PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

[Sloi sauce]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

Would these macros exist in such quantities if there was no stats system? Think about it

I thought about it. Why not?

BF2 has a stats system and a percentage of players use cheats, macros and any possible advantage.

Counter-Strike does not have a stats system (local server stats aren't the same and routinely get reset) and a percentage of players use cheats, macros and any possible advantage.

There is little difference: you're simply using the aforementioned exploit mechanisms to destroy the stats system the same way gun control advocates use anything they can get their hands on to remove firearms from civilian hands.

People cheat and exploit for a good number of reasons, most of which have nothing to do with artificially inflating 'central' stats and everything to do with gaining an unfair advantage over others for something as simple as looking better in the moment or pissing people off.

:)

[mondo66]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

Have to agree with Sloi's comment. Even Ghost Recon had no stat system and it had its share of hackers/glitchers. Some people could care less about playing by the rules.

[Sn0wbl1nd]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

I've ALWAYS maintained that macros, are cheating. Period.

The key words in your post TopGunGreg are, honor & integrity...something that a large majority of people today haven't a clue of the meaning.

AGREED they are cheats !!! whats to say i cant use a macro to solo fly my helo and hit a button start a barrel roll auto switch to tv guided missile, fire scroll my mouse instead of clicking the mouse 5 to 10 times, to the target take out target and then switch back to pilot seat. now im not saying that cant b done by normal means but comon if it only took one key even the most nubbest of pilots could own cause ther is no skill involved so MACROS = BAD and untill something is done ppl are gonna use them cause they cant b caught HOW IS THIS GOING ON FOR SO LONG

fyi i was just made aware of this and now im on board to fing a way to stop this !!!!

[AllFoamNoBeer]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

does that mean that me using the extra button on my G7 mouse for prone instead of the 'z' key a cheat???!!!

[ELI]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

Joy to key is just used to assign a key from the keyboard to a key on the JS right? And that's cheating? C'mon.....you gotta be kidding me. So IF I have a button on the JS that normally say drops my flares and then I also have a macro running that ALLOWS me to use that same button to pull up the map or to switch to mouse view. Now how is that cheating?

Before you flame....I don't use J2K. I just don't see how that could be considered cheating. I mean you can rebind any key on your kb to suit your playing style or needs. Since there is a limited number of button options on a JS there has to be a way to multiply those options rather than switching back and forth from your JS to KB.

[redrider]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

I myself am not sure what the right answer here is. I just wish the people in charge at dice or PB would at least look like they are doing something to fix the problems we are haveing with cheats, glitches and Macros. On a side note I think an adjustment to your set up that moves on key to your mouse is fine but when you have a combination of moves programed into one key thats wrong (people need to spend some time and get some skills).
I had a guy last night run, jump, go prone and shoot in the same combination 3 times but the part that gave his cheat away was the go prone and shoot were all done in the air before he hit the ground.
Yes something needs to be done maybe they could start by checking the stats history of every one who has 60,000 plus points and 300 hours or less. Dont tell me all of them are that skilled. I would bet that group contains a large percentage of cheaters, wouldnt you? . . . . . . . . . .Red

[W_Parmenter]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

Joy to key is just used to assign a key from the keyboard to a key on the JS right? And that's cheating? C'mon.....you gotta be kidding me. So IF I have a button on the JS that normally say drops my flares and then I also have a macro running that ALLOWS me to use that same button to pull up the map or to switch to mouse view. Now how is that cheating?

Before you flame....I don't use J2K. I just don't see how that could be considered cheating. I mean you can rebind any key on your kb to suit your playing style or needs. Since there is a limited number of button options on a JS there has to be a way to multiply those options rather than switching back and forth from your JS to KB.

The argument would be that using third party software to gain an advantage would be cheating and that J2K is third party software and it's giving you an advantage or you wouldn't be using it. Of course as usual ROE is vague and doesn't prohibit using third party software to gain an advantage, it prohibits usng third party software to gain an unfair advantage. So the question is: what constitutes an unfair advantage?

[ELI]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

Exactley. I totally agree that solo tv missle macro and prone spamming are worthless exploits. That is an unfair advantage. The use I'm thinking of doesn't create an unfair advantage IMO.

[lostinspace]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

I think DiCE has done a poor job on their implementation of not beeing able to change the control settings...
Either that, or I don't seem to understand their motives for making it as is...
Well, perhaps they left it like this, to give mouse users a break against joystick users in Jets... balancing... Who knows...

However, joy2key is an excuse 3rd party solution...
We should have been asking DiCE about implementing this in one of their patches as hard as others questioned about macro's, rather than a users now having to visit some forum, search, find and learn to use software like joy2key to include game-functions not originally implemented for joystick to ever be on level ground with joy2key 'expert' jet fighters...

Couse just some guy who bought this game and is flying left and right with his logitech joystick, will be totally in disadvantage by another who looks around, spots, and can guide a tv missile using the same joystick...
All becouse of joy2key...

Following, some quotes from the joy2key sticky here...

http://www.totalbf2.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72603&highlight=joy2key

"
A hard to find 3rd party application which can give all sorts of insane new functionality
...
With JoyToKey, you only have to move the hatswitch for mouse looking..you don't have to hold down any other key or joystick button. You basically achieve the effect that should have originally been included.
That is what makes my method so sweet
...
When you launch the included .bat file, it will launch 2 instances of JoyToKey to your tray with the full setup. I have included the 2 config files I use with my MS Sidewinder Precision 2 to achieve the one-motion mouselook. You can check them out to see how I did it, or you can ask here and I can help. All I had to do was load 2 instances of JoyToKey and set each instance to use one of the 2 configs so that both configs are running simultaneously. It may sound a little confusing, but this is already done for you if you installed my config files.

"

WoW... He must have quite the advantage..!
And with this, you don't even need a creditcard to download...

-

[delemorte]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

Why don't they do what WoW did? Make hard coded delays at the server side? Seems like EA/DICE don't want to do the programming and are taking the easy way out.

What about other programs like JoyToKey? Seems fishy that only Autohotkey is singled out? Some people have suggested its because the G15 people have paid off EA/DICE and the freeware program, Autohotkey, hasn't. I guess you should always follow the money.

To stop prone spamming, make HARD-CODED severside delays. I don't understand why its so difficult to do this.

good point but ive seen your macros and they are awsome so its people like you that are fueling this issue. Just because its possible does not mean its acceptable. Its not up to your goverment to make a law to stop you when you know its not right in the first place.

[Sn0wbl1nd]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

does that mean that me using the extra button on my G7 mouse for prone instead of the 'z' key a cheat???!!!

no cause its just one key binded to do one fuction if u binded ur G7 to pull out a medic pack toss it and auto back to ur main gun thats CHEATING ..... macros in the g15 keyboard do this with out software or anyclient its built into the board also all u really need is a well based knowledge of windows to tell it to do with out any 3rd party software



HOW DID THIS GET PAST DICE/EA GEEZ

The argument would be that using third party software to gain an advantage would be cheating and that J2K is third party software and it's giving you an advantage or you wouldn't be using it. Of course as usual ROE is vague and doesn't prohibit using third party software to gain an advantage, it prohibits usng third party software to gain an unfair advantage. So the question is: what constitutes an unfair advantage?

the bad thing is that u dont need 3rd party software to do this all u need is a good knowledge of windows and or one of the new gaming keyboards to get this done.

[Cardini]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

no cause its just one key binded to do one fuction if u binded ur G7 to pull out a medic pack toss it and auto back to ur main gun thats CHEATING ..... macros in the g15 keyboard do this with out software or anyclient its built into the board also all u really need is a well based knowledge of windows to tell it to do with out any 3rd party software



HOW DID THIS GET PAST DICE/EA GEEZ



the bad thing is that u dont need 3rd party software to do this all u need is a good knowledge of windows and or one of the new gaming keyboards to get this done.

I don't find what you said very clear or easily understood. My g-15 came with software. It's the software that allows the binding of any key on the keyboard to perform more than one keypress or mouse press (aka. macros). The g-15 also comes with extra keys to whcih one can bind single keypresses or macros. The software is NOT built in other than the mode switching that allows the extra keys 15 in all act as 45 keys in all.

Any keyboard, not just new gaming ones, can be programmed to execute a keypress of choice or a sequence of keypresses WITHOUT the use of anything other software than windows.

[Sn0wbl1nd]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

this is y i said this

the bad thing is that u dont need 3rd party software to do this all u need is a good knowledge of windows and or one of the new gaming keyboards to get this done.

and the board makes it easier to do this cause of the design with the quick change keys to set up to 3 sets of 18 usable macros(this is y u would want one of these) thats what i meant when said built into the board sry if ther was some confusion.

wow I MEAN wow

i had found a thread in cal 12v12 open forums about this very thing and asked what was being done about it in the competition aspect of bf2 and i got a reply from a admin stating that CAL|AC is aware of such a problem but cant do anything about it(of course in many more words :p ). after about 25 flames and a few good posts buy some of the community the thread was suddenly just deleted. i guess CAL would like to just sweep this under the carpet and hope it just goes away :shock: . cause as long as this is a problem for legit gamers this should be discused as much as possible to hopefully bring this to a end

[sassback]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

macros remain a HUGE problem that is yet to be solved. much much more so than hacking and statpadding.

[disfigured]

Re: PunkBuster, Key Macros and 1.4

I think it's a "drawing the line" issue.

J2K is a third party program, period. Therefore it falls under the discription in the ROE. Hey, some programer makes a program to automatically command by keying in on requests and certain "globs" of red enemy. You could argue that you'd see those things and make those same moves, so why not that program too? Now you can drive a tank and command because a lot of what you could do is done for you. Although you really can't do it can you? Other wise you wouldn't need the program.

It would never end. It would open the floodgates and set a precedent.

As for the worst pro-marco argument: "it's nothing I can't do anyway". Well then why the third party program then? I'll tell you why. Because it allows you to do the same thing with constant and perfect execution. Something a human cannot do on a consistant basis. It removes human error from the game for people using them. Geez, I wonder if removing human error is an unfair advantage (also in the ROE)? If you don't think it does and you think you can do the same thing just as consistantly, why don't you see who makes a slip up first? You or a marco.

Does it matter right now that macros are used in BF2 on personal level to me? Not really other the the character motions they continually create look totally stupid and take away from my immersion. That I don't like. For me it's a draw the line and future of gaming issue.

As for comparing better hardware and marcos that's just the worst argument. Just look at how many disscussions are started about poorer graphics being an advantage. There's no proof that a lower resolution or a higher one make you any better or worse a player (which ever your argument is, which both sides are still debatable). Unlike a macro which combines events and binds keys together with a third party program, and recreates flawless exectutions of keystrokes ad infinitum.

Same goes for keyboards with preset macros. It's not thirdparty software, it's better hardware? Do the macros work with out installing Logitech's drivers and software for the keyboard? The marcos don't work without the "thirdparty software" that comes along with the keyboard. If they are built in and don't need drivers and software it's still a form of software, just one that is written into a permenent chip. If that is allowed then an entire expansion card with preloaded eproms with cheats on them would "legal" under the same pretenses.

The only advantage I see with a G15 is that it makes life easier for people who press the wrong keys all the time or don't want to press multiple keys to do a certain command when macros can do the samething with one key.

Those are precisely the people who used to get their heads handed to them in every FirstPerson Shooter till macros were used. They are the ones that the players who don't "press the wrong keys", and can "press multiple keys to do certain command(s)" should be killing on a regular basis.

Yes the good players still do kill the people who couldn't play without macros, but yet now use them. But where does that leave the less adept player who doesn't use macro, doesn't seem very fair to the person who struggles with the game and tries his hardest.

Geez, I can't type very fast, but there's a program that coverts speech to typing. Should I apply for a typist job and just say "what difference does it make, I've got this program that works real good".

See the point I'm trying to make? It just amazes me the same as as it does TopGun Greg:

guess I should not be shocked by some of the posters
they think "joy to key" is NOT cheating
they think Nostromo one key to "switch, toss, switch "with one key is not cheating
guess they also think oral sex is not sex
kind of makes one sick at the degradation of our society when people come up with all the justifications why THIER version of standards makes them feel it is ok - to - well - CHEAT !!!!

Keep trying to convince yourself your not cheating. You might just do it. As for convincing anyone else with logic, reason and some ammount of integrity, please just give up now. I'll only screw you into the ground with your own statements anyway. Save yourselves the embarrasement.