The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

[WarGimp]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

As for the prone setup time.... no. Just, no. You do realize that a stationary target is dead meat, right? I don't care if they're carrying a minigun, taking a 1-second break in combat is a death wish, and so is being forced to sit still so you're "always ready."

This is the point.

The price you pay for all that firepower is supposed to be mobility, but as it sits, your mobility isn't really impaired.

Hit prone, shoot.

Get up 5 seconds later and continue after having lain waste to whoever it was that jumped you.

If you had a delay before shooting after going prone equal to your draw time for your weapon, it would "encourage" you to play the support kit in a support role, rather than playing support as assualt.

How's that a bad thing?

[shiremct]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Stopping=Dead is a side effect of the accuracy bonus to snipers. (Yea, i really do got a grudge.) I agree with PHPT. While I said it in my gargantous post without actually "saying" it, Ill say it here: The accuracy is the problem. The obscene single shot accuracy is what moves the support class out of its intended role. I still think Wolfgang has got the right idea by tweaking the support guns to have a tighter cone of fire for, lets say... mid-length bursts (assuming a short burst is 2-4 bullets) and less accuracy for that first shot or first few shots. Plus big nasty tracers.

[PHPT]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Im just curious PHPT, what should be done to help make the PKM more balanced, if it shouldnt be used defensivley (pick somewhere to defend and hose down any bad guys who peek around the corner, as it should be) and can instantly set up to become a meat-grinder on the streets in CC.

In case you haven't noticed, the recoil is still pretty bad. After the second bullet or so, the thing sprays everywhere. Unless you're pretty close (as in, almost close enough for a shotgun to floor you), you can usually react in time and get out of the way.

I consider recoil a factor in accuracy, and I believe the recoil was adjusted as part of the "accuracy adjustment." If I remember, they actually made it WORSE, but they buffed the first-shot accuracy so much that you need several shots to hit spray mode.

And for what it's worth, I don't see why it's a problem for it to be usable effectively for both defensive and offensive purposes.

The price you pay for all that firepower is supposed to be mobility, but as it sits, your mobility isn't really impaired.

Hit prone, shoot.

If you'd ever tried that pre-1.2 you'd see exactly where that mobility impairment comes from: Running around ramps up a TON of inaccuracy with LMGs, much more so than assault rifles. Even if you drop prone, the inaccuracy from running around has already accumulated, and if you pull your trigger without waiting a bit, you won't hit a thing.

At least, that's how it WAS. Remember, I'm suggesting that the solution simply lies between two problematic extremes here.

If you had a delay before shooting after going prone equal to your draw time for your weapon, it would "encourage" you to play the support kit in a support role, rather than playing support as assualt.

Again, I don't see the problem with using it as an offensive weapon. What role is it you want support to have? Being a short-range stationary turret, a.k.a. totally worthless the moment the commander drops a UAV?

Stopping=Dead is a side effect of the accuracy bonus to snipers. (Yea, i really do got a grudge.) I agree with PHPT. While I said it in my gargantous post without actually "saying" it, Ill say it here: The accuracy is the problem.

It's a side-effect of every other kit having a weapon they can run-and-gun with without stopping movement. If you see an assault guy near you and you drop prone and have to WAIT a second to set up, you're going to be perforated long before you get your chance to fire.

If you had to prone and be in a so-called "defensive" role, then guess what you're doing? You're sitting still, in a position where you can see them, and (surprise!) they can probably see you. Not just snipers, but medics, spec ops, assaults, anyone with an even remotely accurate gun will take you down before you get a chance to react unless you're looking right at them. Why? Because you're still, and all it takes is a UAV, a spotter, or just someone out of your field of view, and you are nothing but a big TARGET.


My proposal is simple:
- First, drop the maximum accuracy down to the level of, say, the G36C
- Second, balance out the inaccuracy ramping so that when you're just getting finished running around, you're not going to be able to hit a damn thing accurately for at least another second. This lets you defend yourself, and gives you close-quarters viability comparable to shotgunners, but lacks the ability to just stop and start sniping like most assault rifles can.
- Third, crouching accuracy should be acceptable, but the recoil should be so bad that you have to wait a good deal of time before your next shot has any hope of hitting.

The second was exactly what was happening in 1.12. The problem was that the accuracy was so terrible at ALL times that it was essentially a DAO with a slightly longer range that you had to prone to shoot. And I'm perfectly fine with that, as long as I can actually hit a distant target after being prone for a few seconds.

[Ghilleman]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Yes, recoil is a big part of accuracy, but the reson the recoil on the PKM is horrible, is because you're using a large caliber wepaon, which arent exactly famed for their accuracy. In fact, the PKM uses 7.62mm ammunition, the same size round used in the BHs miniguns (and we all know how accurate those are.) Most support wepaons may not be too accurate, but theyre not supposed to be. thats why they have 100+ clip sizes, so they can make up for quality, with quanity.

[PHPT]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Yes, recoil is a big part of accuracy, but the reson the recoil on the PKM is horrible, is because you're using a large caliber wepaon, which arent exactly famed for their accuracy. In fact, the PKM uses 7.62mm ammunition, the same size round used in the BHs miniguns (and we all know how accurate those are.) Most support wepaons may not be too accurate, but theyre not supposed to be. thats why they have 100+ clip sizes, so they can make up for quality, with quanity.

Accuracy adjustment via recoil is fine, I'm perfectly okay with that, as far as I'm concerned the support guns are medium-range weapons, they just need some long-range viability so they're not worthless on anything but city maps.

The support guns were somewhere between assault rifles and shotguns on the range effectiveness scale, but the problem was that even with "quantity," the single-shot spray was so bad that there was no hope of hitting anything at the range assault rifles can still hit reliably STANDING.

It still is, you can't get long-range shots by "quantity" because of the bad recoil, but you certainly can hit with 2 successive shots reliably at a much longer range (which you'd know the impact of if you've ever been spawn-camped in a Karkand alleyway), and the extremely high accuracy makes it better for picking off targets than assault rifles, simply because you'll hit more consistently. That effectively makes the PKM as powerful as a shotgun up close, and more powerful than an assault rifle at any other range, which is BROKEN.

Adjusting recoil would make them about as effective long-range as assault rifles at most ranges, except better up close, which is balanced off by bad run-and-gun capability, poor run distance, and lack of any other major combat capability besides unlimited ammo (which is only as useful as the distance to the nearest supply crate anyway, unless you're crazy like me and want to blow up a UAV trailer three times in a match with just frags).


And if you want to argue it's a large-caliber weapon, it's also on a bipod and has a longer barrel than most of the sniper rifles. It's not something that should be incapable of a good shot, especially prone and set-up.

[WarGimp]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Add a bit of recoil, and bit of minimum deviation. Nothing drastic, tho.

Then give the assualt toys a good buff.

That's the basic tweak that really should happen. Beyond that... well, speculating is fun!

[PHPT]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Then give the assualt toys a good buff.

The assault toys haven't needed a buff since they upgraded the G3. If it weren't for the PKM stealing the spotlight, grenade launchers would still be the prime quick-kill weapons. Unless fired by a dumbass that still thinks it's a shotgun. Most assault players still haven't figured out they have a smoke canister in their inventory either. And I know only about 10% of the people with the F2000 ever use their flashbangs...

[Paas]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

The assault toys haven't needed a buff since they upgraded the G3.

At the expense of M203's I don't see this as a viable trade. I could understand if the G3 had a Grenade Launcher as well. Yet, it doesnt.

Futhermore, Assault is outclassed in a long range gunfight vs. every classification BUT Anti-Tank, and Engineer. Every other class has the upper hand on Assault. Even when it comes to assaulting.

If it weren't for the PKM stealing the spotlight, grenade launchers would still be the prime quick-kill weapons. Unless fired by a dumbass that still thinks it's a shotgun. Most assault players still haven't figured out they have a smoke canister in their inventory either. And I know only about 10% of the people with the F2000 ever use their flashbangs...

Not true. Assault has always needed a bit of an overall buff. I mean, there is no reason that a Medic should stand a fair chance against a class built around direct combat against infantry. Spec-Ops also shouldn't stand a chance. Having to apply an Unlock to the situation (which cost you your ONLY unique ability; smoke is all but worthless. Flashbangs do have their uses) just to get the upper hand in "Rifle" combat is insane. Even then though, you're only on par with Medic and Spec-Ops as they are able to put more accurate fire on you than you're able to put on them

I have said it before, and I will say it again. All of the stopping power in the world is pointless if you cannot hit what you're aiming at. Assault seems to have a problem of hitting what it's aiming at up to the caliber of both Spec-Ops and Medics. Two classes which are not direct combat roles; least they shouldn't be.

{WP}Paas

Edit: Realise I'm using the phrase, " Stand a chance" liberaly. Yes, a Medic should be able to kill an Assault player. Yes, a Spec-Ops soldier should be able to kill an Assault player. Yet, on even grounds with even ability, Assault should domintate both of these classes in direct combat. It's its only niche. It's not like Assault has any other way of gathering points beside killing Infantry. Nor' is it even slightly effective against Armor.

[Digital-Boy]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

...you're using a large caliber wepaon, which arent exactly famed for their accuracy. In fact, the PKM uses 7.62mm ammunition, the same size round used in the BHs miniguns (and we all know how accurate those are.)

The M24 uses a 7.62mm round. :p

[Paas]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

The M24 uses a 7.62mm round. :p

Let's not also forget that the PKM uses a 7.62x54r. Which shares more qualities with US's 30-06 than the .308-NATO.

Not the flatest shooting round in the world coming out of an SVD (I had this debate with someone already), yet coming from a PKM it's extremely flat shooting and arrives with a bit more force than the M24/.308 combination can provide.

{WP}Paas

[FlyingEgg]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

I've long thought that a delay has been needed between diving and attaining accuracy.
I'd like to know how many people in the world can fire a gun with maximum accuracy while flying in the air, hitting the ground and often rolling. This has more than annoyed me on many an occasion where I've been waiting for a target to stop moving after having pressed his 'z' key, only to be picked off with the use of his instant miracle accuracy.

And please, no flames to the effect of 'omg, it's a game, not real life'. I don't expect a great deal of realism from BF2, and this isn't about realism, it's about gameplay.
Most people played Call of Duty? Either the original or Source? Think about the MG's in that. Devestating and fear-inspiring, but kept in check by the fact that they had to be deployed. It was a pretty fair trade.

Now, the PKM of late (and to a lesser extent the MG36, and even lesser the normal LMG's) can attain similar levels of power instantly. A simple tap of a key, and boom, instant accuracy. And because of that, instant and unfair power.

I'm not suggesting here that firing should be disabled while diving, as it's a realistically possible action. The part that isn't realistic is the instant accuracy attained while flying through the air, hitting the ground and rolling about.

- Set a delay for attained accuracy when diving. The time untill the person is actually lying still on the ground. After all, the reason you've got the accuracy from the prone position is because you're stable and stationary.

- Limit how far a weapon can be aimed upward from a prone position. A person would have difficulty aim too far upward when lying down. A little thing called a spine makes sure of this.
Limiting how far upward a person can look/aim when prone would help prevent the problem of diving to the ground and spraying being a feasable and more often than not effective method of close-quarter combat.

[WarGimp]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

- Limit how far a weapon can be aimed upward from a prone position. A person would have difficulty aim too far upward when lying down. A little thing called a spine makes sure of this.
Limiting how far upward a person can look/aim when prone would help prevent the problem of diving to the ground and spraying being a feasable and more often than not effective method of close-quarter combat.

Ah... you can roll 'n twist 'n stuff when you're on the ground. You're able to shoot straight up while on yer back.

[snowy]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

im just worried they're going to change it back to being a bit rubbish, before i get the chance to unlock it!

[=Yes=Overkill]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

im just worried they're going to change it back to being a bit rubbish, before i get the chance to unlock it!

You don't have to worry.By my opinion PKM,MG36 and other LMG's were good enough before latest patch.You just needed to know how to shot.So if they change them simply learn to shot and that's it.

[F-1]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

You don't have to worry.By my opinion PKM,MG36 and other LMG's were good enough before latest patch.You just needed to know how to shot.So if they change them simply learn to shot and that's it.

That is a misleading statement that keeps popping up from time to time.

When you have a gun that has a cross hair with the size of a tank then if you are the best shooter in the world it wont help you. Those deviations from the center of the cross hair are random, in other words: hitting the target has nothing to do with you being good or not. If you "knew" how to kill with the PKM before the patch then you will probably do better with the G3.