Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

[WarGimp]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Chris: To troll for attention?
Sure, no prob.

When you start adding to the discussion, let me know.

In the meantime, I'll very much enjoy reading people's posts (like Duck's) who actually have something to say.

Kat: Are you suggesting that my comment on getting "one shotted" is more silly than the post it was in responce too? Come on yerself. I was poking a whole in a blatently stupid argument.

In case ya missed it, I conceded that mayhap air to air could use a little TLC and even went so far as to propose a real, workable fix. Unfortunatly, the worthless noise in the thread has once again burried it without any discussion.

This is a dead thread.

[F-1]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Thats why I specified my sentence with a "seem". It was a clear sign for you to clarify your argument

My argument was clear. it was a follow up to what wargimp said. you need reflex + your brain + teamwork + .... etc

Thatll make the AA not balanced because it takes skills to guide the machine gun into the green box, but doesnt take skills to wait for a lock and release 2 missiles? Im saying it just to sweat you, BTW. STA is almost fine on my list, ALMOST fine. ATA is BS.

I am not sure why you think I will sweat here! Anyway!

I do not want to go into another argument. I do not plan on picking on anyone and keep quoting whatever he says... etc. I joined this thread just to give some useful information that may make the discussion here more useful. If you have any comment regarding that info I posted then we will be glad if you share your opinion with us. I do not want this discussion to be another useless thread.... if you do not mind. All I wanted to tell in this thread is how exactly DICE implemented the AA which may help in using/avoiding/modifying it for a better gameplay.

[SK]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

SK, my English isnt perfect but I could have sworn that critisim and insults are 2 different things. Memory loss isnt that bad compared to being a retard, BTW. My sympathy to you.

Apparently you consider everything not "Planewhore, you´re our Master" to be an insult, otherwise I fail to see how you think there was no valid critisism.
Guess you´re an authority on being a retard from own experience.

[Kattspya]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Kat: Are you suggesting that my comment on getting "one shotted" is more silly than the post it was in responce too? Come on yerself. I was poking a whole in a blatently stupid argument.

In case ya missed it, I conceded that mayhap air to air could use a little TLC and even went so far as to propose a real, workable fix. Unfortunatly, the worthless noise in the thread has once again burried it without any discussion.

This is a dead thread.

I'm not sure which post you replied but I'm guessing the one about a hypothetical situation where infantry weapons were lock on. In that case you don't have a case. In that situation the infantry would have a lock warning.

[DrJambo]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Chris,

Wargimp's answer was perfectly sound and highlights a very important point, which is constantly being overlooked. Bf2 is an fps and being killed is always a part of an fps - skill will prevent some deaths but will not prevent you from dying (or at least it shouldn't in an fps).

The point is that highly skilled players still out-score less skilled players, kill more and die less, whether it be on the ground or in the air. Good pilots still win, good infantry still win. However, during this process, they will die and and they're not invulnerable. This has always been the case for the ground pounders, however pre-1.2, very good pilots in J-10s were essentially invulnerable - they could avoid missiles with lock through relatively simple manoeuvres each and every time. Even an equally skilled player in another jet couldn't touch them. This was and is wrong for any fps.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Apparently you consider everything not "Planewhore, you´re our Master" to be an insult, otherwise I fail to see how you think there was no valid critisism.
Guess you´re an authority on being a retard from own experience.

Looks like you havent read the full thread. I suggest you try several pages, just to have a grip on what was going on, before you step in and play the wise man.

If youre going to counter an argument with a word/sentence with a clear insult in it, then this cant be taken as a serious critisism. Thats my point.
Planewhores "I´m the best" attitude is somewhat funny, my personal view on "being the best" is that one can never be the best, but since I´ve never been in a dogfight with him, I will give him the benefit of the doubt. And because I hasnt been a pain in the ass, theres no reason for me to be a pain in the ass just for the sake of it.

Insult cant be taken as valid critisism. It cant be taken seriously. Youre a joke.

Wargimp, I find it hilarious that youre accusing me in trolling when obviously you were sniping me. A beauty of hypocricy.
Also note that its even more funnier that you accuse me in not being a part of the argument, while you have had your share of skinny and useless post aswell. Hypocrite X 2.

But I agree on that the thread is dead. I just wanted to see if it can get a bit more interesting. Obviously not.

Duck, nothing personal. I was looking for another interesting debate. But all that can be said, has been said.

[WarGimp]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

I'm not sure which post you replied but I'm guessing the one about a hypothetical situation where infantry weapons were lock on. In that case you don't have a case. In that situation the infantry would have a lock warning.

Yes, I get that. I was pointing out that the example give had no value to the discussion at hand simply because infantry don't get locked onto. If they did... well, that would be stupid, yeah?

I didn't suggest that planes shouldn't get a lock warning. Of cource they should. Actually, I like your idea about launch only... but in a different context. Wouldn't work in this one.

Whatever... this is another case of a dumb comment resulting in obfuscation of any useful discussion.

Seriously, in an attempt to salvage something from the steaming pile of turd that this thread hs become let me ask you, Kat, directly:

What would you think of planes needing to reaquire their lock per missile? Each time you fire a missile, you lose lock. In effect, it would extend dogfights signficantly without reducing theat posed to them by either ground based AA or other planes (so long as they can stay on your six).

I think it's the only real, implementable solution proposed so far and would like to hear something about it from the plane crowd.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Chris,

Wargimp's answer was perfectly sound and highlights a very important point, which is constantly being overlooked. Bf2 is an fps and being killed is always a part of an fps - skill will prevent some deaths but will not prevent you from dying (or at least it shouldn't in an fps).

The point is that highly skilled players still out-score less skilled players, kill more and die less, whether it be on the ground or in the air. Good pilots still win, good infantry still win. However, during this process, they will die and and they're not invulnerable. This has always been the case for the ground pounders, however pre-1.2, very good pilots in J-10s were essentially invulnerable - they could avoid missiles with lock through relatively simple manoeuvres each and every time. Even an equally skilled player in another jet couldn't touch them. This was and is wrong for any fps.

There is another way. Reduce the jets maneuverability or make all of the same class be equal to each other, NOT provide players with a 100% effective weapon. My main point is that experience and skills should help a player out of a sticky spot. As in most games, people die because they make a wrong choice in a critical situation. The ONLY choice that you can **** up in a dogfight is using the flares in the wrong time. After that, if the chaser is any good, the situation is out of your control. It shouldnt be this way, especially in an FPS.

Kat: Are you suggesting that my comment on getting "one shotted" is more silly than the post it was in responce too? Come on yerself. I was poking a whole in a blatently stupid argument.

I know my argument was silly. It was a comparision to currect dogfights, using the similar weapon characteristics. I would have wanted you to counter it, not snipe it (trolling?).

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

What would you think of planes needing to reaquire their lock per missile? Each time you fire a missile, you lose lock. In effect, it would extend dogfights signficantly without reducing theat posed to them by either ground based AA or other planes (so long as they can stay on your six).

Im going to answer to this aswell.

Prepatch, there was this little bothering details. Whenever I launched 2 missiles, the first hit, the second one almost always missed. I think that in a sense, this system was already implemented, partly.

Aquiring a lockon for each missile saves only time and delays death. Locking on to a target doesnt take too much in a dogfight. Increasing the lock time and THEN implementing the lock-per-missile system would gradually change it. It would also help the choppers- increased lock time, I mean. Pilots would have to reduce their speed a LOT to aquire the lock, thus giving pilots cover at least from missiles.

[Kattspya]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Yes, I get that. I was pointing out that the example give had no value to the discussion at hand simply because infantry don't get locked onto. If they did... well, that would be stupid, yeah?

Heh...
I thought that was the point. To underline the frustration of being shot down by autoaim weapons that can't be successfully countered post launch.

I didn't suggest that planes shouldn't get a lock warning. Of cource they should. Actually, I like your idea about launch only... but in a different context. Wouldn't work in this one.

No you didn't suggest that verbatim but it would be a pretty fun implementation of the AA.

Whatever... this is another case of a dumb comment resulting in obfuscation of any useful discussion.

Has that ever been the case on totalbf2 forums? I come here to try to correct a lot of misinformation and for part of my daily dose of arguing. DICE/EA will never implement any of the specific ideas here and if they did they'd probably botch it up. I've never had any hope of influencing the game via forums. That is possible on some forums where the devs behave more like mod teams.

What would you think of planes needing to reaquire their lock per missile? Each time you fire a missile, you lose lock. In effect, it would extend dogfights signficantly without reducing theat posed to them by either ground based AA or other planes (so long as they can stay on your six).

That would be a better implementation of the A2A for sure. I would still like the dogfights to be more WW-II like though with the cannon as the main weapon. But I don't think that was the intention with the first version.

As for SAM's I would accept leaving them as they are now if they make flares fully effective and lessen some of the really buggy behaviour.

A more advanced sollution would be something like PW suggested combined with a greater range.

I think it's the only real, implementable solution proposed so far and would like to hear something about it from the plane crowd.

I'm not sure if there has been any real suggestions about fixed A2A but your suggestion is fine by me. Note that I'm a helo whore though. My notion of great plane piloting comes from being either on the recieving end of my clanmates or as the co-pilot in the bomber. That said I would estimate that I'm alot better than 50% of ingame pilots. But that only means that I can bomb ground targets and actually damage them and use the cannon for jeeps. I can even do more than two bars of damage to an attack helo. Oh how most pilots suck at using the cannon in this game. But I'm not complaining unless my team is getting pwned by the good ones.

[iambananas]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

I havent bothered to read the last two pages of bitching, but I've given this thread a bit though and I must say it is a little to easy to shoot down enemy jets and choppers compared to what it was before the patch. This shouldnt be too hard to fix.

[Roger Smith]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

it is a little to easy to shoot down enemy jets and choppers compared to what it was before the patch.

i agree, but 1.12 aa wasnt good either. imo aa needs these three things.

-they should only go for the target thats locked, or flares, nothing else
-1.12 turn amount
-the target locking circle should emit a cone that confines the missiles flight path, this would mean if a target is flying past you, you would need to lead it to hit, the farther away, the larger the cone.

[jakswan]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

OK two camps,

1) Change the way dogfighting works so it's very much like 1.12, very high skill level to be succesful great feeling of achievement when succusful.

2) Leave as is.

Effect, 1.12 meant with the way players play the game that in reality players would not dogfight, check forum posts from the past I've seen players state they would not dogfight as it took too long. Maybe PW would, maybe I would, but how many, how often, it was rare.

Bottom line was that in 1.12 on the ground you'd be playing exposed to planes, your own fighters would be bombing the enemy and baseraping but taking out fighters very very rare. Heck as I could dogfight I could clear the skys of enemy planes in ten minutes in 1.12.

Now it's worth dogfighting (as quick as it is) so everyone can expect some cover. Has the skill be taken away, a little yes but you'll still win more battles than you lose if your good enough but other fighters will enagage now.

As a side note although the ground AA is not a big issue to an experianced pilot, if I spot someone behind me the first thing I'm doing is heading over friendly turf and praying that one of the guys on the ground is manning AA.

If I spot our players trying to take an important postion with AA on it you can be dam sure I'm going to help them it will be something less to think about.

PW you may have been a team player covering your team and taking on enemy fighters I certainly always tried to be a team player, but in 1.12 the majority of pilots were not team players, it was me me me.

I've also noticed you trying to pull chopper pilots onto your side in this debate, well I don't know what game your playing but I don't even bother with AA to take them out, cannons are the most effective way. Besides I agree choppers have a horrible deal with the new patch but that isn't what this thread is about.

[SK]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Looks like you havent read the full thread. I suggest you try several pages, just to have a grip on what was going on, before you step in and play the wise man.

I´ve read more than enough pages of Planewhore drivel on the PlanetBattlefield forums, you can believe me that his "I´m my biggest critic" is BS. So much for that.

[Batausu]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

If I may step into this discussion, here is my opinion:
-A plane vs. choppers is not a fair fight at all. I used to try to acquire lock on them, only to fire a missile and miss them or getting team damage. Now I use only cannon fire and they die fast. I think cannon on a plane are far too powerful against choppers: it would be better if planes would have to make the kill against them using missiles. Decrease the damage it does to a chopper in the range of support’s machine gun - I know, it’s not realistic, but could be a better balance. I do not use attack choppers, so I don’t know: are air-to-air missiles in a chopper the same as in a plane? If not, make them! Let’s fight fire with fire! Plane whore killed by chopper whore … now is the other way around!
-The way air to air missiles work now is what everyone thinks it should be changed. For a newbie it may be more fun, but for old pilots, it is not (personally I like it!). :)
The problem is how a missile decides which target to hit. We all know how it is in reality, but we can only guess how the programmers did it in this game.
Here is the way I would have done it:
Every 1/10 of a second or some reasonable interval of time:
{
If (missile = in the air)
{
Increment In the air timer (until max.).
If (In the air timer = max. value)
{
Missile acceleration = 0. //(Runs out of gas)
Speed decrease due to air friction and it falls.
}
If (missile position = ANY object position in the game)
{
BOOM! //Explodes when it hits anything.
//This should eliminate ‘insanity’.
Reset missile status.
}
If (missile = locked)
{
If (target = inside a cone of tracking capabilities)
{
If (multiple targets) //maybe flares
{
Missile picks one target at random.
}
Missile = update target position and follow target.
}
Else
{
Missile = NOT locked. //Lock is lost.
Lock timer = 0.
}
}
Else
{
//Here is a ‘dumb’ missile, no lock.
Missile = keep direction to last position of target.
}
}
Else
{
//Here the missile has not been released yet
//Every missile should acquire its own lock
If (target = inside a cone of locking capabilities)
{
Increment lock timer (until max).
If (lock timer >= desired time to acquire lock)
{
//Acquire an enemy target
Missile = locked.
BUZZ the pilot.
}
Else BEEP the pilot.
}
Else
{
Decrement lock timer (until min). //(or reset lock timer)
}
}
}
Targets should be any enemy objects in the air, like planes, choppers and flares.
Balance can be achieved by modifying some parameters, like the angle of the cone of locking/tracking capabilities (related to the characteristics of the planes), distance to target, time to acquire lock and missile speed.
If any of the programmers in charge of this patch takes a look in these forums, I hope they find some useful ideas and do a better job with it next time.
Until next time, have a good fight!

PS: How can you 'TAB' ??