Proposed Changelog for POE2

[donpost]

Re: Proposed Changelog for POE2

I've said this before in another thread, but I completely agree with your point of view Heavy.

I see the artillery as the number one on the field of battle. When that big boy shows up, the enemy must find and kill it ASAP.

I was in a game yesterday on Dnipro Sunrise (I think that was the name of the map, it's the snowy one focused on that bridge in the middle.) Anyway, we (the Germans) had the Ukrainians pinned back to their uncappable. The Ukrainian commander decided to get into the artillery and shell one of the German forward bases to give his team a chance. He was causing some real damage, and I was killed by him once or twice.

Fortunatly we had an excellent commander on our team, who immediatly identified the enemy artillery piece as the number 1 target. Using the commander view, he spotted out the arty on the map, and ordered our tiger to go take him out, which he did.

This example shows, I feel, the great thing about arty as it is now. It can be insanely powerful, but it can be counteracted in a variety of ways. In this example, the commander directed air assets onto the arty to destroy it, other methods could have been using counter-artillery, or sending out a small 2 man AT squad to get it (this occured later on in the round, me and another dude snuck round the back of the arty and neutralised it easily).

I realise this wasn't the way the POE team intended the arty to work, but I do hope that if they are going to change it, they take on board some of the alternatives to "nerfing" that Heavy has outlined above.

[troybob]

Re: Proposed Changelog for POE2

for the love of god please give us flybys in the heli's and jets.

[ozzie(awg)]

Re: Proposed Changelog for POE2

Yeah Heavy is our ARTY guy you want it dropped he does it very good when i'm spotting for him of course.

[Rambo]

Re: Proposed Changelog for POE2

i think arty should not be used by the comander it should be for everyone to use


is taunts possable to add to bf2 thats all i want

cant wait for next patch i wuv POE

[D_FAST]

Re: Proposed Changelog for POE2

Good call on preventing the Commander from using the arti. Now people will actually have to spot for arti vs using it as a long range spwan camp weapon.

Couldnt of said it myself.

[Heavy552 AWG]

Re: Proposed Changelog for POE2

The new changelog reinforces my fear that artillery will be forsaken in POE.

It will only encourage people to use it as just another tank, base-raping or base-spamming in hopes of a few kills instead of sitting about bored and sleepy from lack of fire support requested target spots.

Dont anyone on the POE team even listen or understand how to work the artillery?

From the changes in the logs I see that no one has decided how to actually aim the artillery. Just the driver seat and the commander was fixed. But the orginal situation central to the artillery's effectiveness has not yet been addressed.

[BigSteve(AWG)]

Re: Proposed Changelog for POE2

Gotta agree with my teamate Heavy He's right on about the arty. You have to experiance Heavy dropping the rounds on a base and as the last round stops we rush in to clean up anything he misses and take the base

Or being on the otherside and planting C-4 on his cannon and hearing him scream on comms! :laugh: . I'd rather be on his side with the arty in my favor than fighting him.

A good team wil be able to counter any attack placed against them unfortunatly not many people join an in game squad to do just that. Should those that do join up in the ingame squads be punished because we play as a team?

[jilted]

Re: Proposed Changelog for POE2

We tested the artillery for weeks and weeks to be sure it worked fine and all liked the end result. Then we released the mod to the public and found they were using it in a way that we didnt design. So now we are changing it back.

I understand this isnt exactly how 'real' artillery is used. But it is how we designed it to be used. Believe me, it is quite effective asis.

[Him]

Re: Proposed Changelog for POE2

Why is the civilian scooter labelled as a helicopter? :P

[Rambo]

Re: Proposed Changelog for POE2

real arty is for static objects not tanks or pounding front lines and must be zero in to the target ,it goes up to 16 miles i think thats 1970 standards
as arty is now airstrikes

No place in bf2 for that as there is no front lines persay or buildings to destroy

[Heavy552 AWG]

Re: Proposed Changelog for POE2

real arty is for static objects not tanks or pounding front lines and must be zero in to the target ,it goes up to 16 miles i think thats 1970 standards
as arty is now airstrikes

No place in bf2 for that as there is no front lines persay or buildings to destroy

Artillery is dynamic.

There is a road intersection in France called "Dead Man's Corner." There scouts caught a major German troop movement including armor and called in Division Level Artillery... something like Dozens of guns. After a period of time known there-after as the "Artilleryman's Dream" wreckage and death is forever on that corner.

Yes there are static targets. But Artillery is full of Dymanic engagements as well. For example you have today's M109's in real life able to penetrate enemy lines and engage targets of oppertunity within 60 seconds by themselves with no support and getting back out when the target is finished. That is called "Artillery Raid" You can do the same thing against an enemy default in POE by going past the enemy front and within a range that allows for effective coverage of the target area.

Im glad to hear that the Artillery is tested for weeks and weeks during the development of POE... but dont you think for a second that the people found a better, more effective and easier way to use artillery after the POE was released?? Especially in the light of unexpected behaviors such as failure to spot adequate targets by teammates and failure of the opposing team to recognize the threat posed by artillery and using any number of means to go into harms way to destroy the arty.

Yet we easily recognize the noob factor and fix that with a few keystrokes so they cannot drive off or perhaps nerfting the commander even farther... the one who traditionally controls the artillery and understands the battle far better than the average ground pounder or pilot who is narrow minded about his or her little slice of the world.

Regarding armor. I had a set of three enemy armor pounding a base on the Oblivion Map called the "Bridge" the entire team was dying very rapidly while the spots rolled in fast and constant. Finally the sheer noise of "ENEMY ARMOR SPOTTED" repeated many times entered my brain and I went looking.

I found the three tanks and opened fire from 500 yards. The first two shells were near but over. The third shell destroyed two of the tanks side by side while the third tank sensing the danger rolled straight backwards for 100 yards. He eventually died too but the enemy was destroyed before they can really continue to rack up an impressive score and stats killing over and over. The artillery has spoken and the battle was ours.

Those tanks were destroyed because teammates got on the game Q Commrose and screamed ARMOR OVER HERE! ARMOR OVER HERE! help! need backup! we are dying here! omg! ETC... Lo and behold, there they were 100 yards from the edge of the base whoring points and good kills feasting on the plentiful harvest laid out on the table before them gorging themselves like vultures feeding off points and self-absorbed in the greed for more killing.

Well the artillery took care of that.

If for example 6 months from now after the update that removes the commander and weighs the artillery system down with a cumbersome spotting/radio system that does NOT WORK. those same tanks will be joined by teammates in helicopters and anti tankers backed by aircraft killing and killing and killing all day.. or 30 minutes whatever comes first.

They would laugh and cheer as the ineffective and nerfted arty makes eyecandy 300 yards away in the empty field.

I recall back in my JO Mortor man days to even open fire is to make alot of noise and attract the attention of up to 75 players on the entire enemy team. Of that number perhaps 20 will make it thier personal mission to get into "MY" base and knife me. Of course I had a weapon, claymores etc to defend myself with, perhaps a few teammates as well to help out. But the most distilled essence of artillery in the most simple form of a Mortor that is hurting thier offensive attack makes me the NUMBER ONE target on the whole server. Not the sniper, not the armor whore not the commander or any one.

Very few people can accept and success under such dangerous work. But this is not about me. This is about a system that works within limits and is easy for everyone to use.

Remove the commander. Fine. Nerf the noob from driving off fine. Maintain the sancity and purity of what POE designed with the spotting and radio system.. fine. Let people drive down into battle killing enemy tanks with one shot at 50 yards and surviving long enough to wipe out 4 enemy tanks and up to 8 people with them... that is fine. Let someone drive off and sit near a crowded enemy airport and base and rape from a hundred yards away... fine.

When the people complain that the artillery is too powerful and must be nerfted, they share the blame because the game is FULL of creative ways to destroy that one arty. The best way to do it is counter-battery fire. The hardest way is to get a infantry man to stick several C4 and BOOM.

I think even more problematic is to patch people into changing gameplay or methods that happen to be discovered to actually work. This is what is happening as we discuss this change log. I believe by maintaining the artillery as close to real life as it stands today will preserve and teach gamers the power and the glory of it. But also the ease of which it can be hunted down and destroyed if they are NOT SUPPORTED by teammates.

Who needs red team to destroy blue artillery if the developers fat finger it into a cumbersome mess of code and poor utility and waste. It will rot in default for as long as the game is played as a monument to nerfting. And when it is driven out of the gate into battle, it will be easily destroyed because it attracted attention firing off a few pathetic rounds that misses by a mile and demonstrates a noob's desire to kill someone in the game. The noob will never even survive long enough to get that second or third round onto the target area.

That is a waste.

I recognize there are many people who will prefer artillery to be nerfted or cut down to the point of being a waste. These are the ones that dont understand the true role Artillery plays in our current modern day combat arms. You have:

Infantry
Armor
Artillery

That is a combat team making up a powerful ground force.

To ignore or otherwise "Pillowify" the arty into some kind of fantasy of what it is NOT in real life is to destroy the essence and experience of artillery itself.

Ive seen too many games fail to replicate artillery properly. They take great pains to replicate machine guns, smoke grenades, flash bangs and tanks, LAV's etc etc etc..... but leave out arty. No. I say no more.

The artillery will exist in whatever form the POE folks decide to make it. But understand this:

Whatever produces kills and destroys the enemy will be the WAY the artillery is USED by the gamer. If it means driving around killing enemy armor at 50 yards fine.

BUT it is NOT true artillery. THAT is what I am trying to protect here within reasonable limits of our present gaming ability and technology today.

The true way of the arty is to package, ship and deliver death and destruction from miles away rapidly and effectively enemy targets threatening our troops. If the gamer cannot handle or accept effective artillery then we are all wasting our time with that weapons system.

[D_FAST]

Re: Proposed Changelog for POE2

We understand, that all the people out there that learned to master the commandor cam "Exploit" and Exploit is the key word here, wont be happy with our changes.
[sarcasim]
We are forever sorry you can longer magicly zoom into a CP, and shell everything and anything in the base,going 1xx-x in a rnd.
Pissing pretty much everyone off on the recieivng end of this "Exploit" to a point where they stop playing. GG for you! [/Sarcasim]

[troybob]

Re: Proposed Changelog for POE2

i still don't understand heavy's argument.

arty will be JUST as effective without the commander exploit. No if's, and's, or but's.

It's not like they are altering the arty object itself, just preventing you from firing while zoomed into commander.

Hell, if heavy still wants to do it he probably can. Just fire and hit caps lock real quick.

As far as I can tell - Heavy is arguing how valuable arty is - and I can't see how the PoE team is making it any less valuable.

Now you just have to use it like they do in the military - with an FO.

From what I can tell - Heavy's arty argument is flawed because it is NOT being nerfed in then normal definition of nerfed. THey're not touchin arty - they're touchin commander mode.

[donpost]

Re: Proposed Changelog for POE2

We understand, that all the people out there that learned to master the commandor cam "Exploit" and Exploit is the key word here, wont be happy with our changes.
[sarcasim]
We are forever sorry you can longer magicly zoom into a CP, and shell everything and anything in the base,going 1xx-x in a rnd.
Pissing pretty much everyone off on the recieivng end of this "Exploit" to a point where they stop playing. GG for you! [/Sarcasim]

Jesus dude, the guy is trying to help you make your mod better, and you respond like that? I firmly believe (although i sincerely hope I am wrong), that if this change to arty is implemented the mobile arty will be left rotting in the uncappable, rendered useless, or used like a tank, engaging other tanks close up. The difference in how you want arty to behave in game, and what is actually happening, is that you expect people to spot for artillery. This is just not happening. No spotting, coupled with the changes you plan on implementing, will mean the arty user will have no way of shooting beyond visual range. This will reduce the use of the arty to the role of basically, a really powerful tank with little armour or maneovorability (sp?). Is that how you intended arty to work?

If you are resigned to making this change, is there a chance of compromise? One alternative I come up with is to give the commander the ability to place arty spots on the map. Give it a recharge time like supply drops, and then you have a mechanism that keeps the effectiveness of the arty as it is now, but demands still a reasonable amount of teamwork. I can't imagine there being a shortage of spots if the commander had this ability.

[troybob]

Re: Proposed Changelog for POE2

dudes - people will spot more as they learn how to - just give it time.

Also - PoE should allow the passengers of UAZ's and such spot arty but right clicking (a la DC_F)

In addition - you should take out the radio. Just leave the binocs. Why have 2 steps for something that every BF42 vet is used to just one?

The arty won't be useless. The cup is not half empty. There are no black helicoptors. You will find spotters. All will be well. Sheiks and Popes will hug.