To the "Moral" Player

[LagunaLoire]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

You seem to be big on logic, and I agree with you on some points. Blatantly insulting someone (cussing, name-calling, etc.) because of how they play is immature. However, there is nothing wrong with criticizing YOU because of how you choose to play. YOU choose to use certain tactics, and therefore you are responsible for that choice and the prejudices it may bring against you.

As for realism vs. arcade, it's not black and white. There is a grey area. For example, BF2 isn't 100% realistic because you can take quite a few shots and still be running at someone full speed with perfect motor control. However, I wouldn't consider it 100% "arcade" either. There's no one cruising around on jetpacks, there's no quad-damage powerup. There is an effort to make you feel like you're in a war zone. And typically in war zones, people do not bunny hop, dolphin dive, or prone spam.

As many others have pointed out, these are not "features." I'm not sure I would call them exploits, but whether it was an "oversight" or whatever term you want to use for it, I don't think it was what the designers intended. You can argue that, but you can't say anything about the designers with any more certainty than I can.

And as a last remark, you blame others for being self-righteous, but your own posts are consumed by it.

[koggar]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

could you point me the direction to learn dolphin diving, prone jumping?

[big_sammy_b]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

people who complain aboput 'dolphin divers' and 'noob tubers' are NOT complaining about a lack of realism. They are complaining about a GAME INBALANCE.

The people who point this out are not the whiners, it seems to me its the thread starter whos the whiner and why?

Because Dice/EA have read what people have said about the game inbalances *noob tubers and dolphin divers) and have chosen to remove these abilities in the next patch.

So no the thread starter is actually the person whining because soon he lame cheating/exploiting tactics will no longer be possible and its a good thing too :)

[Kattspya]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

people who complain aboput 'dolphin divers' and 'noob tubers' are NOT complaining about a lack of realism. They are complaining about a GAME INBALANCE.

How the hell can it be a game imbalance if everyone is able to do it? There is no limit on bunny jumpers and grenade launchers. Get a grip FFS.

[NoseKi||s]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

It's the same thing in computer games and sports and business life etc. etc. etc. There are ppl that are willing to "play dirty" or "explore the game" as the 1st poster said; in some cases i think they are the same thing. There's even a small minority who are willing to "explore the game" enough to make a hack for it.

The thing is that i play for fun (as i think most of the ppl do) and then again all ppl have a different idea of what fun is.

The reason why i don't dolphin dive etc. is that i get no joy out of killing a guy by using what i consider "lame tactics". I'd rather kill 5 guys sneaking around with my mp5 than 50 dolphin diving with my AK. The same principle goes with sports.

I think it's ok to criticize any aspect of the game or a certain type of players that annoy you. That's (one of the things) what these formus are for. Just don't mention anyone by name. It can be constructive if you do it right. (just like u did Ender, just from an opposing point of view)

A fact is that i don't get anything concrete from playing BF2. I dont get paid and i don't get fancy prices. So I don't think it's worth it to **** off and get loathed by 100s of ppl daily just bcos i want some number on BF2S.com to increase.

I know how well i can play the game and looking at Enders stats gives me an idea of what i could be if i started to "explore the game". Not worth it.

1 thing i still don't get. We aren't allowed to criticize the ppl who dolphin dive etc. but they are allowed to criticize us for criticising??!

[big_sammy_b]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

How the hell can it be a game imbalance if everyone is able to do it? There is no limit on bunny jumpers and grenade launchers. Get a grip FFS.

Its a inbalance because not everyone goes as assault at the same time do they? Sure theres dolphin diving that everyone can do but its a exploit a way of taking advantage of a glitcvh in the game that was never intended, for thos ewho choose not to be so lame there is a inbalance and like i said EA/Dice have seen feedback from the community and are resolving it.

[Lt.Kris]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

lol, do you really think people give a **** about what you wrote? If they feel like bunny hopping or other stuff let it be, I do it, and im getting tired of these ****ing essays about how good you are if you dont bunny or use the GL or the posts about how only noobs bunny hop and crap which isnt true.

[NASTIE_BUTLER]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Read and learn "moral" players or.......scrubs as I now call them.

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlaytoWinPart0.htm

[Boojie]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Read and learn "moral" players or.......scrubs as I now call them.

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...toWinPart0.htm

Good article. And good site on game design.

But on this issue (the moral debate), you're missing the point. For some people, it is not the destination, it is the journey. Maybe they'll never make Gunny. Maybe they'll never get that veteran badge. Maybe they'll never get that coveted Navy Cross. But they want to have fun trying. They want a legit contest.

The other side of the debate partially sees this as a "f&ck em...I have to win...at all costs...to demonstrate I am the best....period." These are the same folks that put stats on their sig. These are the same folks that seek to tell us about the configs of their PC as if to say "my PC is better than yours".

One game. Two audiences. The more I play this, the more I'm thinking that BF2 should split into two games: the BF2 - mature and BF2 - immature. I dont see the two audiences as compatible. I dont see how one game can satisfy them both.

[=CKA= Noncog]

w00t

Hi Ender. Remember me? My apologies if the point I am about to raise has already been addressed. I confess that I have not read the entire thread (just the first few pages). I think that there's a problem of self-reflexive absurdity in your argument.

Your conclusion, if I read you correctly, is the following:

As a player, you have absolutely no right to criticize another a person's style of play.

Other elements of your post appear to be different expressions of the same conclusion, such as the following:

More importantly, no player has any right to tell me, or anyone else, what tactics I'm allowed to use.

Judge the tactic; judge the game, but never the player. To do so can only be described as juvenile.

A corollary to your argument leading to this conclusion is the following suggestion for the moderators:

I would then propose to the moderators of this forum that threads, which attack players for using legitimate tactics within the game engine, be instantly locked.

As the latter appears to follow from the former, it is your argument supporting the former proposition that I will critique. The way to go about critiquing an argument, of course, is to test the premises. So what are the premises that support your conclusion? I suppose that the following might qualify:

I challenge you to find one logical basis on which to tell ME how to play the game.

You seem to be saying that any given player does not have the right to criticize another player's style because there can be no logical basis for doing so. An implicit premise, therefore, is that one has the right to criticize someone only insofar as they can do so logically. However, you did not provide any support for this implicit premise, and it is far from self-evident. Insofar as this implicit premise remains unsupported, we needn't accept your conclusion nor its corollary.

This premise also prompts me to ask you on what logical basis you are forming your criticism of those that criticize the gameplay of others. Are you confident that you will be able to provide the sort of basic justification that those you criticize are unable to provide?

Again, my apologies if any of this is material already covered.

[qwero]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Let me outline a premise, which I have thought long and hard about:

As a player, you have absolutely no right to criticize another a person's style of play. You have every right to criticize a flawed game, but not how someone chooses to play it.

If you choose to abstain from bunny-hoping, or any other tactic that's labeled "unrealistic", within a game engine that was never intended for "realism", then BRAVO!

But please, keep your self-righteous indignation to yourself.

There are three types of players within this community:

1. The first plays the game as is. They may complain about a certain tactic, or a certain imbalance, but largely this sort of player could care less. This is perhaps the category into which the greatest number of players falls.

2. The second chooses to criticize the game for its lack of realism, not only making the questionable assumption that Battlefield was intended to be realistic, but also assuming that reality is a viable premise from which to base game design!

A minority of these players goes on to criticize others for using tactics such as "dolphin-diving" - as if the PLAYER is to blame the the DEVELOPER'S inclusion of what EA themselves labels a "feature"!

As is evident in these boards, some denounce and persecute them with almost religious fervency. At times, one can only smile at the hilarity of it all!

Ironically, what these gamers fail to realize is that with every negative post and negative comment they do nothing but breed contempt where it should not exist.

Their frustration is caused no one but themselves, and they are ultimately just as detrimental to the community as the players they criticize.

You are the "purist", the "moral" player.

3. But there are a third sort of player, those such as myself, who approach the game with an amoral eye. The competition player does not handicap himself, because he knows his opponent will show him no such courtesy. These players work to gain a competitive edge within the game, and are willing to use any tactic to achieve it.

I challenge you to find one logical basis on which to tell ME how to play the game.

(No, "realism" and your personal enjoyment don't count.)

Because there is no premise besides the two above-mentioned fallacies, I'll start with a simple outline of why Battlefield 2, in its current form, necessitates the use of dolphin diving for competitive play.

1. Weak, inaccurate weapons make the grenade launcher, rocket launcher, and C4 Frisbee often better at eliminating infantry than a standard rifle. (I have a 2:1 KDR with the Assault Rifle, which is likely more than 80% of players on this board. Don't bother me telling me I have poor aim.)

It just so happens that all of the above mentioned weapons are even more deadly when combined with dolphin diving. Any competitive player knows this.

Additionally, the above-mentioned weapons allow a single player to eliminate multiple targets. Either as a primary or secondary solution. With only a rifle, it is often impossible to quickly eliminate two targets at range due to bullet deviation.

2. Weak, ineffective anti-tank weapons make dolphin-diving invaluable to the player who wishes to evade or engage armored vehicles.

3. Players who take the AT kit often receive no points for destroying vehicles, and are at a liability at close range. Dolphin-diving at close range is the only way to effectively kill another play with the sub-machine gun.

As you see, the flaws within the game necessitate dolphin-diving. Players do not use it to "grief" you, they use it because it is the most effective tactic available to them within the game engine. If rifles were more effective, or the hit-detection simply less spotty, resorting to other tactics wouldn’t be as essential.

I for one am looking forward to the patch, as I too would like to see a slower, more tactically oriented game. I hate infantry combat in its current state, as I find the most satisfying kills come from the use of my rifle’s iron-sights. But as long as my opponent is able to use these tactics, it would be moronic to handicap myself.

More importantly, no player has any right to tell me, or anyone else, what tactics I'm allowed to use.

And, yes, the top clans WILL still be TOP once the game is patched. They're the best not because they bunny-hop, but because they're willing to explore the game without the pretension of the "purists".

Judge the tactic; judge the game, but never the player. To do so can only be described as juvenile. It creates only contempt and resentment within what should be an enjoyable pastime.

I would then propose to the moderators of this forum that threads, which attack players for using legitimate tactics within the game engine, be instantly locked.

Proper threads should focus on the flaw within the game, with suggestions as to how to fix them.

Feel free to comment, but I ask you show the same respect that I've tried to. I'm prone to frustration just as much as next player.

funny u took the time to type such a looooooooooong message and for the rest; perfect words (bit long though )

[Robes]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

People complain about these 'tactics' because it is abuse of the game engine. For instance on Dust in CS you could crawl up into the sky and then shoot people below without them seeing you, as this is within the limits of the game engine do these people also suggest that this is a worthy tactic?

These problems are just an unfortunate premise that occurs when you suddenly have hundreds of thousands of people playing a game. Some of this stuff will never get found by a play testing team

The fact that in the next patch much of these problems are being dealt with goes to show that they shouldn't be in the game in the first place, therefore they aren't legitimate tactics.

[Nihilist]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Read and learn "moral" players or.......scrubs as I now call them.

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...toWinPart0.htm

Way to miss the point...



Yes, you can play to win, like the site writer mentions, but it doesn't alter the fact that it's an underlying fault with the game design. One that's going to bite you hard once the patch kicks in. Then you'll need to start playing the game as it was designed... and then you'll be screwed.

[The_Pharoah]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

The other side of the debate partially sees this as a "f&ck em...I have to win...at all costs...to demonstrate I am the best....period." These are the same folks that put stats on their sig. These are the same folks that seek to tell us about the configs of their PC as if to say "my PC is better than yours".

One game. Two audiences. The more I play this, the more I'm thinking that BF2 should split into two games: the BF2 - mature and BF2 - immature. I dont see the two audiences as compatible. I dont see how one game can satisfy them both.

I heartily agree. What EA has done with the implementation of stats is suddenly drive players insane with trying to get the points. eg. where else do you see medics run INTO an artillery barrage? yep, just to get points.

The immature audience (which the original poster is part of regardless of actual age) is one of those players that aims to be 1st lieutenant or whatever. You know bunny hopping, etc isn't realistic; you know it gives you an unfair advantage; you know its not 'moral'; you know you're being an arrogant pr#ck just raising an argument over this, and yet you persist.

Its about playing fair. Yeah its a game...but it shows your attitude and maturity. It drives me nuts with frustration to empty a 30 round mag at full auto at point-blank range towards someone who is jumping/diving/proning/etc that doesn't get hit only to shoot me instead. You should be dead and you know it - fair and square. The devs wanted it in? b/s. You can't justify it. Point whorers will do all they can (even if they know its not fair) to get as many points as possible. This includes throwing C4, bunny-hopping, etc.

Until patch 1.2 comes out (please God let it be soon), I'm going to keep my frustrations in check. I'd like to see how the stats change post this patch. I've seen quite a few 'top players' (emphasized only because they have the most points) with spec ops stats of 1000 kills vs 300 deaths with the C4. Hmm...I wonder what that could be from!

[c4mstr]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

As a player, you have absolutely no right to criticize another a person's style of play. You have every right to criticize a flawed game, but not how someone chooses to play it.

etc..

So on this premise, it's okay to team stack because:
1) its the servers fault for allowing you
and
2) you cant say its unfair since according to you 'it ruined my enjoyment' is a irrelevent comment.

I agree with very small parts of what you said, but some parts are just ****ing rubbish.

I'd rather lose honourably than win at all costs.