The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

[vbl]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

we dont have to be so deep -its overpowered, point and click, the bullets always go straight as laser and kills every single time. you even have a monster accuracy standing, and unlimited ammo and grenades.

Accuracy is not a single-dimension variable. So yes, we need to think a little more critically. Sorry if that hurts your brain.

[F-1]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Some info about the real world PKM:

Caliber 7,62x54R
Weight 8,99kg on bipod (PK), 16,48kg on tripod (PKS)
Length 1173 mm
Length of barrel 658 mm
Feeding belt 100, 200 or 250 rounds
Rate of fire 650 rpm

The PKM in the game is the LMG version of it



Here is the Medium Machine Gun version of the PKM. It is definitly not the one in the game:


I think the one in the game has a bipod, not a tripod.

For the sake of comparison: the M95 has a 737mm barrel (compared to the PKM's 658mm). so it is fair to give it such an accuracy.

[mr12es]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Has anyone taken notice of what i said about the PKM being too good at CLOSE RANGE??

[baroque]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Accuracy is not a single-dimension variable. So yes, we need to think a little more critically. Sorry if that hurts your brain.

OMG you owned me :cry:

[mr12es]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

lol..all i hav to say

[SK]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Edit: I did not know that the PKM is an MGM! thanks for the info. I though they all fall in the same exact category.

It is not. The 7.62mm class MGs are commonly categorized as GPMGs (general purpose machineguns). Wether they´re called lmg, mmg or hmg depends on the role they´re used in.
Usage with bipod, carried by an infantryman is the lmg role, usage from a tripod in a static position is the mmg role (or hmg role, depending on the army you´re speaking of).

I´d be cautious with using just barrel length for accuracy comparisons, there´s a lot of other very important factors, like shooting from open or closed bolt, sights, ammunition etc.

[vbl]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

It is not. The 7.62mm class MGs are commonly categorized as GPMGs (general purpose machineguns). Wether they´re called lmg, mmg or hmg depends on the role they´re used in.
Usage with bipod, carried by an infantryman is the lmg role, usage from a tripod in a static position is the mmg role (or hmg role, depending on the army you´re speaking of).

I don't care about the terminology we use as long as we're clear that the PKM is a much larger (and heavier caliber) gun than the other "lighter" machineguns, and thusly should behave differently.

I edited the original post to remove the reference to medium machineguns to clear up any confusions and keep us discussing the game issues at hand, not the real world terminology.

[Paas]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Real Issue #1: The PKM has no recoil (Black Duck!)
Go fire the M249 SAW for a comparison. The PKM has almost no recoil when it fires, meaning that you never have to reset the crosshair when you shoot. This makes it quite easy to chain single shots together without taking time to recenter your aim. A big gun like the PKM has a bipod, not to make it completely stable and recoilless, but to bring it up to a manageable level of recoil - after all, it's a big gun.

Fix: Add recoil to reduce the player's ability to quickly chain super-accurate single shots together without adjustment.

I agree ten fold. Although, this is the case for more weapons in the game. EA relys to heavily on their "random deviation" system. When, instead, the focus of poor shot placement should be the recoil.

Real Issue #2: The PKM (and all LMGs) have no delay between going prone and shooting
Players can enjoy the full benefits of prone accuracy before hitting the ground. This means that PKM users can run around like Assault players as long as they perform the split second "prone flop" before they shoot. And since there's no delay from going prone to shooting, there is no penalty for playing this way.

Fix: We're looking to carve out a role for Support - entrenching in key positions and fending off attackers. In order to do that they need a very respectable gun (PKM!), but we want to balance that with something. In this case, players should experience a slight delay between going prone and firing their big, heavy, machineguns. Only a second or two - just enough to prevent "assault flopping" and force support players to exercise some foresight about where and when they want to set up.

This also should apply to every class. I do agree though.

Real Issue #3: The PKM has passable accuracy while standing and crouching
Oops! Now the PKM can be fired almost as well as any assault rifle, even while standing up. This runs counter to the Support role, nevermind being patently ridiculous.

Fix: Increase deviation while standing and crouching so that effectively firing the PKM while standing becomes a rare exception. Or just make it so that when you fire the PKM while standing up it rips your arms off and you have to kick the enemy to kill them.

Only mature posters need reply.

...and this my friend is were we finally disagree.

I do understand your point though. A Medium MG is not your standard arm. You don't just stand there and fire it. Yet, at the same time a PKM is in no way an Mg42. You can fire it while standing (although, not for long... not for long at all) in very short burst. You will have "kill" accuracy, granted, it's nothing to write home about, but you will able to keep your shots within' a 6ft. grouping at 100m (25m in game).

As for the other MG's in game, which are all light, the concept of being forced to go prone for accuracy is outrageous. An M249 SAW is every bit as accurate as an M16 while standing. The only difference is the sustained recoil on the shooter. This needs to be represented in some form or fashion with all weapons.

When you fire, your recoil needs to gradually increase (sharply in terms of the PKM, and Ak-47... whic both have extreme amounts of muzzle climb when fired from an unsupported position), the longer you sustain automatic fire the less likely you are to maintain a sight picture; your screen would be shaking too violently. Although, with this being said, your weapon still needs to apply accuracy fire to the position of your sights on your screen. It should just be able to you to struggly to keep those sights on target.

If this was done, the weapons would fucntion logically (not completely realistic, but logical enough so that you don't run into many "WTF!? OMG!? n00b!?" moments; wondering why your fire from 5m danced around the OpFor). When you aim at close ranges (10m or less) you would notice a 100% hit percentage while sighted (as if should be, CQB is commonly decided by the "first man to the trigger")... yet at longer ranges it would become a factor of recoil removing your sight picture under sustained fire. So, you would have to allow your weapon to settle if you wanted to make followup shots... or just conserve ammunition.

The different positions in the game should only work against the stability/recovery of a weapon after fire. Not the accuracy of the weapon itself (although, sight drift could be implemented to represent "pre-fire" stability; so to speak ). If you're standing. Your weapon would be drifting drastically. Yet, if you managed to fire while your sights are over the OpFor you would land your round within your weapons accuracy/range limitations.

For Example:
- ...an USMC assault soldier was standing firing at a target, his sights would be dancning in a "figure eight" pattern on his screen. Yet, if he timed the drift correctly and pulled the trigger as his sights were over the OpFor.. his rifle would fire within' a 2-4inch group at 200m. After his intial shot, the recoil figures for standing would affect his sight placement. So, his sights would jerk sharply up and to the right; all the while drifting.

I know this is all a bit extreme. No, I don't expect it to ever be implemented. This is just how I think it "should" have been done in the first place. I'm sure you probably agree (maybe not, just assuming).

{WP}Paas

Edit:

Just to come into the little "LMG" or "MMG" debate kinda' late.

Personally I consider all MG's chambered to .308 and above to be MMG's. After .50 BMG and up you reach the level of "HMG, or just MG". That's how I have always rated it.

For instance:

M249SAW/RPK-74 - Light MG. Carried on a Fireteam level and is usually not a crew served weapon. Can be fired stable and accurately from a standing postion (in burst). Fires 5.56 and whatever the Russian variant is.

M240B or G/PKM- Medium MG. Carried on a Platoon level. Is not a single man weapon, is crew served. Chambered to the heavier and more powerfull .308/54r (Russian answer to the 30-06). This weapon is not stable when fired from standing or crouched, supporting is a must if any long range surpressive fire is to be shelled out. Although, once supported the heavier barrel allows for wider sheets of fire. The larger caliber provides superior stopping power over SAW, and better Anti-Vehicle applications.

.50BMG/Kord(Russian .50, not sure the exact measurements of the round) - Heavy MG. Mounted strictly, or emplaced. Not mobile, recoil is outrageous. It's a friggin' .50 for christ sake!?

I could be completely off base. Yet, that's always how I have put them into families.

[Alabaster Slim]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

I agree completely with the original post.

I'd like to see the support role act as a mobile version of the fixed MGs. The LMGs should have similar power and accuracy while prone only. When crouched or standing they should be pretty much useless.

It should take a second or two to setup when you do go prone (maybe an animation where the bipod is positioned correctly would be appropriate).

[F-1]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

I´d be cautious with using just barrel length for accuracy comparisons, there´s a lot of other very important factors, like shooting from open or closed bolt, sights, ammunition etc.

I have to agree with you. I made such a comparison and it is not totally true... thanks for the info.

[sav112]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

and ive never used that gun that just a mad video, all you can say is why dont we all just use that gun.

[WarGimp]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

I feel rather strongly that the core issue isn't so much the PKM's power, but rather the lack of power that Assualt currently has.

The assualt kit needs some TLC. The G3 should be one of (if not the most) the most accurate assualt rifles in the game (and an extra clip or 2 wouldn't hurt). Grenade launchers should have a larger splash radius to make them effective at mid range and as area effect weapons. The Fn2000 needs an accuracy buff.

I'd rather see the current imbalances correcting via buffs to other weapons, rather than nerfing support... although a bit more recoil and lower accuracy while standing/crouching with the PKM certainly wouldn't hurt.

[vbl]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

I feel rather strongly that the core issue isn't so much the PKM's power, but rather the lack of power that Assualt currently has.

The assualt kit needs some TLC. The G3 should be one of (if not the most) the most accurate assualt rifles in the game (and an extra clip or 2 wouldn't hurt). Grenade launchers should have a larger splash radius to make them effective at mid range and as area effect weapons. The Fn2000 needs an accuracy buff.

I'd rather see the current imbalances correcting via buffs to other weapons, rather than nerfing support... although a bit more recoil and lower accuracy while standing/crouching with the PKM certainly wouldn't hurt.

Let's just be careful about making everything so lethal that it becomes PRMM. I agree though - assault's primary advantages are firepower and durability while mobile. They don't really have as much firepower as they ought to.

Just the same, we need to make some changes to help solidify Support's battlefield role because right now Support has replaced Assault as the mobile heavy hitter, and Support will continue to be the kit of choice until that mobility is checked.

[WarGimp]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Let's just be careful about making everything so lethal that it becomes PRMM. I agree though - assault's primary advantages are firepower and durability while mobile. They don't really have as much firepower as they ought to.

Yup, that's a danger that's worth watching.

However, it's largely an issue of the assualt class not filling it's role. Seriously, they are out gunned by medics at mid and long range!

It is worth noting that I've had lots of success with the G3 in close quarters... even against PKMs. Faster rate of fire, high damage (same number of shots to kill a healthy target as the PKM), and desent from-the-hip accuracy makes it a deadly tool for up close and personal work. Just gotta watch the ammo. It goes *click* too damned fast.

[Paas]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Yup, that's a danger that's worth watching.

However, it's largely an issue of the assualt class not filling it's role. Seriously, they are out gunned by medics at mid and long range!

I cry every night thinking about this. Every damn night! ...heck, it's daytime and I'm crying now.

It is worth noting that I've had lots of success with the G3 in close quarters... even against PKMs. Faster rate of fire, high damage (same number of shots to kill a healthy target as the PKM), and desent from-the-hip accuracy makes it a deadly tool for up close and personal work. Just gotta watch the ammo. It goes *click* too damned fast.

Yes. I just wished the gave the G3a3 a Hk-69. I have never understood why Assault has to "lose" somthing when gaining their unlock. No one else loses anything, why do we?

...and I don't consider hand grenades and even trade.

{WP}Paas