To the "Moral" Player

[Talus]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Why are you guys even bothering to argue over this?

This will be a non-issue with the next patch.

The game as the OP likes to keep referring to is going to change and all categories of players are just going to have to deal with it.

The players don't decide what happens..the game does. The game decided.

[Ruschak]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

personally think a major problem with this is both sides are worried that aren't being repesented. Since both types of players are flaming each other and threads keep popping up.

I propose when we start up our BF2 or BF2 SF game we should have a popup with a voting poll for the list of changes. A Yes or No to such heated topics. That way we would get all the voices from evey BF2 player playin, instead of just forum goers or poeple dissatified with the game.

Also to make the voting most legit only players that have 5 hours or more game time are allowed to vote.

This would truly tell how the community feels and would set things in stone.

[3Libras]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

I'm disturbed at the animosity expressed by some toward a player who intended only to voice his point of view. I didn't attempt to anger a single person. This will be my final post on this board.

I like nothing more than to hear opposing viewpoints, but you make your arguments against the man, when I've done absolutely nothing to offend you, or anyone else.

You pretend to know me from my stats, from my play on public servers, but know nothing about my play style within my unit. I'm an active leader within my clan, and share every tactic and strategy I've learned with my players.

You'll notice I have positive win ratio on every team, on every map I play on. But in your narrow conception of "teamwork", you've failed to realize how eliminating the opponent prevents him from capturing flags, and bleeds his ticket count.

My actions help my team to win. Because you recieve teamwork points for spamming med kits doesn't mean your an asset to your team. A player on any team with a KDR of 3:1 or more is with worth more than two medics with a negative KDR.

Although you may hate him, a player who locks down spawns on Karkand with a tank or apc allows for his team to take flags uncontested.

A pilot who achieves a high KDR locks the opponent down, and bleeds the opponent dry. Games are often decided by 30 to 50 kills, which are consistently attainable by a skilled pilot.

With a jet, I've helped my team to win more games than someone with a teamwork score five times mine. But you don't get any teamwork points for that. In your attempt to attack and discredit me, you've revealed your simplistic understanding of the game.

I've played enough, in public servers and within a unit, to know how rounds are won. I've spent countless hours running map strategy with my unit. I would politely ask you don't challenge my understand of "teamwork".

You also assume I'm "worried" about loosing my "competitive edge" with the new patch - not at all. My initial post was never created as reponse to it. I wished to explain why Battlefield 2 necessitates dolphin diving within competitive play, and why a player should not be judged for refusing to handicap themselves. The game is at fault - not the player.

You point to my use of the grenade launcher, but completely fail to mention my use of the Assault Rifle and Carbine. I'm looking foward to the new patch, as I'll get to use them even more. My strategy will remain what it has been - to utilize the most effective tactics available within the game engine.

I use "dolphin diving" as an example to illustrate my point, and I can't help but think you give credence to my initial assumption - there are players certain in the moral superioty of their game ethic. They are unwilling to accept an opposing view, and seek to stifle it with contempt. Despite what you say, you fit into my categories perfectly.

"He is not a moral player." You are a moutpiece of the self-righteous moralist.

I came to this forum with a heartfelt wish to explain my perspective, but apparently that isn't acceptable.

Dissenting voices within the community are to be shouted down.

Although there isn't much that parish has done us all the favour of posting himself, I can't help but add to this, even if you don't end up reading it.

Of course, you will.

The assault is made on you because you have made yourself a vessel for something that, although I could be wrong here through all my hoping, most of the community hates about this game. Bleeding tickets through methods such as noob toobing, raping spawn points, dolphin diving, and all that other skill-saving rubbish can be counted as 'teamwork' if you so morbidly insist- But you're really missing the point here. Spamming medkits is a fine way to bring a medic down. Teamplay is more, say, taking the risk to sprint across a street with an APC watching to revive a fallen teammate on the other side. You get a 'Thank you', and the both of you immediately get a sense of comradarie. That player will probably follow you around, and hell, in some instances clans are formed through simple little tasks like that. That is teamwork. If your idea of having fun is doing whatever you can to win the round for your team, then your stance on 'teamwork' is irrepairably warped.

As for your absolutes, can I jump in too? If your personal playing style is what melts your butter, then have your fun and stay off making posts like this. If finding unfair advantages and using them against people with skill and honour is what gets you off then don't bitch and enjoy whatever a good K-D ration gets you.

[RingPirate]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

It's intersting in the course of history war has beome more an more 'unfair'. In the far past 2 parties would meet on the battlefield and approaych each other head to head. The one having the better weapons or grater numbers won the battle. Soon man realized you can even gain grater atvantages from unfair tactics. Introduced probably by the guerilla warfare (babarians romans, maybe even before). Anyhow the point of this history lesson is. Some so called features of the game can be exploited and people do complain rightously about them. I think Dice has not done such a bad job at fixing them. Some tactics like prone jumping are unrealistic but not illegemate. "Competitve" players can use them, they have a "right" to do whatever they want. "Moral" players have a "right" to complain. People are taking the GAME very serious. Players who can't counter exploitive tactics and dont want to use them themselves but dont go somewhere else but start to bitch at the other player are idiots. Well have I missed anything?

[[1RGR]LD|Pvt.Amerikai]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

But is it not in our nature to critique one anothers style of doing something? It's in our nature as humans to do so; with roots in furthering our species, to protect our brethren from harm by warning them aganist it, and helping them learn to do it better. And now a days, when the safe idea, if not motivation, is applied to video games, I think it is silly and foolish to say thats its not our right. Hell, of course it is, if we weren't meant to judge...we wouldn't do it.

[wbcninjaofmist]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

I totally disagree with your premise. As a player, I most certainly have the right to comment on another player's gaming, especially if it has a negative effect on my (reasonable) enjoyment of the game.

You want a logical basis? Think about this: a multiplayer game must provide (reasonable) enjoyment for all its players. They are all invested in the game, not just you. If you do something that I and many others find unacceptable, then it is our right to comment and complain.

Perfect case in point: if I buy this game and log on and tk and tk and tk over and over, deliberately, then what would happen? Other players would call for my being booted. But wait, I say! Don't I have the right to play as I like? Nope, because my enjoyment does not take precedence over other players'. If enough players find my conduct disrupts their play, their right is greater than mine.

If you like to dive, fine -- do it with like-minded players on your own servers, no loss to anyone. But now that EA is apparently ruling that type of play is not allowed, it's disingenuous to go on about your "right" to do something that will be disallowed.

And by the way? If you're going to call for a cessation on attacks, you should attend to your own post. Phrases like "self-righteous" come to mind.

"a multiplayer game must provide (reasonable) enjoyment for all its players. They are all invested in the game, not just you." - Are you implying that people should only play the multiplayer game in a way that makes all the other players happy too? I should play the game, but o wait , the enemy players wont enjoy me riding to their flag in a tank so I should "go it on foot" that way theyll be happy? If so your forgetting that the core of the multiplayer game is both fun AND competition. There will ALWAYS be a winning end and ALWAYS be a losing end. Maybe the winners should let the losers win sometimes too right? Maybe they would enjoy that......... HONESTLY- when you play "according to what you say here" do you limit yourself to doing things the enemy would enjoy?


Perfect case in point: if I buy this game and log on and tk and tk and tk over and over, deliberately, then what would happen - Tk is not a perfect case in point, its not even the topic of discussion here. Tk is not held by a few as unacceptable , EVERYONE who plays does not enjoy being tked.

Don't I have the right to play as I like? Nope If enough players find my conduct disrupts their play, their right is greater than mine. o so the good pilots should stop taking out infantry from the air, "the enemy team is complaining, - they must not enjoy my actions"
The good snipers should limit themselves and only take out a few tragets here and there because "the enemy team is complaining, - they must not enjoy my actions"
The assault class should stop using the m203 why?"the enemy team is complaining, - they must not enjoy my actions"
THe player being shot at hops away to cover, nope he should have stood there because hopping isnt enjoyed by the enemy, why? "the enemy team is complaining, - they must not enjoy my actions"

My points - you CAN NEVER please everyone , Anyone who plays a competitive game like bf2 (where teams are involved you v me ) that tries to play in ways that the competition would enjoy , tries to please the enemy while enjoying the game themselves wont happen, because through trying to please the enemy they will subsequently lose to that enemy. Your argument is kind and nice but really not justified in a war arcade game... maybe more for a pre-k hug festival where "YAY everyone wins"

[parish]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Players who can't counter exploitive tactics and dont want to use them themselves but dont go somewhere else but start to bitch at the other player are idiots. Well have I missed anything?

\

I counter the tactics just fine ty. I kill bunny hoppers, dolphin divers and n00b t00bers all the time. The acts themselves are more of a joke than a threat to me. That is I don't complain about it because I can't deal with it. I may bitch because it's an juvenile way of playing the game and it looks stupid to boot. You can't run down a flight of stairs in the game without taking damage, but you can jump 6 feet in the air, go prone and land on your gut with no damage? ROFL....

[3Libras]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

[COLOR=black]
My points - you CAN NEVER please everyone , Anyone who plays a competitive game like bf2 (where teams are involved you v me ) that tries to play in ways that the competition would enjoy , tries to please the enemy while enjoying the game themselves wont happen, because through trying to please the enemy they will subsequently lose to that enemy. Your argument is kind and nice but really not justified in a war arcade game... maybe more for a pre-k hug festival where "YAY everyone wins"

I think the issue here is more less the fact that you people that believe n00b t00bing and other lame junk should be defended. If that's your style of play, then go and do it. We have every right to knock you down on the forums because we who play 'fairly' (I know, your definition is warped, so it deserves quotations) go through extra length to win. It all comes down to, 'you play your way, I play my way'. But in the end I don't think that you have the right to complain or defend your snake-like tactics, an opinion is enough and the started of this thread is awfully sure that he/she's been wronged.

[parish]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

No offense intended wbcninjaofmist, but it is amusing to me that your sig fits right into your point of view on the matter.

I am not attacking any one person/player, but it would seem to me that the people who take the most offense to the complaints are the ones who use what the rest of us deem and cheap tactics and need to use them to be competitive and to survive.

Maybe they are angry that they wont be able to do it the same way anymore. Perhaps they are holding on to the last glimmering light of what the deem to be a valid way of playing the game. In the end, when all is said and done, the things they do that we don't like get nerf'd.

Game manufacturers comply to the request of the masses. Obvioulsy using this logic, the masses have spoken and the changes are going to be made. This would be the big picture here. So defending a tactic that is being removed because the majority don't agree with it is moot don't you think?

Skill is not defined by the ability to take advantage of an exploit or game hiccup. Skill is being able to be victorious over those who do. 10,000 n00b t00b kills in someones stats don't make that person a threat to me. The fact that I have only been killed by the grenade launcher 4 times in over 200+ hours of gameplay should be a threat to them.

[Arkasha]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

"a multiplayer game must provide (reasonable) enjoyment for all its players. They are all invested in the game, not just you." - Are you implying that people should only play the multiplayer game in a way that makes all the other players happy too?

Yes, in a way. There should be reasonable regard for the happiness of others. Again, think about why everyone hates tk'rs, suicide-punishers, and the like. Because they do things that are utterly selfish, and designed to bug other players.

If a lot of otherwise reasonable players (and I've yet to see someone make a different claim about the playerbase) say they don't like the hopping, diving, etc., then they have a right to express that opinion, and if the designers agree, then the game should be changed.

I should play the game, but o wait , the enemy players wont enjoy me riding to their flag in a tank so I should "go it on foot" that way theyll be happy?

You're puttng an interpretation that is convenient to you, but not at all what I said. The keyword here is "reasonable." Any time you compete, you acknowledge there is a winner and a loser, and you may be the loser.

If so your forgetting that the core of the multiplayer game is both fun AND competition. There will ALWAYS be a winning end and ALWAYS be a losing end. Maybe the winners should let the losers win sometimes too right? Maybe they would enjoy that......... HONESTLY- when you play "according to what you say here" do you limit yourself to doing things the enemy would enjoy?

Again, think reasonable. You've seen examples of reasonable and unreasonable behavior on servers, as have I. You surely know the difference. Nobody cares about the kids who throw a pout because they were fairly beaten, but when enough people protest about a tactic (enough to make DICE and EA take notice), you're basically left with very few options:

1. The people protesting are unreasonable. If so, why? Do they show other evidence of being unreasonable? I do not think so.

2. The tactic is unacceptable and should be removed. Again, if so -- why? Because enough reasonable people don't like it. It is their game just as much as it is the hoppers' and divers. Their sentiments should be heard.

Perfect case in point: if I buy this game and log on and tk and tk and tk over and over, deliberately, then what would happen -

Tk is not a perfect case in point, its not even the topic of discussion here. Tk is not held by a few as unacceptable , EVERYONE who plays does not enjoy being tked.

Sorry, not true. There are clans that do nothing BUT tk. There are people who do nothing but tk. They are playing the game they like their way.

However, if you find that behavior unacceptable, then you basically admit that player enjoyment is important in the game, and that something otherwise allowed by EA is still unacceptable.

Don't I have the right to play as I like? Nope If

enough players find my conduct disrupts their play, their right is greater than mine.

o so the good pilots should stop taking out infantry from the air, "the enemy team is complaining, - they must not enjoy my actions"

Please, you should stop trying to create extreme examples. I remind you I used the term "reasonable" over and over. You are creating straw men instead of addressing what I actually said.

The good snipers should limit themselves and only take out a few tragets here and there because "the enemy team is complaining, - they must not enjoy my actions"
The assault class should stop using the m203 why?"the enemy team is complaining, - they must not enjoy my actions"
THe player being shot at hops away to cover, nope he should have stood there because hopping isnt enjoyed by the enemy, why? "the enemy team is complaining, - they must not enjoy my actions"

Repeat, repeat, repeat. Straw men.

My points - you CAN NEVER please everyone , Anyone who plays a competitive game like bf2 (where teams are involved you v me ) that tries to play in ways that the competition would enjoy , tries to please the enemy while enjoying the game themselves wont happen, because through trying to please the enemy they will subsequently lose to that enemy. Your argument is kind and nice but really not justified in a war arcade game... maybe more for a pre-k hug festival where "YAY everyone wins"

Your argument is basically worthless, because it doesn't address mine. I never claimed to try and please everyone. I merely asserted that everyone has the right to reasonable enjoyment of the game. Everyone. Not just the people who want to hop and dive.

Kindness has nothing to do with it.

[kd123]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Bravo to the thread starter. BTW i reckon i'm a '3' player type. Biggest problem i can see in bf2 players and the bf2 community are what are commonly reffered to as 'noobs' or griefers. I did my fair share of complaining about the bh when it was at it's uber pwnage heyday but i found creative ways to take it down. I didn't like the bh but rolled up my sleeves and took it on as a challenge, and generally won (c4 on the front of the mec helo ftw). However most of the griefs that are spammed non stop on all bf2 forums are, as the thread starter states, game features. However of course these features are now in the process of being removed at the behest of the whining majority, who are no doubt indulging themselves in delusions of greatness when diving and hopping etc. have been removed, as if the new patch will turn them into the uber pwners they no doubt believe themelves to truly be. However it won't happen, skilled crafty players will always beat the griefers. I don't suggest that the griefing majority are naturally unskilled players, just, well, perhaps 'moral', but basically lazy and not prepared to play the REAL game but rather just whine at losing and believe in some stupid image of what bf2 could be if all the 'amoral' aspects of bf2 were removed. But it won't work like that, if anything, the whiner is his own worst enemy. Why? Well now the griefer is going to truly have to confront his own inherent laziness and inverted morality for the farce it is. All the ways in which noobs can pwn are being taken out, at the behest of those they benifit, leaving bf2 as a game with no exploits, no 'cheap' tactics for an unskilled player to use to keep himself in the game. Bf2 will now be a counterstrike style true test of gaming guile, wit and skill, and there is nothing left for the griefer to blame his own ineptitude on, it's all been patched.

Oh wait, i forgot, HITBOXES...

[skitzo]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Well alot of people say that bunny-hopping and dolphin-diving is unrealistic. I agree but in real life people will try to stay alive no matter what. Human instinct. The problem is that this is a game. Games were meant to bring fun to us all. Online gaming was created so that not only we will have fun, but we will be able to share our fun with others. Bunny-hopping and dolphin-diving is the anti-fun thing for the main reason is that anyone who chooses to do it has become god-like to what information I have gathered. Teamkills, the above stated actions, and cheating/hacking is totally unexceptible because you lose the priority, the purpose of the game especially in online gaming because it takes away fun to other players. An example would be to be tked repeatedly without justice or "bunny-hopped" repeatedly and there is absolutely nothing about it. I say do what you want. If you don't like what is happening, spend time on finding ways to combat it. Plus, next patch will fix alot of these problems somewhat. Please don't fight anymore about it because I am tired of you people beating a dead horse and then shooting it for good measure. As some people say: "Whatever rocks your boat."

P.S. I know I contradicted myself but I have to view it form all views possible.

[Him]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Ultimately, an EA employee has stated that bunnyhopping, dolphin-diving, etc. are not how the game was intended to be played (aka, an explotation of the way the game happened to be put together, aka they are naughty, naughty actions ). As a result, the staff is attempting to address them with the new patch.

[Arkasha]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Bravo to the thread starter. BTW i reckon i'm a '3' player type. Biggest problem i can see in bf2 players and the bf2 community are what are commonly reffered to as 'noobs' or griefers. I did my fair share of complaining about the bh when it was at it's uber pwnage heyday but i found creative ways to take it down. I didn't like the bh but rolled up my sleeves and took it on as a challenge, and generally won (c4 on the front of the mec helo ftw). However most of the griefs that are spammed non stop on all bf2 forums are, as the thread starter states, game features. However of course these features are now in the process of being removed at the behest of the whining majority, who are no doubt indulging themselves in delusions of greatness when diving and hopping etc. have been removed, as if the new patch will turn them into the uber pwners they no doubt believe themelves to truly be. However it won't happen, skilled crafty players will always beat the griefers. I don't suggest that the griefing majority are naturally unskilled players, just, well, perhaps 'moral', but basically lazy and not prepared to play the REAL game but rather just whine at losing and believe in some stupid image of what bf2 could be if all the 'amoral' aspects of bf2 were removed. But it won't work like that, if anything, the whiner is his own worst enemy. Why? Well now the griefer is going to truly have to confront his own inherent laziness and inverted morality for the farce it is. All the ways in which noobs can pwn are being taken out, at the behest of those they benifit, leaving bf2 as a game with no exploits, no 'cheap' tactics for an unskilled player to use to keep himself in the game. Bf2 will now be a counterstrike style true test of gaming guile, wit and skill, and there is nothing left for the griefer to blame his own ineptitude on, it's all been patched.

Oh wait, i forgot, HITBOXES...

You know,

Your comments are basically 95% abuse of players you don't agree with. That's all. You repeat the totally inaccurate charge that people don't like the BH, etc., because they're "lazy." Then you make the totally ridiculous assertion that the tactics are a way for the "noobs to pwn."

What nonsense. Many of the same people who want to keep those tactics claim they're a sign of "skill" which takes practice to acquire. Yet the new player is supposed to be able to do this, and still compete with skilled players? Yeah, right. Not to mention that these tactics make it practically impossible for a newer player to even hit a hopper, much less score a kill.

As for the rest of it, it would be offensive if it weren't frankly so stupid. But here's a clue for you: people aren't arguing against these tactics because they want to "pwn," they're arguing because they think the tactics are cheap and exploitive.

[|^|wulf]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

It always kills me that whenever a new online FPS comes out, one of the first things people starting crying about is "Bunny Hopping." Even though people always bitch about it with nearly every game, it somehow manages to remain the chief concern among idiots with internet connections everywhere.

I remember nearly six years ago when people were saying "Bunny Hopping is going to be the down fall of Counter-Strike." Almost four years later when I stopped playing CS, people were still saying the same thing. I played DoD, which had a decent stamina system, and people still cried about "bunny hopping" and going prone. Bring in BF1942, and the beat goes on. Now there is BF2, and the march carries on.

Just as a child on a beach will always be able to faintly hear the ocean in a conc shell, gamers will always be able to hear the frustrated tyrates of tards on the internet howling about bunny hopping.

I'm waiting for the dust to settle over the hopping issue so we can start to listen to all the "spawn camper" moaning.