The presence of gravity... now a question.

[imported_Wasp]

Re: The presence of gravity... now a question.

Yet these videos prove exactly the opposite of what you say? I KNOW there is bullet drop because I fire with it with M24/M95 all the time. I MUST fire above my target (slightly so at 300m) more noticable at anything higher than that. I have hit targets using the 500m hash on the M95 scope as well. If it's "Random" deviation... why does it ALWAYS deviate DOWN? Not so random...

This much I know is fact.

Take an AK101 and fire a few rounds on a wall about 20 meters in front of you. Look at how each bullet deviates from the one before it. What you see is only decals representing a hit (ultimately it's the server who decides) but it proves my point. Now put this logic into the sniper rifle (the deviation is smaller but it's still there).

Now I'm gonna introduce another term. PACKET TRAVEL TIME!! The time it takes for the server to verify your hit and send the packets to you through a sh|tload of cables and routers. The only thing the 1-2 sec response proves in Zagashi's video is that he is either playing on a crap server or has a crap connection.. SHEESH!!!

[A$$a$$ination]

Re: The presence of gravity... now a question.

There is bullet drop but i doubt lead time. that is more likely from what ^he is saying lag.

[Munchies]

Re: The presence of gravity... now a question.

There is a bullet drop but its bearly noticable, try going in the code and slowing down the projectiles and you'll see.

[evilzucchini]

Re: The presence of gravity... now a question.

Wasp,

IF distance vectors/rays or bullets as we wrongly call them where coded differently for each weapon then the game would run at 1 FPS due to massive CPU overload. Ask any 3D programmer (I have).. Either all bullets have a small travel time which is the same for all rifles or most likely there is none.

A couple of things. First, this isn't simply a 3D programming issue. It is mainly a physics engine issue.

Second, I have to question whether or not you ACTUALLY asked a programmer or if you correctly understood them.

I have done some work on a basic physics engine. I have a friend who has designed his own physics engine (albeit, only 2d) and has worked on a 3D physics engine as well.

From my experience and my discussions, your point that they all have to be the same speed or the FPS would be totally shot is incorrect. They are all acted upon in the same way; they are all subjected to the same physics. All you would have to do is give two different weapons two different starting velocities and you would see two different drops over the same distance. This would actually be very easy to program into a decent physics engine and they have a very good one.

Amtrak,

I more often miss shots at 50m from elevated positions when aiming for the head (using M95 seems to do it more), it drifts just above it...just barely enough for me to miss. Bullet rise is a characteristic of ballistics in where the round will rise slightly in the first 50-100m of travel, and then fall back to an arc trajectory. Although, this is a RL thing, I doubt they coded this...

Do you have an explanation for this? I don't see what could possibly cause "bullet rise." The only thing I could think that would possibly cause it would be lift and the same effect that causes a baseball curve ball to curve. Lift cannot be created because the bullet is spinning along the axis in which it is fired and any foil that creats would cancel itself out. Futhermore, having a bullet with a foil in it is a very bad design because it would cause it to "wobble." I can't see the "curve ball" working either because that would require an axis of spin perpendicular to the axis it was fired in.

[evilzucchini]

Re: The presence of gravity... now a question.

Look at how each bullet deviates from the one before it. What you see is only decals representing a hit (ultimately it's the server who decides) but it proves my point.

No, it doesn't prove your point that the drop we see everytime is a result deviation. If you look at the weapon specs table, the deviation multiplier for the sniper rifle through the sights is something like 0.05 while for every other weapon it is over 1.00. So deviation hardly plays a role. Do your deviation test with the sniper rifle looking down the sights in the prone position. You will probably only see one hole.

The only thing the 1-2 sec response proves in Zagashi's video is that he is either playing on a crap server or has a crap connection.. SHEESH!!!

Ahh, good point. But that does not disprove travel time, only makes the time lag we see not necessarily a bullet speed.

However, if it is proven that drop exists, it would be an unneccesary strain on the game engine to calculate the distance and the drops for each weapon.

This is incredibly easy to do with a physics engine. All you do is give the bullet an initial velocity and let the engine do the rest of the work.

[jdrou]

Re: The presence of gravity... now a question.

I don't see what could possibly cause "bullet rise." The only thing I could think that would possibly cause it would be lift and the same effect that causes a baseball curve ball to curve. Lift cannot be created because the bullet is spinning along the axis in which it is fired and any foil that creats would cancel itself out. Futhermore, having a bullet with a foil in it is a very bad design because it would cause it to "wobble." I can't see the "curve ball" working either because that would require an axis of spin perpendicular to the axis it was fired in.

There is "bullet rise" in the real world at least because rifle sights are not normally parallel to the barrel but set so that the projectile first rises above the line of sight then falls back through it probably at whatever point is considered the "usual combat distance". That way you shouldn't need to adjust for bullet drop most of the time.

[evilzucchini]

Re: The presence of gravity... now a question.

jdrou,

Thanks for the explanation.

[imported_Wasp]

Re: The presence of gravity... now a question.

My friend the 3D programmer has actually coded his own working 3D engine and yes I fully understood what he said. I also have total confidence in what he says because he has been doing this for 15 years. Most games use a distance vector representing bullets and this vector goes on until something stops it. In a straight line!!!

If you played a game with a view distance of say 1500 meters it would actually make some sense to have more advanced calculations. The solution to the issue of hitting your target with every bullet (if you have your crosshair on it) in BF2 is the same as it was in BF1942: A random bullet spread. Not very sophisticated but it keeps your accuracy down. The fact that you get a hit on a target below your reticle or crosshair only shows the deviation at work. IRL this weapon wouldn't have a deviation to speak of in 300-400 meters. I have read about this weapon and it's competition use and real shooters have been able to place 5 shots within a tiiny deviation on 1000 meters.

[evilzucchini]

Re: The presence of gravity... now a question.

Wasp,

Again, Wasp, your friend might be an excellent 3D programmer. However, as I said, this is not just a 3D problem. It is a 3d PHYSICS engine problem which is much more complicated than a 3D model. His 3D model games may not have anything to do with physics what-so-ever so bullet rays make perfect sense. However, in a physics engine, there would be no reason to NOT do it. In fact, not doing it could cause problems because then you have to deal with objects that are effected by gravity and objects that are not effected by gravity colliding. Considering that you readily admit that they do it for LAVs and noob tubes, I find it odd that you find it so incomprehendible that they do it for all weapons.

The fact that you get a hit on a target below your reticle or crosshair only shows the deviation at work.

No, it does not "only" show that at all. Sure, that is a possible explanation. However, if it does it every time then it can no longer be attributed to deviation because deviation would be in every direction. So it COULD also be showing bullet drop.

If you watch the first video that he gave us, both shots are taken from the same distance and both shots are aimed at the same height above the target. Both hit. For this to be coincidence would be very incredible and, if he just set it up to trick us all, it would have taken him god knows how many shots to get the deviation in the same direction and the same amount. I am not saying the latter is impossible, just entirely improbable.

[imported_Wasp]

Re: The presence of gravity... now a question.

Physics are only attributed to objects that really need it to appear natural (vehicles, players and various other objects). Physics has a natural part in any 3D engine and my friend use it alot. The reason it's only used where needed is like I said before it can kill FPS on a regular home PC.

It's a slight difference in speed (LOL) between a rocket fired from a LAV and a projectile from a Barret. If the Barret has a consistent hit under the cross of the scope (above 50%) then either it's a flaw in the distance vector or they have added some crude ballistic path with the vector lines. It's apparently possible but not much used.

Distance vectors is widely used (all the Quake games, DOOM3 and Unreal Games) and adding physics to every single bullet in a game like BF2 would kill any computer.

[Why?!]

EDIT: In post number 54, I eat my own words. However, 1 and 3 still stand true, disregard point number 2.

PLEASE READ THIS.
This is the Final Answer to Everything

I have been coding for the Battlefield series ever since the Battlefield 1942 demo. The engine has remained the same ever since Battlefield 1942. There have only been additions and re-organisations of code. For example, everything is now in .tweak files instead of 5 separate .con files.

1. There IS bullet travel time.

Bullet travel time has been in place for all weapons ever since Battlefield 1942. Contrary to popular belief, this is coded into the game. Each bullet has it's own set speed. Some go faster than others. People however are right that latency is an issue. Depending on your latency, you may have to lead more than usual, but there is always bullet travel time no matter what

2. There is NO bullet drop.
EDIT: Read post number 54.

There is a physics engine, but it only affects what it is told to, and in what way. For example, the tank shells are effected by gravity only because they are told to. All bullets however, are coded so that gravity does not affect them. They have the modifier "gravitymodifier" set to 0 which means they are immune to gravity.

3. Bullets always fly straight.

While this is a minor point, I figured I may as well correct this while I am at it. Deviation means that the bullet will come out of the barrel in different position from the barrel. I agree that this is a silly way to simulate bullet deviation, but that is how it is done and you cannot change it.

I realize that this is a little hard to understand but let me put it in a simple, exagherated form that you can see.



I am terribly sorry for having to resort to large fonts and many bolded letters, but I have never seen such widespread ignorance.

[[TBH]Amtrak]

Re: The presence of gravity... now a question.

[QUOTE=Wasp]Take an AK101 and fire a few rounds on a wall about 20 meters in front of you. Look at how each bullet deviates from the one before it. What you see is only decals representing a hit (ultimately it's the server who decides) but it proves my point. Now put this logic into the sniper rifle (the deviation is smaller but it's still there). ...

I understand there is deviation, its slight on the sniper rifles. I was just pointing out that the bullet drop that is presenting itself is NOT the deviation that most people are claiming. Even if it does drop at 500m, it can still deviate left or right or wherever ever so slightly, which would magnify more the further the distance is.

[[TBH]Amtrak]

Re: The presence of gravity... now a question.

Amtrak,



Do you have an explanation for this? I don't see what could possibly cause "bullet rise." The only thing I could think that would possibly cause it would be lift and the same effect that causes a baseball curve ball to curve. Lift cannot be created because the bullet is spinning along the axis in which it is fired and any foil that creats would cancel itself out. Futhermore, having a bullet with a foil in it is a very bad design because it would cause it to "wobble." I can't see the "curve ball" working either because that would require an axis of spin perpendicular to the axis it was fired in.

Exactly what the poster said below. Rise is more of a term, its something that I train my troops with when we are at the range. Short range targets, I tell them to aim a few inches lower, they get more rounds on target. Here's a link for you to read if you want a better explaination

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bullet_trajectory.htm

[[TBH]Amtrak]

Re: The presence of gravity... now a question.

[SIZE="5"]

I am terribly sorry for having to resort to large fonts and many bolded letters, but I have never seen such widespread ignorance.

Yet... at 500m, I cannot hit a target when the reticle is on target. I move the reticle above the target to the 500m mark, and I hit it nearly every time... explain?

[Fibbis]

Re: The presence of gravity... now a question.

Why?! is right, there is bullet travel time just play singleplayer and snipe long range targets and you'll see you have to lead to hit them. And there is no bullet drop, that is just a silly rumor.