Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

PW- the hard turn was the most used/ best/ universal evasion maneuver. The evasion you described goes for planes. Your evasion maneuver series is a waste of time. If theres one true 100% working evasion maneuver, why bother to make things complicated? Youll not going to be spotted out either.

[Roger Smith]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

If theres one true 100% working evasion maneuver...

then a2a combat is unskilled

[IVfluids]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

simply put, any dumb*uck that tried to do a maneuver and then apply total opposite input of his controls in the middle of that to change direction, got drilled with a missile up his *ss in the previous patch.

any dip*hit that flew to high with a jet on his *ss, was gonna get tagged with a missile. any moron that flew too low, was going to have locks on him from ground aa but probably shouldnt have gotten tagged too easily if he understood the nuances of the jets turning abilities at different heights.

now, it just doesn't matter where you are in the air. being aware of your situation and understanding how the *hit worked in-game is no longer required, just pop two missiles off and know that it is all good. I fully believed the ground AA needed an overhaul, but applying the same cookie cutter remedy to every missile in the game was very short sighted of them.

btw, turning into it wasn't all that bad, i never once got shot down by doing that because the missiles worked like *hit for head-on shots, just juke the plane a hair as it was coming at you and you'd lose it because it didn't have time to compensate for it.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

then a2a combat gives a chance to the newbies to havea longer life expectancy.

Fix´d

[jakswan]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

That video was all about being an effective and efficient pilot, going for pure impact on the battlefield. Although I did not do much dogfighting in that video, I did do quite a bit of plane killing. Rule number one for me, is take the path of least resistance. As I recall, I shot down the bomber (a critical priority for any pilot in 1.12) right at the beginning of the match and I kept that potentially devastating bomber (in the hands of even a newbie) on the ground for nearly the entire game. The MiG pilot, well, the MiG pilot was simply not very good, and as such another rule for me in 1.12 when actually engaging in a dogfight is that if the enemies currently occupying a plane suck, then let them keep the plane airborne, as it could potentially prevent some one like me from getting the plane after it has respawned, and the only exception I'll make to that rule if they're hindering my effots, then I'll take them out.

If anything, my 1.12 video showed how absolutely vulnerable and frail planes are when the proper tactics, and technique are applied. As I proved in my video when I destroyed the bomber plane at least 8 times that match (twice while it was in the air, with well timed skilled missiles *AND* cannons). That is why I can only let out a laugh and sigh when I hear people refer to all 1.12 pilots as some sort of newbies in an invulnerable vehicle of destruction, as I never once encountered that problem, and neither did any player who was lucky enough to be on my team.

Thanks for bringing up that old video, in any event, because it only strengthens my initial case.

http://files.filefront.com/FILE_VOTE.../fileinfo.html

I strongly recommend everyone watch that video, it rounds off nicely what 1.12 became as pilots learnt to play the system, disgusting.

[WarGimp]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Tsk, Tsk.
I figured. Ya post something with some actual facts in it and people don't want to know them. They'd much rather continue beaking off about BS.

*whatever*

That is exactly what I said in one of the posts which got lost in the useless discussions. The AA is done right now to either hit or not hit all the time.

Yup, I know. It's that post you made before that go me thinking about it. I've got a perty good grasp of conceptual physics, but the math makes my head hurt. Feed it into a 'puter 'n let it deal with the number crunchin. That's what they're for!
Still, I wanted to come up with a way to discribe what's going on to the laymen.

When you open the AA files in the game's folder that is exactly what you will conclude. I think the AA ticking time is now set to something like 50msec. I probably forgot it but need to go back and check that number again. I think they did it that way to reduce the lag. if they make that number smaller then the whole game will become laggy when someone fires a missle. it is the same reason why the tank's shell is very slow. you can see a tank shell moving during the game. in reality those shells are very fast. if they make the speed realistic the game will become very laggy. probably this is one reason why the game is laggy after the patch. They made that ticking time smaller after the patch.

Actually, tank shells could be faster. It's a pure graphics thing. It looks cool when you can see the shell in-flight. Any sort of dumb-projectial could be models to travel at the speed of light without any lag problems. It's the AI on missiles that cause the headaches and why they have to be "ticked".

probably the best thing will be to tweak the AA to a critical point such that turning at full speed with the afterburner will save you. just a thought. this way you may have a chance of survival... although it is a slim chance. But the problem with this idea is that different jets have different maximum speeds. a way to balance that probably can probably be done by making some jets reload the flares faster... just a little faster... like a second or two.

Aye, without going for a full fuzzy logic system, the current missile AI is about the best we can expect. Missile dodging will never be possible without the use of countermeasures.

Still, it's not too bad. We've still got the system of hunter/hunted going on and you CAN dodge the guy trying to aim those missiles by getting him off your six as soon as you drop flares.

[SK]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

it is the same reason why the tank's shell is very slow. you can see a tank shell moving during the game. in reality those shells are very fast. if they make the speed realistic the game will become very laggy.

As Wargimp pointed out the tank shells are slow for looks and gameplay reasons. After all, every infantry gun fires single projectiles travelling through world space and having to do hit detection. There´s no reason why a tank shell´s trajectory and hit detection would be more computationally expensive than a single infantry bullet (apart from the graphical representation, but that´s mainly gfx card work).

[F-1]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

I write those posts for those who are looking for real fruitful discussion. Some people here are a joke. They just look for something to "argue" about (as opposed to "discuss"). While reading a thread I usually skip some of the posts written by some people. (Not for being arrogant, but I try to save my time. They have the right to post and I have the right to choose not to read)

The missiles tracking delay was 200msec before the patch. Now it is 50msec. This means that the AA and A2A missiles now cause four times the network’s traffic they used to make before the patch (I guess!)

Missiles should be avoidable only using counter measures, as you said. That is why a sharp turn should not save you. Actually the fact that a sharp turn could save you was ridiculous. I tried some dogfights on no ranked servers with some of my friends just for the sake of fun. It was ridiculous! They took forever. The only way to end that fight was to trick your opponent to crash into something.

[F-1]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

As Wargimp pointed out the tank shells are slow for looks and gameplay reasons. After all, every infantry gun fires single projectiles travelling through world space and having to do hit detection. There´s no reason why a tank shell´s trajectory and hit detection would be more computationally expensive than a single infantry bullet (apart from the graphical representation, but that´s mainly gfx card work).

it is more computationally expensive because it has some graphics animation. You can definitly verify that info if you talk to Project Reality guys. They reason why they did not make the tank shell speed more realistic is the lag.

[SK]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Doesn´t make yet make sense to me, but you ain´t the guy talking crap, so there has to be something to it Any PRMM member here who can shed light on this?

[WarGimp]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

I write those posts for those who are looking for real fruitful discussion. Some people here are a joke. They just look for something to "argue" about (as opposed to "discuss"). While reading a thread I usually skip some of the posts written by some people. (Not for being arrogant, but I try to save my time. They have the right to post and I have the right to choose not to read)

Oh, I hears ya.
The tsking was NOT pointed your way.

I had a feeling that the work I put into that diagram would be rather pointless because very few people here are willing to look at the facts, much less think about them.

Sucks, but true.

The missiles tracking delay was 200msec before the patch. Now it is 50msec. This means that the AA and A2A missiles now cause four times the network’s traffic they used to make before the patch (I guess!)

Well, I can't say it's the missile tracking specifically that's causing some people's ping to rise... but it's definatly causing more CPU load. Without seeing the hardcode, it's impossible to guess how much traffic is being generated by missile tracking. It's possible that the tracking code is run on both the clients and server and only compairs to make sure they are in sync.

Missiles should be avoidable only using counter measures, as you said. That is why a sharp turn should not save you. Actually the fact that a sharp turn could save you was ridiculous. I tried some dogfights on no ranked servers with some of my friends just for the sake of fun. It was ridiculous! They took forever. The only way to end that fight was to trick your opponent to crash into something.

Yup. This is why I find it really funny that some folks are so big on waving 1.12's system as "requiring more skill". Ok, you had to use your cannons to gun people down and it wasn't easy to stay on someone's tail, but shaking missiles was something any nooblet could do.

As noted, since it was a total pain in the arse to gun people down, most people just didn't even bother. The time I spent in planes before 1.2 was almost exclusivly going for air to air simply because no-one else was bothering... and it sucked.

Question: did my comments on what a fuzzy logic system is make any sense to ya? I'm thinking about tossing together something to demonstrate that... but if people are gonna refuse to grasp the simple stuff, I'm not sure I should bother. Especially if you get it anyway.

[WarGimp]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

it is more computationally expensive because it has some graphics animation. You can definitly verify that info if you talk to Project Reality guys. They reason why they did not make the tank shell speed more realistic is the lag.

This is counter intuitive...

Oh wait. Maybe not.

I could be that tank shells are lag sensitive. Highspeed objects are more prone to "oops" and non-regged hits. When something's going hella fast, it's easier for the server to miss an impact. It's possible that this is what's going on with limitations on tankshell speed.

Otherwise, I'm at a loss... You know how simple it is to plot an arch. That's all the pathing that a projectial needs in BF2. Animatioin cycles shouldn't factor in either 'cause those happen regaurdless of speed.

[F-1]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Regarding the tank shell's speed info... I really cannot defend what I said and I could be wrong. all I have is a memory of what one of the good guys at PRMM said in one of the interviews. I even cannot find that interview now. I will post a link to it if I find it later.

The idea I wanted to pass to you guys is that there is one more factor that is affecting the missiles design in this game, which is the lag.

Wargimp, I definitely felt how much time you put in explaining those diagrams. I thought of the same thing: how many guys will understand and appreciate? very few indeed. However, keep the good posts coming :) some people definitely appreciate them. At least I do. The reason why I post in this forum and not any other forum is because of the higher ratio of mature guys.

Question: did my comments on what a fuzzy logic system is make any sense to ya? I'm thinking about tossing together something to demonstrate that... but if people are gonna refuse to grasp the simple stuff, I'm not sure I should bother. Especially if you get it anyway.

I think I understand what you are saying, but more details will definitely be appreciated. Probably a missile should have a higher chance of losing its target if it stays for a longer time in the air??!

[WarGimp]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Actually, there's 2 different elements to an optimal missile tracking system that are missing from BF2.

Fuzzy tracking cone:
Rather than having the tracking being an absolute value while the target is within the lock cone, you'd base the probability of maintaining a lock on how far the target is from the middle of the cone. Ie, if the locked target is dead ahead of the missile, there should be a 100% chance of keeping the lock. You ramp the probability down with the higher the degrees of off center.

Lag imposed in tracking:
This is a bit hard to explain as to why it's a good idea without making a rather complicated diagram. The idea is that right now, missiles can't be "suckered". Your best bet to dodge a missile *should* be to make non-predictable moves. The problem is there's no prediction and coding a missile to predict is... HARD!

SO, to fake prediction what you do is delay the tracking info a bit. Rather than the missile knowing exactly where you are, it needs to base it's info on the previous tick. This would cause it to not be able to track exactly where you are, thus a well timed radical change in heading should be able to throw it off track while simple turns woun't do a damned thing.

The problem is that you'd have to store tracking data between each tick to pass to the next one. This could be an icky bit of overhead.

BTW, my theories on this are based on work I did for guided missile and AI scripting for bots (trying to teach bots to lead a target without having godlike accuracy or resorting to the cop-out of adding pure randomness) in a sci-fi project I was involved with (I was effectively the head designer).

[tsh2005]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

lol wonder how long you typed up that