Proteus Creator Defends His Game as Actually Being a Game

[Shawn Zipay]

Ed Key, one of the two main developers on Proteus seems to have taken some issue with people who say that his game really isn't a game. Specifically, he calls out an article on Gamasutra that calls Proteus an "anti-game".

"I don’t call Proteus an antigame* or a notgame. I call it a game, but obviously I am at pains to make it clear that it doesn’t have explicit challenge or “winning.”

I’m also absolutely not against game mechanics or traditional schools of design."

He continues on to draw comparisons to games like Dear Esther, which unlike Proteus, actually has an ongoing narrative throughout the entire experience.

"If you are a game designer and you are focusing on a particular formal definition or have a guiding principle to your work, like Sid Meier’s famous motto “A game is a series of interesting decisions” then go ahead. Insisting that your definition is the definition is a foolish obsession."

Key also notes a number of threads from the Steam forums that essentially slam Proteus and try to warn other users to not even bother with the "game".

You're more than welcome to read Key's full blog entry where he tries to justify his stance on what a game is. Oddly enough, I wrapped up a new "A look at..." video earlier tonight for Proteus (I did not want to link this yet, but here it is. The actual article for it will go up next week). It was played, recorded, and uploaded long before I ever saw Key's blog entry or Gamasutra's article. Perhaps the most awkward thing here, is that I agree with most others on this in saying that Proteus isn't really a "game" in the traditional sense.

[Thortok2000]

It's a game, just not the traditional kind of one.

[cikame]

It's a game, it's entertainment.

[jimykx]

What's there not to be a game?!?!? Guns and shooting? Damn, people are spoiled nowadays.

[Shawn Zipay]

It's not a game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game

Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction. Games generally involve mental or physical stimulation, and often both. Many games help develop practical skills, serve as a form of exercise, or otherwise perform an educational, simulational, or psychological role.

I will say that Proteus includes mental stimulation. I will concede that Proteus may perform some psychological and perhaps even simulational role.

But other than that, there are no goals, rules, challenge, or interaction in Proteus. There is no story nor narrative in the game.

At best, it's a simulation. At worst, it's a tech demo for some 8-bit looking Slenderman game.

[Thortok2000]

Goal - To make music.
Rules - Different noises are made when you wander near different things.
Challenge - To make the music you want to make in spite of the random nature of the things you could possibly wander near.
Interaction - You choose which way to wander.

It's a game.

Now is it a very good game? Totally different question. The goal isn't very desirable, the rules aren't very stringent, the challenge isn't very challenging, and the interaction is pretty limited. But it is, in fact, a game.

You can't define a game by story or narrative. Exactly how much story or narrative is there to Pong?

[jimykx]

I just watched your video and I guess this is kind of subjective.
Subjective in the same way some people say a blank canvas with some splashed paint displayed in an art museum isn't really art, where others say the author has putted a very deep meaning in his art form.
Subjective in the same way some people say certain dissonant genres of music aren't music, and others enjoy it a lot.
But I also think you searched for the wrong definition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game

A video game is an electronic game that involves human interaction with a user interface to generate visual feedback on a video device.

In my opinion it is a game simply because it has the aspect that differentiates it from every other type of media/expression. You can interact with it, it responds, and the developer gave a very simple objective to the game it being simply for you to explore and experience whatever the world has for you to experience. Of course this is really related to what everyone expects from a game, I for example, would not pay more than 2€ for that game.

[Thortok2000]

I wouldn't play that game if it was free. =/

[Shawn Zipay]

Goal - To make music.
Rules - Different noises are made when you wander near different things.
Challenge - To make the music you want to make in spite of the random nature of the things you could possibly wander near.
Interaction - You choose which way to wander.

It's a game.

Now is it a very good game? Totally different question. The goal isn't very desirable, the rules aren't very stringent, the challenge isn't very challenging, and the interaction is pretty limited. But it is, in fact, a game.

You can't define a game by story or narrative. Exactly how much story or narrative is there to Pong?

Pong at least has a goal. There are win conditions to Pong, same as in actual sports. That's a poor example.

Also, the "rules" you listed there aren't rules in the sense of a game. What you're describing is more along the lines of cause and effect.

Definition of "rule": One of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct within a particular activity or sphere.

The challenge is also a huge stretch there. To what purpose is it that you are making this "music"? You cannot record it. You cannot save it. There are no points associated with it. The music does not alter the world around you. The music does not alter your character. There is nothing inherently "game like" about it.

But yes, you can interact with it so far as you decide where to walk.

It's a shit "game" but a fantastic attempt at recreating, what I imagine a drug induced coma would be like.

[Thortok2000]

When I think of 'game' in this context, I'm thinking of the games kids will come up with, like cowboys & indians, house, and all those made up 'games' that kids will think up, play once, and then never do (or probably remember) again.

By the literal definition of the word, it is indeed a game.

Even wikipedia says a simulation is a 'game' of sorts on the page you linked.

Nobody's arguing it's a good game, but it is a game.

[K-16]

As a personal opinion, and not aiming for technicality, I find this to be a piece of interactive media, but not a game. Interactive media does not necessarily have to be a game, as for example Unigine's Heaven Benchmark is a piece of interactive media, yet it fulfills many of the requirements that fall under the definition of a game (I can list examples if requested). I feel that the creator thinks "interactive media" would dilute the significance of his work, which shouldn't be the case.

I don't agree that Zips looked for the wrong definition, because a video game is a type of electronic game, which is a type of game in itself. So the original definition of a game still applies to video games (note the video game article themselves link to the two other definitions). However, I will agree with anyone who says my opinionated definition of a game (not Zips' mind you) is too rigid as I don't consider Garry's Mod to be a game; I DO however, see that to be part of interactive media, though I would be surprised and confused if anyone agrees with me on that one.

[Thortok2000]

While I agree that it is basically interactive media, I think that pretty much all interactive media are 'games', so to speak.

In fact, 'interactive media' is my personal definition for 'video game'.

[K-16]

What about the Unigine's Heaven example? What about Microsoft's SmartGlass second screen features? An example would be Spike TV's VGAs support of SmartGlass/Xbox 360's stream (for US audiences only unfortunately). I consider that interactive media as well, but I don't consider those to fall under the definition of video games. YouTube videos with clickable annotations also count as interactive media in my personal definition for the record. Actually, I'm starting to think I am roping Choose Your Own Adventure books into this category as well (interactive print medium). Hmm... Didn't realize that until mid-typing of this post.

But my point is, I find interactive media enhances regular media which CAN (but not necessarily intends to) offer a more entertaining experience without technically being a game, and I think Proteus offers an entertaining auditory and graphical experience, but does not use the majority of the mechanics a game requires (though I would like to point out animal AI exists and it gives cute results).

[Thortok2000]

I'd actually consider Choose Your Own Adventure books to be a game. I'm not familiar with your other examples.

There was a type of book once where you actually wrote down how much gold and stuff you had, and what items you might have, and you couldn't 'choose' an option if you didn't have the right item or amount of money, etc.

You could even keep your character from book to book (assuming you didn't die) and stuff. It was exactly like a CYOA book, except it asked you to keep track of your inventory and stuff. I'd consider that a game. It was really easy to 'cheat' at it, but it was still a game. (Reading/playing it was sort of like a poor-man's D&D with only so many variations possible in the script.)

This is pretty much a definition argument. People are going to have different definitions for the same word. I don't consider 'game' to be a word that requires a strict definition with high standards. "If it doesn't pass this bar, it's not a game." Even video game, there's lots of video games out there that really suck and are 'barely a game' at all. But they're still a game, in my opinion at least.

I think we should all be concerned with what makes a good game rather than what makes a game at all. And clearly, Proteus isn't it.

[K-16]

Hmm... The definition argument you pointed out seems to be the gist of what Mr. Key is trying to say in his blog. Although his argument includes positive reception/testimonials that outweigh the negative feedback, which to him seems like "the number of people who dislike it feels irrelevant." I don't appreciate that kind of perspective, because he may be encouraging himself to ignore negative feedback, which can contain vital constructive feedback without any obscuring sugar coating (politeness from bias). Unlike Mr. Key, you read my post and are willing to keep an open mind that my definition differs from your's, rather than creating a teaching lecture targetting my lack of a flexible definition. I appreciate that.

I do wonder what the longevity of Proteus will be given how the novelty may not last long for the general audience. I think I agree with Zips that this is more for a niche audience, which isn't very financially helpful for independent developers. For me, the novelty wore off pretty much near the end of the review video so I don't think I'll be buying this one.

On a side note, I know exactly what you mean by CYOA books with persistent stats. I've read some of the Nintendo Adventure Books that has the player using rudimentary inventory and score tracking to determine one of three final endings (missing items basically prevented any ending and re-routed you to the mid-point of the story to find the items), although you couldn't keep your character's progression from book to book namely because multiple authors were involved (Mario and Luigi were involved in most of the books anyways so it didn't matter). The books you described were basically how Mass Effect was played before the Xbox 360/PS3 were invented (though I don't recall what books had character transfers between books) right down to the restrictive endings due to the scope of such endeavours. But my main explanation of interactive media was in response to your comment that interactive media is your personal definition for video games rather than just games in general. But I suppose that is moot if I'm also trying to use the game definition perspective to say Proteus is not a video game. Anyways, nice chat.

Reply to post below (added later): A 3D music visualizer? That's an awesome suggestion! I was thinking Rhythm Heaven in the environment of Proteus; basically a game of 3D open-world rhythm challenges where the freaking planet is your DJ deck and mixer. The difference between our suggestions? Your's is realistic given Mr. Key's limited resources as an independent developer. Mine is way too large in scope for corporations to bother doing R&D for.