1.2 Death of Attack Helis

[Sloi sauce]

Re: 1.2 Death of Attack Helis

You must understand, fellas, that 1.2 addresses the jet dominance by increasing AA efficacy. As you all know, it works... some will say just right; others, too well. This debatable point aside, we now know the following:

- AA code works the same on IGLA, AA vehicles and jets
- AA defies the known laws of physics to achieve its current success

Focusing on the jet problem for a moment, we can, after some observations, conclude that it works very well. Now let's turn our attention to the helicopters: their TV guided missile range has been decreased by one-third, their hit points have been decreased and finally, their speed and mobility does not even begin to match that of the jets.

What can we conclude from this ? As if it wasn't already easy enough to accomplish, vehicles can now destroy helicopters in record time: decent jet pilots no longer even need much skill to do so, regardless of their chosen weapon. You must understand that their is a serious conflict between the AA resolution and the nerfing of helicopters in this patch: this lack of balance is effectively killing them off.

I am not arguing that skilled pilots can remain productive in the air for a decent amount of time: circumstances permitting, helos can still be used devastatingly well... but if even one IGLA and jet focus on the helicopter, there is simply no way to evade death: essentially, jets are still too powerful and the current 'balance' makes a mockery of the R/P/S system.

My proposal would've been to do away with planes, but I'm not sure I appreciate the taste of stones, so I will refrain from making this suggestion.

[jbremer1]

Re: 1.2 Death of Attack Helis

I for one am glad they neutered the helo's and jets. In fact I dont think they did enough. I know BF2 is not intended to be ultra realistisc, but helos are very succeptable to ground fire in real life, im not talking about missles, im talking about .50cal's, PKM's, even regular assualt weapons can do damage and even take one down.

Id like them to make it so you can shoot the pilots/passengers, at least. I know you can do it with the M95, but you should be able to with most weapons. IMHO

[Lugal317]

Re: 1.2 Death of Attack Helis

I for one am glad they neutered the helo's and jets. In fact I dont think they did enough. I know BF2 is not intended to be ultra realistisc, but helos are very succeptable to ground fire in real life, im not talking about missles, im talking about .50cal's, PKM's, even regular assualt weapons can do damage and even take one down.

Id like them to make it so you can shoot the pilots/passengers, at least. I know you can do it with the M95, but you should be able to with most weapons. IMHO

That just wouldn't work when you have to fight in such close proximity to the troops. It wouldn't be FAIR and it would be absolutely retarded.

[Kattspya]

Re: 1.2 Death of Attack Helis

I for one am glad they neutered the helo's and jets. In fact I dont think they did enough. I know BF2 is not intended to be ultra realistisc, but helos are very succeptable to ground fire in real life, im not talking about missles, im talking about .50cal's, PKM's, even regular assualt weapons can do damage and even take one down.

Id like them to make it so you can shoot the pilots/passengers, at least. I know you can do it with the M95, but you should be able to with most weapons. IMHO

I would accept high caliber weapons damaging helos but then I want FLIR, an ability to see soldiers from a distance greater than 150m, a cannon that rips appart infantry with a near miss, destroys a jeep in a a couple of hits, FFAR's that have a lethal zone of 20+ meters, 2km range on the wire guided.

You shouldn't bring in realism arguments because it will bite you in the ass.

[jbremer1]

Re: 1.2 Death of Attack Helis

I would accept high caliber weapons damaging helos but then I want FLIR, an ability to see soldiers from a distance greater than 150m, a cannon that rips appart infantry with a near miss, destroys a jeep in a a couple of hits, FFAR's that have a lethal zone of 20+ meters, 2km range on the wire guided.

You shouldn't bring in realism arguments because it will bite you in the ass.

Not quite sure how that "bites me in the ass", but anyways im all for more realism. But if its realism you want, cannon fire in real life wont rip infantry apart with a near miss and most FFAR's dont have a lethality zone of 20m let alone 20+.

[Kattspya]

Re: 1.2 Death of Attack Helis

Not quite sure how that "bites me in the ass", but anyways im all for more realism. But if its realism you want, cannon fire in real life wont rip infantry apart with a near miss and most FFAR's dont have a lethality zone of 20m let alone 20+.

Are you telling me a near miss with 30mm HE won't incapacitate you? Are you telling me a FFAR going off 20 meters from you won't incapacitate you? Most "kills" even in realistic games is simulated incapacitation not a kill.

I meant it would bite you in the ass because you would rarely even be able hit with the .50. I would hover near the horizon beyond your viewing distance and let my gunner pummel you with the cannon. Same goes for tanks with the wire guided.

Another point is that BF2 isn't realistic and will never become realistic. For my realism does I'm waiting for Armed Assault and Red Orchestra. I'm not trying to **** over arcade players.

[scott123]

Re: 1.2 Death of Attack Helis

The adjustment made in BF2 with the latest patch was not to address complaining from other groups, rather it was made to ballance the game. I'm not sure why this wasn't discovered during beta, but everyone who is objective knows that the helo's dominate many of the maps. A good helo pilot can simply take over a map, which is not what Dice intended.

The vast majority of BF2 players are ground forces, therefore this patch addresses the need for ground forces to respond to attacking aircraft. No matter what anyone says, SAMs simply didn't get it done. You had a much better chance hitting a friendly pilot rather then an enemy.

Aircraft are still very deadly, but (just like in real life) they can be taken down if not careful. This is the way it was meant to be played (no pun intended), not having the entire session become a bombing campain.

Its only natural for those who took advantage of the previous versions of BF2 to feel dissed, but its not the fault of other players. This issue should have been addressed before the game was ever released in the first place.

[Sir. bzb]

Re: 1.2 Death of Attack Helis

Overall i think the Heli amour is fine, but i think they should have left the weapons in tacked. The aa hasn’t been available for long enough to draw conclusions about its strengths.

People do say a lot about teamwork in a chopper and that’s great on 4 player servers but there aren’t any. Teamwork isn’t such an insular thing as co-operation within a vehicle or even a squad, it does involve the entire team, teamwork is only achieved by the entire team, by definition it requires a team to achieve and is a separate thing from single squads or individuals co operating in a limited capacity. A server full of squads is not necessarily the same as a server with good teamwork. Hence why a plane can see the aa site. I think that should serve as a clue as to which vehicle should be dealing with it in the sense of teamplay.
The plane is still hard to hit, especially when dive bombing, you don’t have time to lock and you have to be looking in the right direction in the first place if you do get a lock. The actual team has to work together to deal with the aa sites, spec ops can take it out, even a sniper can render it useless but a plane is the quickest tool. I think planes now have a primary purpose in clearing a path for the copters, rather than being the random killing machine that they have been. It is a big change for the ‘L33t’ pilots to have to take on a function within a team but I think they will adapt over time. Also I think the aa issue will die down a little once the ground pounders have given fair payback for all those runway t’kills, but in honesty it is a new tool on the battlefield and it has a huge novelty value at the moment and id suggest it wont be so well manned in a few weeks time.

Tank vs chopper…. You didn’t see that tank? Not paying attention or standing still in enemy territory will leave you dead if your any other class, especially where an enemy tank is involved, why should the chopper be immune from this or get a second chance? The attack copter is very capable of destroying any threat from range, wanting to look the enemy in the eye is very noble but foolish. A tank also blatantly gives away what its aiming at so you know if its trying to get you, in the same way that long pointy stick on the turret also gives a clue as to the best angle of attack, which is from any direction other than the one its pointing in for every other class bar plane, why make an exception for a chopper?. Tanks simply cant out maneuver a copter, any tank that takes down a chopper has taken down a seriously stupid pilot most of the time. You can fly circles round a tank faster than it can rotate its turret and it doesn’t have tv guided shells. Besides which you don’t get in a tank with air defense on your mind, if given the opportunity you take it but tank as aa requires pilot error to work and is hardly ever likely to be the mainstream use of a tank.

Mobile aa is fine now. Its sole purpose is to take down things in the air before things in the air take it out or anything its protecting. Its extremely vulnerable to tanks, apcs and even infantry since you are looking at the sky not the ground. It is therefore a long way from being the super weapon that people describe it as. A good team will insure this vehicle is located and taken out if it wants any air support; a chopper or plane or commander is capable of reporting its location without having to put itself at risk, the purpose of the vehicle dictates that the last thing that should try and take it out or approach it is something that flies. But again the mobile aa has to be looking in the right direction to shoot a plane or copter down, given that generally you look straight ahead I am amazed at how many pilots concluded that flying head on at my guns was a great idea. It doesn’t require a lot of thought not to get shot down by the mobile aa.
Sorry pilots but you do now have to consider the best approach to attack from and not simply plough through all enemy units with impunity. People are still having great success in choppers and planes simply because they have realized that you can no longer attack things head on and expect to win. The air vehicles can now be countered in the same way as everything else in the game always has been. The aa can be countered by just about anything, including a knife. With the amount the term ‘teamwork’ is spewed about I am amazed at the inability to use it to overcome enemy’s defenses. The tools are in the game, it is just the players attitude to how they should be used that has lead to the complaints about aa. I don’t see why people are of the opinion that the attack copters should be a stand alone element in the game, when acting apart from the team everything must be vulnerable when with the team it must be closer to invulnerable- backed by infantry or mobile aa or armour the attack chopper is far from vulnerable, it is only when the choppers go ‘Rambo’ that they risk certain death.

[SQUiB]

Re: 1.2 Death of Attack Helis

Quite possibly the best post ever on these forums. Good job satanbzb.

[aLLyBOOM]

Re: 1.2 Death of Attack Helis

Considering that i played a round on Sharqi yesterday and a guy in the heli got 88 kills 2 deaths suggests if you really know how to use it you can still do well...

[Sgt.BoscoBA]

Re: 1.2 Death of Attack Helis

LOL... Just want to chime in again on this topic and say, IM LOVING THE NEW PATCH!! Last night was my first ,long play on the new 1.2 version. What a fun and EVEN battle was had each time, on multiple servers. AA is fun, the new sniper rifle is NICE and the other tweeks just make the game feel better. Now the bugs are annoying but will be worked out. Get some flying skills all you crying pilots. Or come get owned by the ATEAM ont he ground.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: 1.2 Death of Attack Helis

Christ... Christoph. It didn't work bud'. You could line a Helo up 50m in front of an static Anti-Air defense, fire both missiles without the Helo flaring, and have both missiles fly off into the blue yonder and strike a friendly.

:laugh: , first, I will give you a cookie. You definitely spoiled a good name with a nice touch of humour. If you only knew the background of tha name. LOL; I already sense a lot of people sharing wimilar interests with me laughing if they hear the name "Christopher Redfield". That was definitely a nice touch.

Anyhow. I had a problem hitting a stable chopper maybe 1 out of every 10th missile. Didnt have a problem with them. However, I did choose an angle at which I shot at them depending on the range.

There is no amount of skill that can compensate consistantly for the A.A. "picking" it's own targets. As it did almost 50% of the time pre-patch.

Actually you could- its called timing. Part of the AA handling skills.

Even in gathering logic and skill, I was still able to make the A.A. hit about 50% of the time on a target it should have decimated (Stationary Helo, Jet flying away from my position without banking). What other abbilities do you need in order to fire a weapon that's guided "NOT" by your hand, but by locking onto your enemy? Short of setting myself up for a completely logical shot, and pulling the trigger, what else should I have been doing? Praying? ...should I have been working on some time of hack? Maybe jump on the missie and surf it up to the completely oblivious jet pilot? What? I'm at a loss for what more I could have done to increase the hit percentages...

One thing you have to understand (if you didnt already). As a fire and forget weapon you cant determine the weapons course "post launch". But you can "pre launch" and this is what most of the better AAers are talking about. Im in no means the best, but at certain moments the correct approach to handling an AA resuler many kills for me.

...as for nerfing the Helo armor. I don't mind it at all. It gives the "Tank" role back to that of a "Tank". A helo should not be able to float with the assurance that the first Anti-Tank round that collides with him can serve as a warning sign. Instead of an immediate death threat.

You see. If a helo is forced to fly low and fast and be suspectible to small arms fire and basically everything infantry has- its armor HAS to be strong enough.

...I agree? Helos could be taken down by .50 cal fire. Don't think I ever disagreed with this. On to the next issue...

So why reduce the armor?

If you were hit by static A.A. in a Jet Pre-Patch. You weren't doing somthing right. I was maybe hit by static A.A. twice in my entire time of flying a jet (As limited as that may be, I cannot stand to sit in the stupid things the entire round. They get boring and repetitive). Hell, stationary A.A. sites just served as a pest... they threw of my sense of "lock". I never could tell if it was a little annoying peon on the earth's surface, or an enemy fighter. Until I looked over my shoulder...

You know, one can never fly 100% in loops. I said I was in a middle of an engagement. And when I was hit I was going into a loop. I think the AAer was either lucky or he had good timing. It only takes 1 second to look back so its easy to tell whos locking on to you. But when you go for the AA, and it appears another AA is locked on to you, wouldnt it be a PERFECT time for the other AA to shoot you when youre leveled and going after the AA you thought was locking on to you? Thats right--- teamwork and timing.

But, really. Static A.A. was all but worthless Pre-Patch against jets.

I would call them "not efficient enough". Not completely worthless. It was worthless to those who though "Press E, aim, press mouse twice" would do the trick .

How's it an ignorant statement? I fly Helos as well, and truth be told it's about the same as the first week I started. Granted, I'm now able to judge the width of all the Helos in respect to one another. I know more about the game, and how each Helo should be implemented. Yet, my ability to navigate, and balance the weapon, hasn't changed. I'm still the innate pilot I was to begin with..

I seriously dont believe that you fly and treat a helo just as you did the first day. No sir. I may see a point in what youre saying but dont go over the top.

Now Jets, those took me some time. I went from Mouse, to Joystick, back to Mouse. Then I finally decided I don't like jets, and I don't use them unless my team needs me to keep the skies clean. Yet, I surely don't bomb in the things. Especially the fighter, it's a waste of time.

Actually most people have said that its harder to fly a jet than a helicopter. Maybe being an uber1337 pilot is easier to be in helos than jets (I disagree still... Ive been owned too many times after my hard training). This comes from a guy who flied flight sims with the correct avionics and tools for both jets and choppers. I remember when I sat in the seat and started flying the chopper, the real chopper pilots were called in and asked to watch how I treated the flight stick (completely different than them- they were advised to jerk around with it to keep it level, my flight skick was leveling the chopper by moving only millimetres), but still, after 5 minutes of "flying" I was totall exhausted and crashed. Not to mention I couldnt take off nor land. Then I remember my first flight in MSFS2002 and I did pretty OK. Didnt land of course, but heck. So in every game, using even the right tools, flying a chopper was multiple times harder than flying a jet. Balance, more ways to turn, and a lot of other factors. In BF2 so far, its been the same. BTW, Im flying both jets and choppers with a joystick.

...bold? Maybe. Ignorant? Hardly. I know what I'm talking about because I have first hand experience. While it might vary from yours, I still stick by the notion that piloting is easy. Gunning isn't so hard in its self either. Although, I don't gun. I'm a pilot. Not a gunner...

I stick by mine that piloting isnt hard but o get the skills to come to that point is. And it does require a lot of skills, but a little effort to maintain them and use them.

...my Unit's gunner, and myself, do and excelent job of piloting a Helo. He takes out what needs to be taken out, I line him up for shots only using missiles when it's dire situation. A.A. doesn't pose any threat to me because I know it's location, and I have faith that my gunner is capable of taking them out on the outskirts of their targeting capability.

Ive seen some wicked gunners out there and I admire the skills. But BF2 should never be a game where newbes cant do **** and only experienced players use the hardware.

So. No, you're wrong. Your perception of the limitation of Helos only applies to you and a select other group of Pilots. Doesn't seem to apply to me and the rest. Most of the pilots in game have learned to adapt. I don't see what's holding you back. Sure, I don't finish with 50pts in a round. Yet, I do finish with around 25 or so, and my gunner around 50+. We do just fine, and clear the way for the serious flyboys. What do you spend your time doing?

Thats because you seem to play in servers where people arent interested in taking down that helo as much as they should . Maybe.

Well. I guess I should underline that I'm a "Jack of all Trades". I fly, I pound, and and drive the hell out of a FAV. So, my opinions on the issue are completely unbiased.

Doesnt make you right, but arguably more right than me on certain topics.

[imported_The 13th Raptor]

Re: 1.2 Death of Attack Helis

I thought you <<R2>> guys were above calling other people noobs and crybabies, good job at proving me wrong. Dont worry, i wont hold it against your entire clan.

You are put off with your bf2 "profession" being harder to perform now, and thus bitter at those that complained about the dominance of airpower and general. I can sorta understand, but you need to step back for a second. We did not ask for things to be boosted, or nerfed. We laid out the problem to Dice, and they dealed with it, its not our fault if they overdid things. (even tho im not sure they were). So ease off on the "OMG U GUYS SUCK WTF CRY" attitude will you?

Ive seen helicopter pilots rack up very decent scores when there were plenty enemy jets around, yes they died more then once, but they did their job.Either you are not as skilled as you think you are, or you got some very very good pilots on your server. If its the latter, suck it up and adapt, just like we "infantry noobs" needed to do when you were circling that Wake spawn with your flying tank.

[imported_Tumbler]

Re: 1.2 Death of Attack Helis

I was flying on dragon valley last night and every single AA site was manned. Sure I took some out but the others always got me. I always made them a priority before to take them out and still do.Then the planes never missed. Nothing worked, dropping flares, 360 turns, swerving, barrell rolls, back flips you name it, nothing worked against a plane.

If every single AA site was manned, why in hell are you flying into that area? What do you expect to happen, drop flares and you magically make through? That's like arguing that if you run into 5 enemies and they all start shooting at you, you should be able to dolphin dive your way to safety, cause anything else is unfair to you.

[sus100]

Re: 1.2 Death of Attack Helis

Can't see what the problem is with the patch. how many times in the 1.12 patch, did helicopters hover over thwe infantry or flag, blasting at anything that moved and not worrying about damage or dying. Come on guys that used to be so lame. A helo just hovering there with no worries...
Now they have to worry about losing a life ooops. Think it takes more skill than a ground pounder.
Well lets see.
Groundpounder- gets killed by anything that moves, and things that don't move (boxes). out of 64 players on a server 70 can kill him.

helo- Gets killed by planes, vodniks, AA and maybe the odd tank.

now tell me which one has or nedds the most skill to survive.