To the "Moral" Player

[parish]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Bravo to the thread starter. BTW i reckon i'm a '3' player type. Biggest problem i can see in bf2 players and the bf2 community are what are commonly reffered to as 'noobs' or griefers. I did my fair share of complaining about the bh when it was at it's uber pwnage heyday but i found creative ways to take it down. I didn't like the bh but rolled up my sleeves and took it on as a challenge, and generally won (c4 on the front of the mec helo ftw). However most of the griefs that are spammed non stop on all bf2 forums are, as the thread starter states, game features. However of course these features are now in the process of being removed at the behest of the whining majority, who are no doubt indulging themselves in delusions of greatness when diving and hopping etc. have been removed, as if the new patch will turn them into the uber pwners they no doubt believe themelves to truly be. However it won't happen, skilled crafty players will always beat the griefers. I don't suggest that the griefing majority are naturally unskilled players, just, well, perhaps 'moral', but basically lazy and not prepared to play the REAL game but rather just whine at losing and believe in some stupid image of what bf2 could be if all the 'amoral' aspects of bf2 were removed. But it won't work like that, if anything, the whiner is his own worst enemy. Why? Well now the griefer is going to truly have to confront his own inherent laziness and inverted morality for the farce it is. All the ways in which noobs can pwn are being taken out, at the behest of those they benifit, leaving bf2 as a game with no exploits, no 'cheap' tactics for an unskilled player to use to keep himself in the game. Bf2 will now be a counterstrike style true test of gaming guile, wit and skill, and there is nothing left for the griefer to blame his own ineptitude on, it's all been patched.

Oh wait, i forgot, HITBOXES...

There are so many thngs horribly horribly wrong and inaccurate in your post I don't know where to begin correcting it. You either cannot read (hence your lack of perspecitve on the real issue here) or you can read and simply choose not to. Where the hell did laziness comments come from? Seriously... dude... wake up.

Sadly , the majority of us are skilled players whom also have a sense of morality, which seems to contradict your own perspective. This whole thing is about tactics, and if you read more, you would see that on more than one occasion, people mentioned not the skill of the player, but the use of the tactic itself.

The only response to your comment on the noobs and greifers being the BF2 community, you have cemented your lack of knowledge. The people who have stood up and said this cheap crap is wrong, are the one's that could own you on server and have decided to be the voice for the rest. I am glad you rose to the occasion and figured out a way to take out the BH. You must be proud. Some of us didn't need to spend time figuring it out, we just shot it down. Don't cite your own accomplishments as a basis for your ability to speak to the greater issue.

Responses like yours not only cloud the issue, but lend themselves to a show of ignorance. My night might have been boring if you had not replied in this thread. Thank you for giving me a good laugh.

[kd123]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

There are so many thngs horribly horribly wrong and inaccurate in your post I don't know where to begin correcting it. You either cannot read (hence your lack of perspecitve on the real issue here) or you can read and simply choose not to. Where the hell did laziness comments come from? Seriously... dude... wake up.

Sadly , the majority of us are skilled players whom also have a sense of morality, which seems to contradict your own perspective. This whole thing is about tactics, and if you read more, you would see that on more than one occasion, people mentioned not the skill of the player, but the use of the tactic itself.

The only response to your comment on the noobs and greifers being the BF2 community, you have cemented your lack of knowledge. The people who have stood up and said this cheap crap is wrong, are the one's that could own you on server and have decided to be the voice for the rest. I am glad you rose to the occasion and figured out a way to take out the BH. You must be proud. Some of us didn't need to spend time figuring it out, we just shot it down. Don't cite your own accomplishments as a basis for your ability to speak to the greater issue.

Responses like yours not only cloud the issue, but lend themselves to a show of ignorance. My night might have been boring if you had not replied in this thread. Thank you for giving me a good laugh.

And you just proved me right, my 'lack of knowledge'? You can't attack the issues i raised so you attack the person, just like the griefer who can't win at the game so attacks the game.

Dude i think you know i'm right...

[parish]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

What do I chose to be.... a moral player:

mor·al
adj.

1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.

Or an im-moral player:

immoral
adj

1: violating principles of right and wrong
2: not adhering to ethical or moral principles; "base and unpatriotic motives"; "a base, degrading way of life"; "cheating is dishonorable"; "they considered colonialism immoral"
3: morally unprincipled; "immoral behavior"
4: characterized by wickedness or immorality; "led a very bad life"
5: marked by immorality; deviating from what is considered right or proper or good; "depraved criminals"; "a perverted sense of loyalty"; "the reprobate conduct of a gambling aristocrat"

I'll go ahead and continue to be a moral player. Thanks for asking.

[parish]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

And you just proved me right, my 'lack of knowledge'? You can't attack the issues i raised so you attack the person, just like the griefer who can't win at the game so attacks the game.

Dude i think you know i'm right...

You just proved you can't read. I did "attack" youre psuedo issues. I aksed where the laziness comments came from. You did not respond to that.

I mentioned that you called the BF2 community "greifers" and "n00bs", and then went on to explain how that was innacurate.

Should I go on? If you would like me to break down every point I made. I will, just ask.

[kd123]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

You know,

Your comments are basically 95% abuse of players you don't agree with. That's all. You repeat the totally inaccurate charge that people don't like the BH, etc., because they're "lazy." Then you make the totally ridiculous assertion that the tactics are a way for the "noobs to pwn."

What nonsense. Many of the same people who want to keep those tactics claim they're a sign of "skill" which takes practice to acquire. Yet the new player is supposed to be able to do this, and still compete with skilled players? Yeah, right. Not to mention that these tactics make it practically impossible for a newer player to even hit a hopper, much less score a kill.

As for the rest of it, it would be offensive if it weren't frankly so stupid. But here's a clue for you: people aren't arguing against these tactics because they want to "pwn," they're arguing because they think the tactics are cheap and exploitive.

And you totally misinterpreted what i said...

[kd123]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

You just proved you can't read. I did "attack" youre psuedo issues. I aksed where the laziness comments came from. You did not respond to that.

I mentioned that you called the BF2 community "greifers" and "n00bs", and then went on to explain how that was innacurate.

Should I go on? If you would like me to break down every point I made. I will, just ask.

i think i've hit a nerve with you, so please don't bore me any longer. I told the facts and people like the type i describe now want to tear me to bits. Omg the shock.

[parish]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

i think i've hit a nerve with you, so please don't bore me any longer. I told the facts and people like the type i describe now want to tear me to bits. Omg the shock.

Dude, go home. Don't step up to the adult table if you should still be sitting with the kiddies in the corner. The nerve you hit was my incredible dislike for ignorance and stupidity. Again, if you have nothing to contribute to this conversation. Go away.

[kd123]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Dude, go home. Don't step up to the adult table if you should still be sitting with the kiddies in the corner. The nerve you hit was my incredible dislike for ignorance and stupidity. Again, if you have nothing to contribute to this conversation. Go away.

Like i said, you can't attack the issue so you attack the person. Keep proving my point right please.

[wbcninjaofmist]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Yes, in a way. There should be reasonable regard for the happiness of others. Again, think about why everyone hates tk'rs, suicide-punishers, and the like. Because they do things that are utterly selfish, and designed to bug other players.

If a lot of otherwise reasonable players (and I've yet to see someone make a different claim about the playerbase) say they don't like the hopping, diving, etc., then they have a right to express that opinion, and if the designers agree, then the game should be changed.



You're puttng an interpretation that is convenient to you, but not at all what I said. The keyword here is "reasonable." Any time you compete, you acknowledge there is a winner and a loser, and you may be the loser.



Again, think reasonable. You've seen examples of reasonable and unreasonable behavior on servers, as have I. You surely know the difference. Nobody cares about the kids who throw a pout because they were fairly beaten, but when enough people protest about a tactic (enough to make DICE and EA take notice), you're basically left with very few options:

1. The people protesting are unreasonable. If so, why? Do they show other evidence of being unreasonable? I do not think so.

2. The tactic is unacceptable and should be removed. Again, if so -- why? Because enough reasonable people don't like it. It is their game just as much as it is the hoppers' and divers. Their sentiments should be heard.



[color=black]

Sorry, not true. There are clans that do nothing BUT tk. There are people who do nothing but tk. They are playing the game they like their way.

However, if you find that behavior unacceptable, then you basically admit that player enjoyment is important in the game, and that something otherwise allowed by EA is still unacceptable.



[color=black]

Please, you should stop trying to create extreme examples. I remind you I used the term "reasonable" over and over. You are creating straw men instead of addressing what I actually said.




Repeat, repeat, repeat. Straw men.



Your argument is basically worthless, because it doesn't address mine. I never claimed to try and please everyone. I merely asserted that everyone has the right to reasonable enjoyment of the game. Everyone. Not just the people who want to hop and dive.

Kindness has nothing to do with it.

1. you lack Reading comprehension : I said EVERYONE dislikes being tked TKED = TEAM KILLED , not team killing. NOONE LIKES TO BE TEAM KILLED. Whatever clan you have found that enjoys tkI N G , has nothing to do with my point that everyone dislikes being tk E D.


2. "Please, you should stop trying to create extreme examples. I remind you I used the term "reasonable" over and over. You are creating straw men instead of addressing what I actually said." The examples I used are not extreme at all. The examples are examples of exactly what other things are complained about by many players. You trying to tell me many players dont complain about: Jets/tank whores/m203 as well as the jumping issue? You have to be kidding if you think those are extreme examples. Check the forums and i guarantee youll find many complaints about these things ruining the "ENJOYMENT" of other players

3. "I never claimed to try and please everyone. I merely asserted that everyone has the right to reasonable enjoyment of the game. " stop contradicting yourself. -period

4. 1. The people protesting are unreasonable. If so, why? Do they show other evidence of being unreasonable? I do not think so. Im speaking to YOUR ideas as unreasonable. There will always be things like tactics in a multiplayer game that diminish the "enjoyment" of other players because there will always be Opinions of what should and shouldnt be done and opinions are relative. Therefore your idea that everyone should have reasonable enjoyment is like i said "KIND and nice" but its not possible. Your interacting with other people in a multiplayer game and other people's opinions of what is correct/incorrect/or what is enjoyable or infringes upon my enjoyment.

5. Again your contradicting youself here " 2. The tactic is unacceptable and should be removed. Again, if so -- why? Because enough reasonable people don't like it. - but here you go again -It is their game just as much as it is the hoppers' and divers. Then shouldnt they be entitled to just as much enjoyment? Im trying to show you how erred your thinking is. NO MATTER WHAT TACTICS ARE USED/NOT USED EVERYONE IS NOT GOING TO GET ENJOYMENT. What utopian society do you hail from?

[parish]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

mo·ron
n.

1. A stupid person; a dolt.
2. Psychology. A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education.

[kd123]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

mo·ron
n.

1. A stupid person; a dolt.
2. Psychology. A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education.

I see your vanity extends to posting more of your autobiography. Like i said, can't attack the problem, so attack the person.

[JarEme]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Your hands aren't clean either parish.

[wbcninjaofmist]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

I see your vanity extends to posting more of your autobiography. Like i said, can't attack the problem, so attack the person.

I must agree with you, that poster still hasnt addressed the issue other than attacking you as a person

[Mazur]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Let me outline a premise, which I have thought long and hard about:

As a player, you have absolutely no right to criticize another a person's style of play. You have every right to criticize a flawed game, but not how someone chooses to play it.

If you choose to abstain from bunny-hoping, or any other tactic that's labeled "unrealistic", within a game engine that was never intended for "realism", then BRAVO!

But please, keep your self-righteous indignation to yourself.

There are three types of players within this community:

1. The first plays the game as is. They may complain about a certain tactic, or a certain imbalance, but largely this sort of player could care less. This is perhaps the category into which the greatest number of players falls.

2. The second chooses to criticize the game for its lack of realism, not only making the questionable assumption that Battlefield was intended to be realistic, but also assuming that reality is a viable premise from which to base game design!

A minority of these players goes on to criticize others for using tactics such as "dolphin-diving" - as if the PLAYER is to blame the the DEVELOPER'S inclusion of what EA themselves labels a "feature"!

As is evident in these boards, some denounce and persecute them with almost religious fervency. At times, one can only smile at the hilarity of it all!

Ironically, what these gamers fail to realize is that with every negative post and negative comment they do nothing but breed contempt where it should not exist.

Their frustration is caused no one but themselves, and they are ultimately just as detrimental to the community as the players they criticize.

You are the "purist", the "moral" player.

3. But there are a third sort of player, those such as myself, who approach the game with an amoral eye. The competition player does not handicap himself, because he knows his opponent will show him no such courtesy. These players work to gain a competitive edge within the game, and are willing to use any tactic to achieve it.

I challenge you to find one logical basis on which to tell ME how to play the game.

(No, "realism" and your personal enjoyment don't count.)

Because there is no premise besides the two above-mentioned fallacies, I'll start with a simple outline of why Battlefield 2, in its current form, necessitates the use of dolphin diving for competitive play.

1. Weak, inaccurate weapons make the grenade launcher, rocket launcher, and C4 Frisbee often better at eliminating infantry than a standard rifle. (I have a 2:1 KDR with the Assault Rifle, which is likely more than 80% of players on this board. Don't bother me telling me I have poor aim.)

It just so happens that all of the above mentioned weapons are even more deadly when combined with dolphin diving. Any competitive player knows this.

Additionally, the above-mentioned weapons allow a single player to eliminate multiple targets. Either as a primary or secondary solution. With only a rifle, it is often impossible to quickly eliminate two targets at range due to bullet deviation.

2. Weak, ineffective anti-tank weapons make dolphin-diving invaluable to the player who wishes to evade or engage armored vehicles.

3. Players who take the AT kit often receive no points for destroying vehicles, and are at a liability at close range. Dolphin-diving at close range is the only way to effectively kill another play with the sub-machine gun.

As you see, the flaws within the game necessitate dolphin-diving. Players do not use it to "grief" you, they use it because it is the most effective tactic available to them within the game engine. If rifles were more effective, or the hit-detection simply less spotty, resorting to other tactics wouldn’t be as essential.

I for one am looking forward to the patch, as I too would like to see a slower, more tactically oriented game. I hate infantry combat in its current state, as I find the most satisfying kills come from the use of my rifle’s iron-sights. But as long as my opponent is able to use these tactics, it would be moronic to handicap myself.

More importantly, no player has any right to tell me, or anyone else, what tactics I'm allowed to use.

And, yes, the top clans WILL still be TOP once the game is patched. They're the best not because they bunny-hop, but because they're willing to explore the game without the pretension of the "purists".

Judge the tactic; judge the game, but never the player. To do so can only be described as juvenile. It creates only contempt and resentment within what should be an enjoyable pastime.

I would then propose to the moderators of this forum that threads, which attack players for using legitimate tactics within the game engine, be instantly locked.

Proper threads should focus on the flaw within the game, with suggestions as to how to fix them.

Feel free to comment, but I ask you show the same respect that I've tried to. I'm prone to frustration just as much as next player.

Wow you wasted way too much of your own time writing that...

[parish]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

kd123 ..... This is what an attack on you looks like:

You have contributed nothing but fodder in this thread. You also make it a point of attacking others in other threads and end up getting called a kid and an infant by them. What makes you think no one will catch on to the fact that you have nothing better to do than pick fights with people?

Let me give some examples of your fine fine work to the rest of the group...

http://www.totalbf2.com/forums/showthread.php?p=547095#post547095

http://www.totalbf2.com/forums/showthread.php?p=547021#post547021

http://www.totalbf2.com/forums/showthread.php?p=546887#post546887

http://www.totalbf2.com/forums/showthread.php?p=546725#post546725

I'm not the first person to accuse you of being a child.

I must agree with you, that poster still hasnt addressed the issue other than attacking you as a person

Wow. You can't read either eh? I guess the two of you make a perfect pair. I did ask him where his "laziness" comments came from. I also asked him about the comment towards the majority of the BF2 community being "n00bs" and "griefers". He (kd123) has yet to qaulify his statements.