Jets: BF2's only true downfall.

[3Libras]

Re: Jets: BF2's only true downfall.

I find your logic disturbing

Let me demonstrate, say someone argues to play the game you dont have to have to shoot to kil other people, they whine everytime they get shot that not everyone should be required to fire a gun to survive in this game, and hence, they call for a nerf for all guns in the game. The same applies to armor/choppers.

Alright, let me rephrase your own words
The guns ruins the gameplay , and theres no real threat to them (from someone who dosnt have a gun). As a civilian you are sitting ducks to those guns, and theres NOTHING you can do to fight gun-holding people with poor pistol.

I find your logic hysterical. Lmao. It was meant to be, right?

[IVfluids]

Re: Jets: BF2's only true downfall.

hey IVfluids, I remember you from the DC forum...

anyways I think jets are only one of several of BF2s downfalls...they are really annoying though. I never did get how they can be 100% accurate all the time

Hey, nice to be remembered lol.

Anybody can fly in this game, that is a fact, but anyone could fly in DC also. But, there is a very huge gap between the amount of players that are very good pilots (very few also) and the pilots that are average. Anybody can hop in a jet and do some damage with bombing, but when you get in a map with a very good pilot vs the average guy, the average guy is going to get frustrated because he can't do what he thinks he is good at.

I used to only bomb **** in the first month of the game, but then I started to chase after other jets and learned when the proper time is to use guns and when to use missiles. So now I mix it up quite a bit and go from bombing enemy vehicles, shooting down other jets and even bombing the commanders **** (now that I mentioned that).

I had always done this on certain maps (Clean Sweep, Daqing for example), and now is a better time than any to do that, you get points for blowing that **** up. It not only helps your team tremendously, it ****es off the other commander and his team when they can't get the **** they want. You can take their trailers out in short order with the bombers, you have to be very accurate and know the location of the trailers by heart if you are using the fighter jets.

[Pirelli]

Re: Jets: BF2's only true downfall.

The jet pilots will become better and better with time - so the jet problem is going to get worse in time as more and more pilots get more effective, while the AA remains ineffective.

[vbl]

Re: Jets: BF2's only true downfall.

I flew pretty heavily in BF 1942, and even more in DC. Now that I've logged a little time in BF2, here's my perspective - like it or not:

There are some pretty alarming advancements in the capabilities of the fighter jets in BF 2 that, in relation to the aircraft in 42/DC, put them far ahead of the other BF2 elements.

BF 1942:
BF 1942 fighters had guns and one bomb. The guns were the only choice for air engagements, and the single bomb was for ground targets. Strafing soft ground targets also worked if you could lead them properly. Rearming meant making a relatively slow flight back to the base.

Landbound countermeasures included mobile and static flak cannons that required a proximity hit to register damage, but the actual damage wasn't substantial enough to drop planes super fast. It did do well in making a point and driving aircraft away to repair.

All targets were sight spotted, or identified from teammates.

Desert Combat:
In DC, fighters didn't have bombs at all. They had air to air missiles and cannons. This made pilots less inclined to attack ground targets (though most of us could use the twin guns on the Mirage to wax everything short of an MBT), and more inclined to hunt helicopters and the real ground threat, bombers/attack aircraft.

DC jets had an easier time rearming since flight speeds became significantly faster than in 42.

Landbound countermeasures included static AA sites, be it flak or ZPU, but also mobile AA units in the Shilka and Vulcan. Infantry also had handheld stingers. Further, most fighter pilots hunted other aircraft, since the fighter equipment and armament were geared for that specific purpose.

Air targets could be picked up on the airborne radar, but only if you were above the target. Pilots could also sight spot, or receive spots from teammates.

Battlefield 2:
In BF 2 the fighter jets are far more well-equipped to kill everything. Each fighter has two bombs, increasing the sheer explosive power of a run, but also making it easier to get kills since the extra bomb means a bombing run can be looser than in 42, where you had to bullseye targets.

The BF2 fighter cannons are effective against everything short of a main battle tank, and put out an amazing amount of bullets and damage - making hitting infantry a proximity affair, ala the Blackhawk minigun.

BF 2 jets also have AA missiles to address helicopters and other air targets.

Rearming happens far more quickly in BF2 given the fighters' increased speed.

Landbound counters to BF2 fighters include static 2-shot stinger sites, and the occasional mobile AA vehicles that rely on the same stingers to take out jets. The stingers are difficult to use for all but the most well-versed anti-AA players, and often hit friendly targets. Ground AA also gets confused by the burning oil towers, where applicable, but the fighter jets' ground radar remains unaffected under the same circumstances. Jets can also use flares to break AA lock.

There are no handheld AA weapons.

Fighters jets include both air and ground radar, meaning that finding targets is as easy as making a broad overflight and noticing the little squares and diamonds. Often the ground radar targeting squares will show targets before the geometry resolves, making target recognition and attack approachs a lot easier (and safer) than in DC or 42.

Further, the ground radar picks up everything that isn't infantry. This includes tanks, APCs, Jeeps, mobile AA, AA sites, and probably even static TOW launchers (though I'm not sure about that last one). It's also important to note that there are no countermeasures to confuse ground radar, like flares or vehicles with reduced radar profiles.

It seems to me that BF2 fighters have evolved - and rightly so - but the other aspects of the game that typically balance fighters were hastily designed or totally immasculated.

[3Libras]

Re: Jets: BF2's only true downfall.

Any jet that only bombs sucks
Any jet that only do AA sucks

The may gun can deal equal damage to both air and ground, if you learn how to master the main gun, you can easily get 70 kills per round with 0-1 death.

Jets are overpowered, but not because the design should be nerfed but because its too hard for average 12 years old to get good at.

If no one on your team knows how to drive a tank properly, your team will be crushed by the single armor on the other team, hence the armor nerf threads

If no one on your team knows how to fly the chopper, the enemy chopper will own your team, hence the chopper nerf thread

If no one on your team knows how to shoot a gun properly, then the enemy will crush your team, hence the gun nerf threads

So the conclusion is, there will be people whining about anything other people knows and they dont, if something is known by everyone, no one complains, if something is hard for most people to learn, they will whine until one day only noob tube remains.

You pilots are really stubborn at trying to justify your weakness. You just like to pick on the weak and rack up the scores, admit it.

Anyways that's just bullocks.

Enemy tanks can be taken out with AT mines, C4, SRAW/Eryx, choppers, other tanks, jets, grenades and hell I've probably even left something out.

Enemy choppers narrow it down a little. They're a bit easier (though impossible if it's a good pilot) to take down with stationary AA, SRAW/Eryx, grenade launchers (seriously, try it), the M95, .50 cal machine guns, and I've even managed to get close enough to tag a C4 on one once or twice.

Why don't we go over what it takes to shoot down a jet, dearest? Your argument is null. Many people don't bother to learn how to fly because dealing with the Runway Party is just as frustrating as accepting the learning curve. Yes, that's right. It does take skill to fly. But once you have that skill you're invincible unless the other team has a REALLY good pilot. I suppose I lean on the argument that jets are fine but the AA are underpowered.. Flak would be nice, but.. That's a bit too oldschool for bf2. Built-in radar, better tracking, faster and more powerful missiles are all it takes IMO.

[CS-Evolution]

Re: Jets: BF2's only true downfall.

The anti air dont track planes and its not underpowered??? lol, thats a funny statement. its the games job to make sure that humans cant misuse the games weapons. The AA dont work against jets - now how is that not a game problem?

You didn't understand what I said... AA is not underpowered... you can take down an aircraft in 2 hits. Something doesn't have to be underpowered to be ineffective. They're not mutally exclusive.

Now, I've shot down my share of jets with AA (about a dozen out of 60 kills with AA). But that only works when the plane is moving slowly. AA isn't underpowered, its just ineffective against fast moving targets. And I support this being fixed.

But I disagree that "learn to fly" is a lamefix as you call it... Jets WOULD NOT have their way in this game with ground forces if there was a semblacne of air superiority. Just because you or no one on your team can't counter a pilot whose bombing your ground forces doesn't make airplanes a "broken" aspect of gameplay.

Look at my stats. I'm certainly not a jet fanboy. But I don't buy these outrageous arguements against them. I've seen the screenshots of how good a pilot can do, but its so rare that it's unfair to use those to represent the problem.

[Pirelli]

Re: Jets: BF2's only true downfall.

A weapons power in a game is reflected by the ability to function against the enemy. If the weapon cant affect the enemy - it has no power. The AA in the game can only take down really poor pilots.

Now, forcing people to buy a joystick and get into the jet for the sake of balancing the game is lame. All other weapons have multiple enemies from the ground. And as i stated before - most of the time, jets pilots dont hunt eachother, but just keep pounding groundforces that has no means to take it down. A very good pilot could just aswell have been using a wallhack - the problem would be at the same level. For the ground forces, its no difference as long as the pilot cant be touched.

[SpeedyGonzales]

Re: Jets: BF2's only true downfall.

Every map that has airplanes is ultimately doomed until ground troops have a proper Anti-Air option.

Without useful ground-to-air AA, only can other jets challenge jets that rule the sky.

So, it comes down to pilot skill. Well, unless the best jet pilot from both teams are of equal skill, one will dominate the other. Whichever team has the dominating pilot, wins the round. Period.

Why? Because, without another pilot in the sky to threaten him, and no useful AA for ground troops, a jet is free to do what it likes to the opposing team. This means attacking their jets, helis, transport helis, bombing tanks on the ground, squads, etc.

Needless to say, I've been practicing flying.

How are your flight skills?

Discuss.

I guess its cool to fly aircraft in BF2.. I mean the graphics and the
battlefield below is all cool...

but what you get is.. a bunch of kiddies fighting over them on the carrier
deck or a far off airfield somewhere while the real team players, imo,
the grunts like me, are fighting for control points..

personally I see absolutely no value to having a jet pilot on my team..
9 out of 10 times hes gonna drop his bombs on me sooner or later in
the round, anyway.. But what I see 99% of the time is 2 jets chasing
each other around and around in circles all game long..

And then to make matters worse, if and when a jet whore scores the
most points in the team, they act like they actually did something..
but after a close review of his team points.. in a lot of cases less than 5
for a whole round, thats just sad.

[CS-Evolution]

Re: Jets: BF2's only true downfall.

Pirelli- I think we agree that there needs to be a better means for ground forces to affect aircraft. My definition of power was the punch packed by each missle, yours is the overall effectiveness. We shouldn't squabble over that. Lets just say AA sucks ****.

Speedy- What you say you see 99% of the time contradicts the arguement everyone else here is making against aircraft: that they bomb all the time and never engage eachother. And once again, I have to correct your incorrect assumption that jet pilots don't help their team. Since every kill takes one ticket away from the enemy, I'd argue that they are a teams most valuable asset in winning.

I still see this as a human problem, and not an inherent problem with the program (AA issues aside). Do you nerf jets simply because people aren't using them they way they were "intended"? I.E., fighters playing an air superiority role against bombers on maps?

I see all these threads today, and worry that DICE is simply going to nerf jets because so many people seem to be ****ed about getting killed by them. They get started because some kid was getting owned by a jet in a round, and decided to come in here and whine, and all the usual suspect sympathizers joined their cause, just like with the M203, Blackhawk, etc...

[SpeedyGonzales]

Re: Jets: BF2's only true downfall.

Pirelli- I think we agree that there needs to be a better means for ground forces to affect aircraft. My definition of power was the punch packed by each missle, yours is the overall effectiveness. We shouldn't squabble over that. Lets just say AA sucks ****.

Speedy- What you say you see 99% of the time contradicts the arguement everyone else here is making against aircraft: that they bomb all the time and never engage eachother. And once again, I have to correct your incorrect assumption that jet pilots don't help their team. Since every kill takes one ticket away from the enemy, I'd argue that they are a teams most valuable asset in winning.

I still see this as a human problem, and not an inherent problem with the program (AA issues aside). Do you nerf jets simply because people aren't using them they way they were "intended"? I.E., fighters playing an air superiority role against bombers on maps?

I see all these threads today, and worry that DICE is simply going to nerf jets because so many people seem to be ****ed about getting killed by them. They get started because some kid was getting owned by a jet in a round, and decided to come in here and whine, and all the usual suspect sympathizers joined their cause, just like with the M203, Blackhawk, etc...

yeah my 99% figure is eggageration.. (<- I always had trouble spelling that word..)
So I'll say 'more times than not'..

And for your -1 tickets per kill... blah! I dont care how many kills he
gets.. Its sure as hell rare they are helping me, I can tell you that..
and if the enemy owns the whole map because 8 or 9 of your teammates
are all fighting each other for a chopper or jet on the carrier, then you
got to not only factor in the no value of the 1 guy who got the jet,
but the other 6 who are STILL goofing off on the deck.

Its a major source of non teamwork, imo.

Dont get me wrong.. Ive seen some good chopper and jet pilots
who help their team.. but they are far and few between.. personally,
I would have 5 times more fun on EVERY map without any of them..
and yeah, I know how to fly both jets and choppers, so im not someone
whos just saying this because I cant do any of it myself..

[amstyle]

Re: Jets: BF2's only true downfall.

learn to fly!!!!

[yzfwv]

Re: Jets: BF2's only true downfall.

The thing I noticed today placing on Wake island, is that AA really does suck. I was sitting in the carrier turret when a jet came flying at me and I unloaded the gun on it until it overheated and dropper as many seeking missles as I could until he blew me up...and I still didn't kill him.

Now, some one might call bad aim...but He was flying directly at me and didn't shoot of any kind of missle deterent.

[shadow_wolf]

Re: Jets: BF2's only true downfall.

Desert Combat:
In DC, fighters didn't have bombs at all. They had air to air missiles and cannons. This made pilots less inclined to attack ground targets (though most of us could use the twin guns on the Mirage to wax everything short of an MBT), and more inclined to hunt helicopters and the real ground threat, bombers/attack aircraft.

on the contrary, youre forgetting the F-14s, they has a co-pilot bomb position.

I miss the jets from DC because they required some skill to fly, you had to judge trajectory well or no kill for you. no heat seeking lock on junk.

[vbl]

Re: Jets: BF2's only true downfall.

on the contrary, youre forgetting the F-14s, they has a co-pilot bomb position.

The F-14 was an exception that didn't show up on enough maps to matter, and the reliance on a co-pilot to drop the bombs reduced their effectiveness drastically.

[shadow_wolf]

Re: Jets: BF2's only true downfall.

yep, no guided junk

besides youre also forgetting all of the A10 warthog variants, which are on just about every map