To the "Moral" Player

[PBJTime]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Wow, Warbird, nice post.

I don't think I can contribute anything that would be of much now that you've said most, if not all, of what needed to be said.

But I will say this. My folks taught me long ago that winning isn't everything. Call me old fashioned.

[parish]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

I give Ender credit for having the hours of free time he needed to properly word his bloated post. His use of grammar and nuance in his writing show a very hefty sense of self worth. The sad fact is that I take everything he says to be his opinion and lend it no more merit than anything else no matter how well he tries to hide his agenda.

On another note, I do not know how much credence I would give anyone on their ability to speak to the game playability when the dev's stated it was a team play game, and the person whom started this whole thread has no concept of such a thing. After a phenomenal almost 400 hours of playtime, 200 of them as a lone wolf, our author has the teamwork score of a gnat and over 2 thousand kills with a n00b t00b. He no doubt lives and dies by the tactics we all frown upon which explains his anger because said tactics will be stripped from him in the next patch, so the moral vs. immoral stance is no longer valid. He is not a moral player. Enough said.

I simply ask that anyone who claims to have an enlightened view on any of this to look at the numbers and see for themselves. I realize that stats cannot tell you everything about someone, but they can clearly show if the player assists his teammates and tries to be a productive member of a team. Ender does neither and therefore has no weight in my mind. This posts origin came from someone who does the things we don’t like. This explains his biased view and why he does not like complainers. If I used tactics that others thought were dishonorable, I guess I would feel the way he does.

I also do not like absolutes and Ender thinks his word is enough. I would love to see the numbers behind his 3 types of players list. I’m not in his list. I play for the camaraderie and fun. I am also in a clan that competes. I won’t play where there are no rules and I expect a player to have some dignity and not use cheap tactics to gain an edge where their skill has failed them. I however, am not the norm.

On a final note, Ender please refrain from making ANY further statements as to how complete and final a piece of software is when it is released. Your statements on this subject bother those of us who write code and you have horribly misinformed as to how the lifecycle of software development works. The guys who write the code do not always call the shots. The guys who write the checks do. The completion of a product is directly related to the publishing date of said product. On that subject, please drop it.

[American Infidel]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

People like you are so very very lucky I do not have my own server, the second I see you pulling the dolphin diving, C4 tossing + bunny hoppin at point blank range antics, your ass would be gone for good, it is so ****ing ridiculous and out of place in a game like BF2 and those who exploit it deserve to be banned from every server they come into contact with.

[3Libras]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

I hate the original post of this thread enough to not have the will to respond to it maturely. :<<<

[{USI}_DirTyDeeDs]

Re: To the &quot;Moral&quot; Player

Bravo! parish :evil:

[TAW_Ender]

Re: To the &quot;Moral&quot; Player

I give Ender credit for having the hours of free time he needed to properly word his bloated post. His use of grammar and nuance in his writing show a very hefty sense of self worth. The sad fact is that I take everything he says to be his opinion and lend it no more merit than anything else no matter how well he tries to hide his agenda.

On another note, I do not know how much credence I would give anyone on their ability to speak to the game playability when the dev's stated it was a team play game, and the person whom started this whole thread has no concept of such a thing. After a phenomenal almost 400 hours of playtime, 200 of them as a lone wolf, our author has the teamwork score of a gnat and over 2 thousand kills with a n00b t00b. He no doubt lives and dies by the tactics we all frown upon which explains his anger because said tactics will be stripped from him in the next patch, so the moral vs. immoral stance is no longer valid. He is not a moral player. Enough said.

I simply ask that anyone who claims to have an enlightened view on any of this to look at the numbers and see for themselves. I realize that stats cannot tell you everything about someone, but they can clearly show if the player assists his teammates and tries to be a productive member of a team. Ender does neither and therefore has no weight in my mind. This posts origin came from someone who does the things we don’t like. This explains his biased view and why he does not like complainers. If I used tactics that others thought were dishonorable, I guess I would feel the way he does.

I also do not like absolutes and Ender thinks his word is enough. I would love to see the numbers behind his 3 types of players list. I’m not in his list. I play for the camaraderie and fun. I am also in a clan that competes. I won’t play where there are no rules and I expect a player to have some dignity and not use cheap tactics to gain an edge where their skill has failed them. I however, am not the norm.

On a final note, Ender please refrain from making ANY further statements as to how complete and final a piece of software is when it is released. Your statements on this subject bother those of us who write code and you have horribly misinformed as to how the lifecycle of software development works. The guys who write the code do not always call the shots. The guys who write the checks do. The completion of a product is directly related to the publishing date of said product. On that subject, please drop it.

I'm disturbed at the animosity expressed by some toward a player who intended only to voice his point of view. I didn't attempt to anger a single person. This will be my final post on this board.

I like nothing more than to hear opposing viewpoints, but you make your arguments against the man, when I've done absolutely nothing to offend you, or anyone else.

You pretend to know me from my stats, from my play on public servers, but know nothing about my play style within my unit. I'm an active leader within my clan, and share every tactic and strategy I've learned with my players.

You'll notice I have positive win ratio on every team, on every map I play on. But in your narrow conception of "teamwork", you've failed to realize how eliminating the opponent prevents him from capturing flags, and bleeds his ticket count.

My actions help my team to win. Because you recieve teamwork points for spamming med kits doesn't mean your an asset to your team. A player on any team with a KDR of 3:1 or more is with worth more than two medics with a negative KDR.

Although you may hate him, a player who locks down spawns on Karkand with a tank or apc allows for his team to take flags uncontested.

A pilot who achieves a high KDR locks the opponent down, and bleeds the opponent dry. Games are often decided by 30 to 50 kills, which are consistently attainable by a skilled pilot.

With a jet, I've helped my team to win more games than someone with a teamwork score five times mine. But you don't get any teamwork points for that. In your attempt to attack and discredit me, you've revealed your simplistic understanding of the game.

I've played enough, in public servers and within a unit, to know how rounds are won. I've spent countless hours running map strategy with my unit. I would politely ask you don't challenge my understand of "teamwork".

You also assume I'm "worried" about loosing my "competitive edge" with the new patch - not at all. My initial post was never created as reponse to it. I wished to explain why Battlefield 2 necessitates dolphin diving within competitive play, and why a player should not be judged for refusing to handicap themselves. The game is at fault - not the player.

You point to my use of the grenade launcher, but completely fail to mention my use of the Assault Rifle and Carbine. I'm looking foward to the new patch, as I'll get to use them even more. My strategy will remain what it has been - to utilize the most effective tactics available within the game engine.

I use "dolphin diving" as an example to illustrate my point, and I can't help but think you give credence to my initial assumption - there are players certain in the moral superioty of their game ethic. They are unwilling to accept an opposing view, and seek to stifle it with contempt. Despite what you say, you fit into my categories perfectly.

"He is not a moral player." You are a moutpiece of the self-righteous moralist.

I came to this forum with a heartfelt wish to explain my perspective, but apparently that isn't acceptable.

Dissenting voices within the community are to be shouted down.

[HowieMandel]

Re: To the &quot;Moral&quot; Player

Yes, you are the bestest player in the entire universe.

Happy? Now go away.

[HowieMandel]

Re: To the &quot;Moral&quot; Player

ALSO............


Its sad that you actually believe that the highest scoring guy on a team was actually the main reason for that team winning. Explain how 50% of the time the guy with the highest score is on the losing team, then?

You really have no clue, or no idea on morality. Thus your post, original post is mute.

[LaGrenouille]

Re: To the &quot;Moral&quot; Player

not allowing players to jump and shoot is forcing infantry to use the 3 stances in the way they were originally designed to be used. Players that go prone have the biggest advantage, and now have an advantage over bunny hoppers too. That is the way we feel BF should play. I personally enjoy the dichotomy between BF and Quake in this regard

I completely agree with that.
Sure you can bunny hop or you can toob, or spawn rape, no one's going to stop you (exept dice hopefully), but by doing so you are ruining the fun of many players, just for your own (do you actually enjoy yourself, it's not even a challenge...). That's plain selfishness to me.
If you compare it to a soccer match, it's like if one player chose to play and win by kick ing the opposing team's members in the balls. Sure, you're winning, that's cool! But how fun is that for the ones who got their balls crushed??

Besides, when I'm sniping, I am really grateful towards the people who play decently and go prone in front of me when I'm spotted, they really do make my job easier...

[MIKEHUNT-UK]

Re: To the &quot;Moral&quot; Player

Ender,
It is apparent you are an adult with a mature attitude .. lest we forget the majority of the players that whine are simply children .. bad attitudes and all .. it is their insecurity within themselves that they show when they whine ... nothing more

And they probably suck at the game, if they can't win they bitch!

Bloody Kid's.

[bisley]

Re: To the &quot;Moral&quot; Player

Nice post fella !

[evilzucchini]

Re: To the &quot;Moral&quot; Player

I don't think I'm contradicting myself, I think I'm making a subtle argument that may escape most people

Obviously, "warping" and "dolphin-diving" are two vastly different exploits. I can imagine no league in which the first wouldn't be prohibited, and no league in which the second wouldn't be allowed.

I realize that you don't think you are contradicting yourself, that is why I put IMO. That is why I brought the whole "drawing the line of the intent of the programmers."

An exploit such as "warping" would eradicate any vestige of fun or tactical play, "dolphin-diving" does not do this. It arguably makes infantry vs. infantry combat more "twitch" oriented, but certainly less "tactical".

See? You are drawing a line. One thing in the engine was part of the programmers intent, another thing in the engine is not part of the programmer's intent. Remember, you are no more of an expert when it comes to the intent of the programmers than anyone else. Your own arguement lends itself handily to mine: Your opinion of what is an exploit of the system is no more or less valid than anyone else's opinion. So who are you to tell anyone that they can't say what you are doing is cheating?

I am sure there are plenty of "amoral" players who would take advatange of the warp thing if it were available. your enemy may not give you the same courtesy of not warping, so why should you do the same?

The situation you presented is drawn from an extreme circumstance, you know full well there's no way to reconcile it without making a concession.

Seriously, why? It is within the engine and it gives you an advantage to exploit it. It may be more extreme, but it is the same. You are, IMO, using the tools given to you the way they were not intended to be used. Remember, it is illegal to use this product in a manner inconsistent with it's label, according to the FDC.

This fix couldn't possibly take more than adjusting a small bit of code. That they were "rushed" is not a valid argument.

First, you have no idea what the code looks like so to say this would only require a little bit of code is pure assumption. On top of that, I covered this situation when I said that they may not have come up with a way to fix it without affecting something else that they did not want to affect.

I assert the next patch is based on community opinion because of the community update on EA's offical site.

They posted the SF forces news in that same section. I am sure that the "expansion" wasn't entirely based on community opinion.

Because dolphin-diving exists in the current game, it is a viable tacitc. Should I reduce the hitpoints of my plane before taking off because EA/DICE feels it has too many? Of course not.

You make a good point. However, they are quite different situations. Obviously, the intent of the programmer was to give the planes a certain amount of hit points. This is what you are talking about when you talk about an imbalance in the intent of the code and that people should go through the company to have it changed.

I would like to note that Raptor's post from the [DICE]Xavos proves my point that bunny hopping and dolphin diving were not the intent of the programmers.

But, really, our debate is pointless. We come to the same conclusion (it is pointless to bitch about other players) and that if people want the change they should go through the company and have the code changed.

That being siad, I once again commend you on the well-thought out post and the general keeping of your cool despite the fact that some of the people chose to attack you personally rather than your point.

[corrin79]

Re: To the &quot;Moral&quot; Player

[QUOTE=TAW_Ender
[COLOR=#65662a]There are three types of players within this community:[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#65662a]1. The first plays the game [I]as is. QUOTE]

I guess I fall into a fourth player category. I am the type of player that hates category 3 players aholes like yourself who use exploits to improve their standing. In this category, I quickly point out that there is a bunny hopping arsehole among us and ask the offender to stop. Next time I see it, I switch teams, plant some C4 under his a.ss and then blow the litte d.ick to smitherines. Yeah I lose 4 points, but I feel better for a minute.

[parish]

Re: To the &quot;Moral&quot; Player

I'm disturbed at the animosity expressed by some toward a player who intended only to voice his point of view. I didn't attempt to anger a single person. This will be my final post on this board.

Ender, do not flatter yourself. You're not worth my anger.

You pretend to know me from my stats, from my play on public servers, but know nothing about my play style within my unit. I'm an active leader within my clan, and share every tactic and strategy I've learned with my players.

Ah, but I do know your play style. Sharing cheap tactics does not justify them and teaching others to use them does not make you a team player.

With a jet, I've helped my team to win more games than someone with a teamwork score five times mine. But you don't get any teamwork points for that. In your attempt to attack and discredit me, you've revealed your simplistic understanding of the game.

You are correct. You do not get teamwork points for those because it's not considered teamwork by the creators of the game, hence the lack of team points for doing it. I apologize, but it would appear I have a better understanding of it than you sir.

You point to my use of the grenade launcher, but completely fail to mention my use of the Assault Rifle and Carbine. I'm looking foward to the new patch, as I'll get to use them even more. My strategy will remain what it has been - to utilize the most effective tactics available within the game engine.

I point to your use of the grande launcher as an example of the type of player you are. There is even a term for what you do called "n00b t00bing", you should do some research on that.

"He is not a moral player." You are a moutpiece of the self-righteous moralist.

Please step off your sopabox, you just tried to pass judgement on me you hypocrite. This also lends to the thought that your motives are one sided and your only concern is to be right in your own mind and not in the view of the majority.

This will be my final post on this board.

You won't be missed. Good day.

[BeerStein]

Re: To the &quot;Moral&quot; Player

I totally disagree with your premise. As a player, I most certainly have the right to comment on another player's gaming, especially if it has a negative effect on my (reasonable) enjoyment of the game.

You want a logical basis? Think about this: a multiplayer game must provide (reasonable) enjoyment for all its players. They are all invested in the game, not just you. If you do something that I and many others find unacceptable, then it is our right to comment and complain.

Perfect case in point: if I buy this game and log on and tk and tk and tk over and over, deliberately, then what would happen? Other players would call for my being booted. But wait, I say! Don't I have the right to play as I like? Nope, because my enjoyment does not take precedence over other players'. If enough players find my conduct disrupts their play, their right is greater than mine.

If you like to dive, fine -- do it with like-minded players on your own servers, no loss to anyone. But now that EA is apparently ruling that type of play is not allowed, it's disingenuous to go on about your "right" to do something that will be disallowed.

And by the way? If you're going to call for a cessation on attacks, you should attend to your own post. Phrases like "self-righteous" come to mind.

here here

amen

i second that notion

and so on. Well put - thank you for taking the words out of my mouth.