The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

[vbl]

Let's get something quite straight. The PKM is the only 7.62, long-barrel (edited to keep everyone happy and on track) machinegun in the game and its power and accuracy (while prone) should outshine other LMGs, and indeed, most assault rifles. On the battlefield, the LMGs' role is to hold positions and choke off inroads by entrenching in a spot and letting loose with crippling firepower.

Many people claim that the LMGs can do this without actually being accurate (as in 1.12), but that's a fairy tale. In BF2 if it's not killing you, it gets no respect. We'll just sprint or bunny hop to safety. Bottom line: There are no game mechanisms that provide benefits for just "shooting at something". (America's Army, by contrast, reduced a player's accuracy significantly while being shot at which made "cover fire" a useful tactic)

So now that the PKM (and LMGs) can actually kill you, and the Support player can finally fulfill his role as miniature fortification, everyone is upset about just how deadly the PKM has become. I have two complementary responses to your concerns:

1) Get over it. Support has finally come into its own, so you need to learn to fear and respect the weapons. Whereas before you could bunny hop a few times, dive to prone and crack off a few with your G36C, now you need to consider, tactically, ways to deal with the Support player. This is a good thing for the game - so please start learning to work around it.

2) You're partially right to complain, but not in the ways you think. Everyone readily whines about how accurate it is, but we need to be very clear on the real issues with the gun - and it's not the accuracy.

Real Issue #1: The PKM has no recoil (Black Duck!)
Go fire the M249 SAW for a comparison. The PKM has almost no recoil when it fires, meaning that you never have to reset the crosshair when you shoot. This makes it quite easy to chain single shots together without taking time to recenter your aim. A big gun like the PKM has a bipod, not to make it completely stable and recoilless, but to bring it up to a manageable level of recoil - after all, it's a big gun.

Fix: Add recoil to reduce the player's ability to quickly chain super-accurate single shots together without adjustment.

Real Issue #2: The PKM (and all LMGs) have no delay between going prone and shooting
Players can enjoy the full benefits of prone accuracy before hitting the ground. This means that PKM users can run around like Assault players as long as they perform the split second "prone flop" before they shoot. And since there's no delay from going prone to shooting, there is no penalty for playing this way.

Fix: We're looking to carve out a role for Support - entrenching in key positions and fending off attackers. In order to do that they need a very respectable gun (PKM!), but we want to balance that with something. In this case, players should experience a slight delay between going prone and firing their big, heavy, machineguns. Only a second or two - just enough to prevent "assault flopping" and force support players to exercise some foresight about where and when they want to set up.

Real Issue #3: The PKM has passable accuracy while standing and crouching
Oops! Now the PKM can be fired almost as well as any assault rifle, even while standing up. This runs counter to the Support role, nevermind being patently ridiculous.

Fix: Increase deviation or recoil while standing and crouching so that effectively firing the PKM well while standing becomes a rare exception.

EDIT: The PKM's Current Weaknesses
Just to make sure we don't forget that it's not quite as all-powerful as some folks like to preach.

• Slow deployment (pull out) time
• Slow reload time
• Incredibly loud and distinctive sound
• Long barrel, which is difficult to conceal when behind cover
• Slow rate of fire, whether full auto or plinking people with single shots
• Slow projectiles (as with all support guns) requiring longer leads for hitting moving targets down-range
• Most of the time, the user must be stationary and prone to fire; makes the support player easy to hit, and puts the his head out in front as the first thing an enemy's bullets will hit
• Extremely poor at quickly killing tightly-grouped clusters of multiple enemies (it only excels when addressing 1 target at a time)

Think about it.

[dwuf76]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

I belive issue two is not quite true. There already seems to be a slight delay between prone and shoot as compared to an assult rifle. Or maybe its just me......btw.....I love sniping snipers with the 1.2 PKM :) that is all

[imported_RingMasTeR]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Good post Variable. Taking away the ability to fire until the prone animation is completed is something that I think is long overdue for all weapons, but most notably the LMG's.

[DrJambo]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Good post.

I'd just like to say that because the PKM is the most powerful of the support guns and the one being most talked about at the moment, it's easy to forget that the problem also exists for the MG36! They both have a 0.1 min deviation and very little recoil.

[vbl]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Good post.

I'd just like to say that because the PKM is the most powerful of the support guns and the one being most talked about at the moment, it's easy to forget that the problem also exists for the MG36! They both have a 0.1 min deviation and very little recoil.

But the MG36 doesn't have the power of the PKM - and that makes it far less viable on single shot.

[Mekstizzle]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

The main problem with the PKM is that it is more accurate than Assualt rifles (well i haven't got the F2000 but the rest) whilst standing up or crouching. You can give me deviation stats but in actual online play that's how it's been for me. Wether i was using the PKM or not. If i'm standing shooting a PKM at a prone sniper i should go down. Funnily enough i don't (most of the time), even against some quite good snipers (popping in and out quickly and stuff doing all sorts of movements)

I'm 100% fine with LMG accuracy whilst prone. LMG accuracy whilst crouching or standing should be next to none. For balance.

So yeah i agree with your post (just actually read your post now o_O)

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

The biggest problem is, I've always believed, the single-shot accuracy. What needs to be done IMO is boost up the minimum deviation while decreasing the maximum deviation. As it stands now, full auto makes it relatively inaccruate while on single-shot it's pinpoint accurate. While that may be an accurate reflection of how it is in reality, as far as the game is concerned it turns support class from a short to medium range suppression fire threat used to cover squads and defend flags from onrushing enemies, to one that instead picks off targets from a mile away. Support in BF2 is meant to spit out a lot of lead, thus the 100+ round magazines on the support weapons, not be a precision-shooting device. People used the PKM pre-patch because they liked the power it packed over the defaults. Now they use it because they get obscene single-shot accuracy. For this game to be balanced, support HAS to suck at long ranges, but dominate at anything from short to medium range. Again, it may be realistic the way it is now, but realism doesn't always equate to balance or fun in a game. The PKM, as it stands now, is far removed from supports overall role.

~Wolfgang

[vbl]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

*If I had read the original post before replying I wouldn't have wasted my time and the readers' time reiterating the same thing*

So yeah i agree with your post (just actually read your post now o_O)

:laugh:

[deadman2312]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

But the MG36 doesn't have the power of the PKM - and that makes it far less viable on single shot.

Agreed, its odd that the PKM being a second Tier unlock is more lethal than its third tier friend the MG36. IMO though, the MG36 has a slightly faster rate of fire correct? So in a wierd way its almost evened out? More bullets quicker damage, almost making them the same, or is that just retarded to say?


When i first began playing BF2 i was disappointed at the insane spray the support guns had even when prone. Everyone is freaked out now because the guns are the way they should have been from jump. I feel 1.2 set the decent players out from the exploiters, and those would be the unhappy ones(exploiters).

[vbl]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

The biggest problem is, I've always believed, the single-shot accuracy. What needs to be done IMO is boost up the minimum deviation while decreasing the maximum deviation. As it stands now, full auto makes it relatively inaccruate while on single-shot it's pinpoint accurate. While that may be an accurate reflection of how it is in reality, as far as the game is concerned it turns support class from a short to medium range suppression fire threat used to cover squads and defend flags from onrushing enemies, to one that instead picks off targets from a mile away. Support in BF2 is meant to spit out a lot of lead, thus the 100+ round magazines on the support weapons, not be a precision-shooting device. People used the PKM pre-patch because they liked the power it packed over the defaults. Now they use it because they get obscene single-shot accuracy. For this game to be balanced, support HAS to suck at long ranges, but dominate at anything from short to medium range. Again, it may be realistic the way it is now, but realism doesn't always equate to balance or fun in a game. The PKM, as it stands now, is far removed from supports overall role.

~Wolfgang

I don't see any reason why a prone, established support player shouldn't be able to zing a sniper at long ranges. Good snipers are careful about their positions and their firing angles. Bad snipers expect to be able to plop down anywhere and fire freely against anything except other snipers.

Snipers that set up across from entrenched machinegunners ought to die (and I love sniping). Lazy gameplay doesn't justify changes to mechanics.

[F-1]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

Good post.

I'd just like to say that because the PKM is the most powerful of the support guns and the one being most talked about at the moment, it's easy to forget that the problem also exists for the MG36! They both have a 0.1 min deviation and very little recoil.

I do not think Variable is suggesting to change the minimum deviation. Those LMGs have long barrels (as long as a sniper's rifle). They just do not recoil after the patch.

I think Variable's post sums it all: recoil + cross hair relaxation time + Standing deviation modifier. Those three numbers are just not right.

Edit: I did not know that the PKM is an MGM! thanks for the info. I though they all fall in the same exact category.

[Digital-Boy]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

All three are very good points. The accuracy in itself isn't the only problem, or even necessarily a problem at all. But the low recoil, low crouching modifier, and relatively short delay between proning and super-leet accuracy make the PKM a viable "assault weapon," instead of the defensive role it's supposed to be playing. (Well, I guess the role it's "supposed" to be playing is up for argument, but I think it's not supposed to be mobile weapon, per se.)

They just do not recoil after the patch.

For the record, the patch hasn't changed the recoil at all. The PKM has always had managable recoil.

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

I don't see any reason why a prone, established support player shouldn't be able to zing a sniper at long ranges. Good snipers are careful about their positions and their firing angles. Bad snipers expect to be able to plop down anywhere and fire freely against anything except other snipers.

Snipers that set up across from entrenched machinegunners ought to die (and I love sniping). Lazy gameplay doesn't justify changes to mechanics.

But that's just my point - machinegunners shouldn't be able to pick off long-range targets because that's simply not their role. Long-range work is the sniper's, and to a lesser extent spec ops', role. If we're speaking realistically here, ARs should be far more accurate than the carbines, and the carbines should be more powerful than they are now since they fire the same calibre bullets as ARs they just have have shorter barrels. But for balance's sake, DICE decided to make the carbines less powerful than ARs, but more accurate at range. It's realistically inaccurate, but for game balance I see why they did it.

Now I agree, bad snipers, and really bad players in general, should get the crap kicked out of them by any gun because they don't know where to snipe, where to approach a flag, how to flank an enemy, etc. But I'm talking about the gun itself and the role of the class. Sniper's role is long-range work because that's really all they can do (aside from the newfound TK-free claymore spamming, but that's another issue). Assault's role is to cap flags and take out infantry since they get a powerful and relatively mobile weapon along with body armour. Spec Ops' job is to be sneaky, they have C4 to bust up commander assets and a gun that is fairly weak but accurate so they're meant to stay on the fringe and not in the fray. Every class has their role. Support's job, aside from giving out ammo bags, is covering fire, not long-range work. A sniper finding a good sniping spot is important, yes, just like all tactics are, but you don't see many snipers rushing a flag because that's not their job and that's not what they're equipped to do. Support, IMO, is the polar opposite of sniper. Snipers are meant to shoot one extremely accurate shot, while concealed, to take down an opponent from a long ways off. Support, OTOH, is meant to clear the streets of hordes of onrushing enemy troops because they have a gun that fires fast and has a ton of ammo.

Sure, I feel that support gunners should be able to hit things at range because their bullets don't just disappear as soon as they travel a certain distance, but it shouldn't be as pinpoint accurate as it is now. You should need a lot of lead to hit something at range, not just three perfectly accurate single shots, even when prone. That's why my suggestion is to lower the max deviation and increase the min deviation, to, among other things, give support players a reason to use full auto over single shot and not expect to dominate infantry at every range, something no other class can attest to.

I fully expect, if I'm running down the street or in an alleyway with a prone Support gunner at the other end, that it's time to kiss my ass goodbye. What I don't expect is LMG users prone on the top of hills or buildings a long way from the combat zone zinging me as I'm running by giving me no idea where I'm being shot at from and expecting it to be a sniper.

~Wolfgang

[mr12es]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

I dont mind the fact that the LMGs are powerful and accurate its just that they need some sort of setup time or somat to stop people from spamming them on maps like Strike at Karkand. I went one game and i didnt get killed by any other weapon other than PKM :S. Surely something needs to be done about people running around, PKM held in hand, proning as soon as they see and enemy and within a second killing them, even at close range. I mean, 1 time I used a shotgun, and all the PKM spammers killed me in close combat! That isnt right.

[baroque]

Re: The Problem(s) with the PKM - and it's not the accuracy.

we dont have to be so deep -its overpowered, point and click, the bullets always go straight as laser and kills every single time. you even have a monster accuracy standing, and unlimited ammo and grenades.