PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

[Sn0wbl1nd]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

Uhm, no, thats not what I said at all. I've not mentioned anything other then using my medic bag tosser macro to simplify the process. Instead of three keys, I use one. It's no faster though it is more accurate (as mentioned).

BTW, whoever mentioned missing the medic bag and hitting the shock paddles instead... I'd suggest you NOT use the mouse wheel and use the number keys instead. Much less chance of missing.

In response to your ramblings above.... make me!

*Little update here. After a couple of negative replies to me using a single key to toss a medic bag, I decided to try it with three keystrokes.

I mapped the 5 (medic bag), the left mouse click (toss bag) and the 3 (primary weapon) to my Nostromo. I discovered that I could actually toss bags FASTER using three key presses then I could with my one key macro!

This prompted me to revisit my one key macro, where I adjusted the delays between keypresses and the delays between key down and up. Now I'm tossing bags with a single keystroke even faster then before!!

Thanks guys

i suggest u read disfugured post #105 as far as my ramblings ur right i cant make u do anything this is the internet. but if u were sitting next to me in a lan center i might take the time to take ur computer and toss it out the door and tell u to get legit ::evil:

[Harmor]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

Sniffles!

A macro is a macro DosX. It doesn't matter if you use a macro to switch to a bag, toss it out and switch back to your primary or a Volx style complicated evasive movement exploitation macro. Both are macros that automate functions that every other player has to do normally.

When us legitimate players want to throw out a bag for example we reach up and hit the key that readies the bag, we click the fire button to throw the kit and then we hit the key that returns us to primary weapon. So let's say I want health... I go for my medic bag key... oops I accidentally hit shock paddles instead and now I'm standing with the wrong item out and I don't get the health I need and I die, or I switch to my knife instead of my rifle and get gunned down defenseless as a result. Sometimes I'm slow pulling out and throwing the bag while a macro has millisecond perfect timing and never fails.

I'm human and I make mistakes while a macro does not. We can go on and on but fact is part of being a good infantry player (medic especially) is handling your inventory and handling it in a fact and efficient manner. If switching to a bag, throwing it out and switching back to your weapon is so hard why did you feel compelled to spend the time making macro for it in the first place? Only logical reason would be to gain an edge (however slight) over your opponents. It seems like only a minor advantage and it most certainly is but again a macro is a macro and DICE has a clear zero tolerance policy against cheating and that includes macroing.

I'm not asking for all macros to be banned on sight without warning and I'd be perfectly happy with punkbuster giving you an annoying yet otherwise harmless kick out of the game server you're playing on.

Planewhore, you seem like a reasonable person here. I think what you want for any person to gain an unfair advantages using 3rd party software to augment their abilities? If so, then why doesn't EA/DICE place hard-coded delays at the server? This way not only will the macro uses be twarted, but also the hackers that are actually modifying memory/game files will as well.

If the server, for example, only acknowledged 3-4 mouse clicks a second, the extra 20 that were sent would be ignored. If the stranding-crouching-prone actions had hard delays at the server end would there still a need for prone spamming macros, especially if the delays were long enough that a human could do it faster?

See, the solution here is not to ban Autohotkey, and potentially every third party program that springs up, but to do these changes at the server-end.

You got to remember, anyone can compile their own program, with their own unique signature and call DirectInput or OS human interface functions to emulate mouse/keyboard/joystick movements - will Punkbuster ban those programs as well?

To me, EA/DICE are doing lazy programming for a program over a year old now. Instead of fixing the problem at the server-end as described above they have Punkbuster killing the messenger while the war rages on.


As I mentioned earlier, any 3rd year Network programmer can create timers and only accept certain types of packets from the client...if anything this may reduce lag!

[DosX]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

i suggest u read disfugured post #105 as far as my ramblings ur right i cant make u do anything this is the internet. but if u were sitting next to me in a lan center i might take the time to take ur computer and toss it out the door and tell u to get legit ::evil:

Oh and it would be completely justified. In a tournament or competition setting, it would be just like that video.

And don't get me wrong here. I'm not the "voice of the macro'ers". I use an external keypad (Nostromo) because it's more comfortable for my wrist, and I'm able to play BF2 much more. I'm NOT a AutoMacroKey dolphin diving, C4 tossing, tank turret spinning, prone spamming macro kiddie. When I got the Nostromo I played with single keystrokes mapped to it and found it much more comfortable then the keyboard. Then over time, I played with the macro software and made my (now famous) Medic Bag Tosser.

Since then I've played with the Controls.con file and made some changes that should have been implemented in the first place. Like keystrokes for "SPOTTED" and such. I also mapped those to the Nostromo, but since they are single keystrokes, they are not macros at all.

So, I'm not advocating using my Nostromo for anything other then what could be accomplished through normal gameplay on a normal keyboard. The only difference being that I do it with one keystroke instead of three. And, until recently, I was doing it much slower then other people

A couple points to note: This witch hunt for macro'ers is very recent. If you search for Nostromo on these forums you'll find 113 posts. There's even a sticky post on THIS VERY FORUM about the G15 LCD display program (third party) which requires the macro program to be loaded to display. There's G15, Nostromo, Razor, Mice, Joysticks that all have macro capabilities. Will they take them away?

I completely understand the frustration with these script kiddies, and I don't like them as well. I just hate being cast in with them because of my little medic bag tosser. C'mon, am I really as bad as someone with a fast click single shot with no recoil? He's in it for points and to stay alive. I'm in it to help my team by tossing medic bags. I could care less about the points.
Helping others and hearing "Hey, thanks" is my reward

[delemorte]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

Planewhore, you seem like a reasonable person here. I think what you want for any person to gain an unfair advantages using 3rd party software to augment their abilities? If so, then why doesn't EA/DICE place hard-coded delays at the server? This way not only will the macro uses be twarted, but also the hackers that are actually modifying memory/game files will as well.

See, the solution here is not to ban Autohotkey, and potentially every third party program that springs up, but to do these changes at the server-end.

this logic does not make sense to me. I can use the exact same logic if i install hacks that either one i have purchased two downloaded or three written myself as long as EA has not taken the time to prevent my exploit. I just dont get it.

[Harmor]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

That's another thing...is modifying your Controls.con file an unfair advantage? You can implement macro-like effects by recombinging or reconfiguring your mouse/keyboard/joystick within the Controls.con file?

Why doesn't Punkbuster check that file for modification?

this logic does not make sense to me. I can use the exact same logic if i install hacks that either one i have purchased two downloaded or three written myself as long as EA has not taken the time to prevent my exploit. I just dont get it.

The logic is that even if you are a macro user or a hacker, if the server won't respond to you standing-crouching-going prone 5x a second, then we're all on an even playing field. You see?

[imported_Squared]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

Why the sudden interest in JoyToKey, n52's etc? most of these have been around for years and I've never seen these discussed with such venom as they have been in the last week or so. Yes, there has been the discussions about macro spammers but not at the same level of intensity. My personal opinion is that macro's are bad form and should be avioded, but they are no where near the top of my list of things wrong with BF2 to get passionate about.

I'll state the obvious that the timing is due to the AutoHotKey PB banning, at first I was a little unsure as to exactly why they did this, but a with only a little looking around I'm pretty certain that it was banned for more than just it's ability to automate keystrokes, the issue was a lot more sinister than that. Planewhore knows what I'm talking about.

So it's fairly easy to see why this discussion is going on right now, but I'm more interested as to why. As I've mentioned, macros and the tools that have been mentioned have been around long before BF2, but I don't remember ever seeing them brough up as issue's in the NFv of BF1942 days, and if they were they never generated the level of discussion that is going here. I have a theory as to why this is, and I know some of you will not like it, but I'm pretty confident it is the root cause of the backlash, so here it is.

The reason why people are being so much more passionate about what is acceptable and what is not, is the stats system! In the earlier versions of BF all it took to be able to get away from playing styles that you disliked or though was not fair play was to find a server that was admined by like-minded individuals, if someone came onto the server and played in a way that you disliked, a quick kick/ban later and they were forgotten. Nowadays it seems that people are worried about what others are doing and how they are playing in all servers and at all times. They want to ensure that everyone everywhere is playing to the same rule book, and will call for sanctions even if they've never met nor are likely to meet that person in a server.

I'll sum up my feelings like this, what other reason is there that can cause people to suddenly get so passoinate over something that has been around for a long time? If there is another obvious reason I've missed as to why this has only recently become an issue then plase I stand to be corrected and have an open mind on this issue.

[W_Parmenter]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

this logic does not make sense to me. I can use the exact same logic if i install hacks that either one i have purchased two downloaded or three written myself as long as EA has not taken the time to prevent my exploit. I just dont get it.

The difference is that nostromo and J2K have legitimate uses. If EA/DICE would do their job the illegitimate uses would be eliminated without denying people access to the legit ones.

[Sn0wbl1nd]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

. Helping others and hearing "Hey, thanks" is my reward

if helping others meant u didnt use a macro to help them then it would be fine DosX but ur using a exploit to do so and if u told all those ppl that its my macro thats helping them out and not ur quick fingers then they wouldnt b thanking u they would curse ur hax.

dont get me wrong here i DosX i dont hate the ppl that play this game with a greater good in mind (teamwork mostly) but in the ROE its states

3.1 Use of Cheats or Hacks

3.1.1 Players may not change (hack) any core games files or effectively change game settings by employing external programs or cheats for the purposes of giving themselves an unfair advantage over other players. This would include but not limited to:

(a) *** and other 3rd party software.

(b) Modification of weapons code, aka Tank turrets exploit.

(c) CVAR hacks which would make players appear Neon

(d) CVAR hacks that let players see thru walls or buildings

(e) Mini-Map hack so all players are visible

(f) Modification of Player Names which would alter their size or colors.



if u dont think ur in violation of these rules then u will continue to use ur keyboard to do ur work for u and yes u will help others in ur valent effort to help heal the team but ur using a exploit to do so. now ask urself is that right ?

I'll sum up my feelings like this, what other reason is there that can cause people to suddenly get so passoinate over something that has been around for a long time? If there is another obvious reason I've missed as to why this has only recently become an issue then plase I stand to be corrected and have an open mind on this issue.

one of the biggest reasons is competitive play in leagues. this is where most of this will stem from cause when there is a prize on the line (braggin rights or $$) ppl will do any and everything to win. it is sad but very true and if ther is no way to police it then ppl are gonna use it.

if this were legal and ppl were informed of this to begin with and everyone used them it wouldnt b a issue at all, we all would b buyin new keyboards and using 3rd party software to create uber macros that help us play. but sence this is not the way EA/DICE wanted us to play this game this need serious attention. HELP US EA/DICE/PB UR OUR ONLY HOPE ya right

[DosX]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

for the purposes of giving themselves an unfair advantage over other players.

if u dont think ur in violation of these rules then u will continue to use ur keyboard to do ur work for u and yes u will help others in ur valent effort to help heal the team but ur using a exploit to do so. now ask urself is that right ?

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see my Medic Bag Tosser as giving me any "unfair advantage over other players". Actually, I used to be rather slow at tossing bags, more so then other players. My macro *was* giving me an unfair DIS-advantage over other players LOL.

I understand your point. I highly doubt you'll ever understand mine.

You take the "speeding is illegal, whether it's one mph over or 50 mph over it's still speeding and illegal" point of view.

Truth is the world isn't that way. The fine for one mph over is certainly not the same as 50 mph over, correct? (*IS* there a fine for one mph over the speed limit?) Should they suffer the same consequences?

Regardless, if I ever see ya in game, and your hurting... you can count hearing "You're good to go, get back to the fight" from me

[Sn0wbl1nd]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see my Medic Bag Tosser as giving me any "unfair advantage over other players". Actually, I used to be rather slow at tossing bags, more so then other players. My macro *was* giving me an unfair DIS-advantage over other players LOL.

I understand your point. I highly doubt you'll ever understand mine.

You take the "speeding is illegal, whether it's one mph over or 50 mph over it's still speeding and illegal" point of view.

Truth is the world isn't that way. The fine for one mph over is certainly not the same as 50 mph over, correct? (*IS* there a fine for one mph over the speed limit?) Should they suffer the same consequences?

Regardless, if I ever see ya in game, and your hurting... you can count hearing "You're good to go, get back to the fight" from me

just cause u get away with does it does that make it legal?? speeding, hackin, exploiting, w/e lol u choose

and yes i do see ur point. having ppl in game that play with everyone else in mind is hard to find and is greatly appreciated but as i said b4 exploiting to get it done is the issue.

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

Please don't make me out to be a whiner. Changing games isn't that big a deal to me. I prefer BF2 because there's no blood or gibs. My son is allowed to play it based on that fact. He will continue to play BF2 regardless of the status of Nostromo kicks. I, on the other hand (off color joke here), will be forced to switch games because I won't be able to play using the keyboard (because of the carpal, get the joke now? other hand? heh).

simplify a process? Doesn't an aimbot simplify the process of aiming? Your motives are irrelevant and the only thing that really matters is it (and all other macros) give you a clear advantage over players who don't use them. Don't try and spin it any other way DosX.

Furthermore...

I think you're confusing disallowing the macroing functions with disallowing the device entirely. My joystick for example has profiler software to tweak certain aspects but frankly I don't need or use it and the device works just fine without the software. Unless Nostromo absolutely needs the macroing software to function correctly on a basic level (and I highly doubt that) I don't see the problem with losing the macroing function other than you disliking the prospect of losing your "simplified" gameplay (as you put it).

[DosX]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

just cause u get away with does it does that make it legal?? speeding, hackin, exploiting, w/e lol u choose

Well, ya missed the point again. I'm not saying I get away with it. I'm asking if the penalty should be the same?

If I'm ever caught by PunkBuster for using my Nostromo software, then I'll accept whatever punishment befalls me. Kick or Ban it'll probably mean the end of my playing BF2 either way. I won't go back to using a keyboard for movement. I accept that.

What gets me is that I'm cast into the same catagory as "hackin, exploiting". I neither hack nor exploit. I toss bags with one key press instead of three. I can even change it to three and STILL be punished!! Just for running the software that makes it possible to do macros, even though I would have NONE.

Brings up an interesting point. If I'm using my Nostromo WITHOUT ANY MACRO's AT ALL, can I still be kicked/banned? I still need the software running so my WASD keys can be mapped to the Nostromo, but I'm not gaining an "unfair advantage" anymore am I? Does the fact that the Nostromo is more ergonomic give me an "unfair advantage"?

I wonder how PunkBuster will determine if I'm running macros or just using my Nostomo for single key clicks? I'm guessing they can't, so they won't take any action at all against all these hardware devices which have macro capable software associated with them. Again - back to my fake letter from PunkBuster.

*OH and if anything thinks we're "taking over" this thread please reply saying so. I'd gladly take this discussion to private if it's bothering other forum users.

*EDIT:

Unless Nostromo absolutely needs the macroing software to function correctly on a basic level (and I highly doubt that)

Sorry PlaneWhore, I posted same time as you.

Yes - the same software is used with the Nostromo to map keys to the device. There's two sections, the first can do single keypresses. The second is the macro recording section. Unfortunately it's the same software, so I'm guilty of running third party software if I use my macro or not

And I see your a one mph guy too....

[DarkPepe]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

simplify a process? Doesn't an aimbot simplify the process of aiming? Your motives are irrelevant and the only thing that really matters is it (and all other macros) give you a clear advantage over players who don't use them. Don't try and spin it any other way DosX.

Furthermore...

I think you're confusing disallowing the macroing functions with disallowing the device entirely. My joystick for example has profiler software to tweak certain aspects but frankly I don't need or use it and the device works just fine without the software. Unless Nostromo absolutely needs the macroing software to function correctly on a basic level (and I highly doubt that) I don't see the problem with losing the macroing function other than you disliking the prospect of losing your "simplified" gameplay (as you put it).

AMEN PAL!

[Sn0wbl1nd]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

i dont think were takin over the thread, i believe this is what it was intended for (allthough i could b wrong :) )

DosX check it killah

3.1 Use of Cheats or Hacks

3.1.1 Players may not change (hack) any core games files or effectively change game settings by employing external programs or cheats for the purposes of giving themselves an unfair advantage over other players. This would include but not limited to:

(a) *** and other 3rd party software

isnt that what ur using to make this happen, thats not a cheat?

[imported_DANK]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

That is really sad to see people are selfish and short-sighted; some people are really bitter at life so they go about ways getting back at it. Though these people might have good ideas they approach it completely the wrong way.

This argument will go on forever because they are sitting nice and safely behind their computer screens. People will put up very pointless arguments online knowing that they will not suffer real life consequences or have not been taught better when they were or still are adolescent.