptions, but for the most part people who play sniper don't do that). The very kit itself does not promote team play except for the occasional flag defense point or spotting of armour. To that end I don't have a problem with the sniper rifles doing what they do in the game, because at least it makes the class good for something. It's all the people camped out on top of buildings and cranes pretending they can single-handedly kill the entire team with their mad sniping skills instead of helping the team capture and secure bases that irritate me, but whatever. Everything else you said pretty much hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned.

~Wolfgang

[Ghilleman]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

I agree with wargimp. Soldiers in the military who use weapons like the SAW usually use bipods because the weapon is pretty inaccurate witout it. Not even very accurate then, but hey, its supoosed to just hose bullets and create supressing fire, not make single shots that hit dead on. Weapons like the assault's m16, AK-47, etc, wouldnt take very long to set up because in reality, you can dive to the ground and fire with them and not take to much damage accuracy-wise due to their light weight and small size. So the PKM should AT LEAST have to take 2-3 seconds to set up the wepaon prone for its accuracy, as it is more of a defensive ambush wepaon than an assault rifle.

[Digital-Boy]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Will 1.21 pleasantly surprise me? Will content in the booster packs pleasantly surprise me? I think not, and if 1.21 does not, I will not be bothering with boosters anyhow. At least there are tons of great games due to come out this year to keep me busy when BF2 goes under.

Hell, if patch v1.2 changed BF2 as much as it did, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some rehauls in any future major patches (probably will be too, as BF2 is perpetually bug-ridden). So I don't know what to expect. At any rate, there are tons of new mods coming out, so there's that much to hope for.

[SargeJp]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

maybe you guys should stop complaining about everything in the game and play it like it is? I just want to say to accept the game like it is. If it's continue like this, people will kill all the gameplay in BF2 because EA will fix everything to be more "fair" for everybody. It will just turns out into a slow FPS. If you get killed a lot of times by a PKM, it's normal! they fixed it because people were complaining how LMG's sucked. If you don't like to get owned by support guys then just leave the game! It's simple. but PLEASE stop making two thousand threads about how the PKM is too strong.

[vbl]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

maybe you guys should stop complaining about everything in the game and play it like it is? I just want to say to accept the game like it is. If it's continue like this, people will kill all the gameplay in BF2 because EA will fix everything to be more "fair" for everybody. It will just turns out into a slow FPS. If you get killed a lot of times by a PKM, it's normal! they fixed it because people were complaining how LMG's sucked. If you don't like to get owned by support guys then just leave the game! It's simple. but PLEASE stop making two thousand threads about how the PKM is too strong.

I'm glad you aren't in charge. We'd all be eating big balls of MSG while we drive our Pintos to the store to buy lead paint for our asbestos-insulated houses.

[shiremct]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Wolfgang, i think we are actually in agreement on the issue with snipers. I agree they were not that useful before, but now that they are, they DO sit off by their lonesome, picking people off and ruining the firefights and there ARE so many now sitting off by their lonesome. It is this reason I detest their buffs from the patch and think they hurt the gameplay. Not that they didnt need some buffs to be as effective as the other classes, but I just dont think they should be. I know thats harsh, but because they are an anti-teamwork class, I think they should be penalized. I almost wish they were not included at all. But I know this is my personal opinion and I know im quite baised as anti-sniper.

And I am not yet quiting bf2, but it simply is not such a favorite and I will often opt to play games like simcity 4 instead... well... that means its getting pretty bad then, lol

Ghilleman, While weapons like the SAW may be used with a bipod, there really isnt much setup time involved. You can carry the weapon quite effectively with a fixed bipod and simply set it down on the ground or up against a peice of cover and start shooting. A much larger weapon like the PKM is not designed with this sort of mobility involved. I think a simple delay before firing would be sufficent and just increase the time for the PKM to get up and going over other lmgs. LMGs in reality are pretty darn accurate when prone, but that isnt always the best route for good gameplay.

[WarGimp]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Good idea... that could most definately work. And the delay would be pretty fair across the board to all kits. It also makes good sense as well.... the heavier the weapon the longer it takes to "set up" in the prone position.

Yup, I dig it too.

Hehe, spent some more time thinking about it and it's really a handy and fair way to impose a prone delay.

I'll confess to a couple times where I've prone dived with the PKM in a panic and while gritting my teeth expecting to die... only to kill the guy that jumped me... and the guy behind him... and... well, yeah.


Using draw time as the delay makes it nice 'n simple. You could tell that to a coder with the insturctions to make is so, and I'm betting it would "feel" right.

I love honest to goodness discussions like this and I consider many of the posters in this thread to be some of the most competent and even-minded members of the forum when it comes to discussing gameplay and balance, however, I am deeply alarmed at some of the last few post involving assault...

Yeah, nice when people actually talk, eh?
I think it's safe to assume that the alarming assualt related posts you mentioned are mine... lemme try to help you adress that fear.

But I have a lot to add on many different levels here. (I apologize for length )

The most alarming concept is bringing other weapons up to the leathality of the sniper rifles and support guns as of now. Whether you guys realize it or not... what you are suggesting is moving BF2 towards DOD. This is bad... [Snip]

Sorry, your post was too damned long to disect in it's entirety and you made your best point right there.

I could tell what you ment from that little bit. You're afraid that BF2 would become yet another twitch 'n shoot, pixel aimer.
Yeah?

I understand your fear. It's about being friendly to the causual gamer who doesn't have the time, hardware, and/or 15-year-old reflexes to develop the skills to hitscan-shoot the fly off a dead man's nose. If the leathality of the game is raised too much, it will become the realm of the elitists only and casual gamers will spend all their time getting owned. Worse, teamwork will be pointless because it all comes down to "who twitches best" matches that have very little tactical elements.

Fortunatly, BF2 has elements that will help stave this off... but it requires a seemingly unrelated hole to be filled.

Squad hopping/cycling has to die.

Why?

Because if you couldn't simply squad hop into position, it would make moving a much more tactical element. It would strenghten your need to play well together with your squad and your desire to not get whiped out would rise dramaticly. Moving with cover, preforming stand-off attacks, and supporting each other would be much bigger factors. This is only increased if leathality is higher.

As it is now, if I'm an SL I want a medic stapled to my arse (I don't hop in pubs, people join my squad because they know this and enjoying playing without hopping). I do the tactical BS because it's fun.

Since 1.2 came out, it's only increased my demands on both my squads and myself. I don't mind if that gets ramped up further.

[imported_bigpappa]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

i thought claymore spamming was the problem, now its the pkm. whats next, the grenades?

[shiremct]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Yup, thats exactly my fears Wargimp, and I cringe everytime someone suggests making the m95 a oneshot kill to the body or any other such suggestion. I feel BF2 was a gem (still is, but to a lesser extent) among a host of twitch shooters that claimed teamwork, but really had no such thing. Americas Army is an example... I played it about a year ago, and was quite excited about the promise of squad based teamwork. However, there is no such thing. I cried out follow me till I was blue in the face and everybody ran off in different directions to find their favorite camping spot. Same old Same old. But on a strange note, I fired up old TFC, the online shooter that got me started in the online shooter gaming and actually lasted me oh... about 4 or 5 years i think till BF2 came out which is the only other shooter I have played heavily other than TFC. While all the old servers that I used to play on that are left were mostly filled with jerks who were very mad at me for sucking seeing as how I hadnt played for about a year and a half... there was still more teamwork than what you find in the majority of BF2 matches these days... I don't know if that is showing the strength of TFC (Team Fortress Classic btw... incase anyone didnt know what I was talking about) or the crisis settling in on BF2. I suspect its both.

[PHPT]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

i thought claymore spamming was the problem, now its the pkm. whats next, the grenades?

Yes, because one problem clearly makes all of the less-severe problems go away.

Anyway, my take on this whole mess is that it IS the accuracy. The original post on this falls into the typical trap of putting realism above balance.

Here's the deal: There are only two kits that lack the ability to take out things farther than a grenade throw. One has AT mines and the ability to drive next to a tank and make it invincible. The other shoots rockets that kill you and make you unrevivable if they hit directly, and take a big chunk of armor off of tanks, on top of an unlock that utterly obliterates anyone in CQB.

Before 1.2, there was a third, and it's special ability was throwing people bags of bullets just in case they had either managed to fight 2 minutes straight without dying and somehow didn't walk by a supply crate recently, or ran out of C4/missiles.

The key on that last part, support needs a combat edge. That's it. That edge is powerful although somewhat unversatile firepower, which would be FINE if it had the same effective range as, oh, a G36C. As it stands though, it's a long-range sniper cannon which is more effective long-range than an assault rifle, and about as effective up-close as a DAO.

As for the prone setup time.... no. Just, no. You do realize that a stationary target is dead meat, right? I don't care if they're carrying a minigun, taking a 1-second break in combat is a death wish, and so is being forced to sit still so you're "always ready."

I look at it this way: If it was underpowered before, and it's overpowered now, and the only thing they changed was the accuracy, it's probably the accuracy that's the problem!

[Ghilleman]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Im just curious PHPT, what should be done to help make the PKM more balanced, if it shouldnt be used defensivley (pick somewhere to defend and hose down any bad guys who peek around the corner, as it should be) and can instantly set up to become a meat-grinder on the streets in CC.