To the "Moral" Player

[imported_The 13th Raptor]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Amen. Glad to see more posts from the real fans of the Battlefield Series. All to often are you shouted down by the vocal minority. The best players will always be the best players beceause they spend thier time playing.

You have no proof that "we", are the minority. People who play for fun are not inferior to those whom play to be the best.

[Veng3ance]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Hey Ender it's good to see you man, We need to play a game together one WITHOUT choppers.....LOL. Anyway it's Crow and I just wanted to say hi. :)

[Xiver]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Hello pot this is the kettle.... your black. What's really sad is that you probably apply the same logic in the real world.

One does not need to adobt a tactic to overcome it. Hop around all you want. You'll just die tired. Dive if you must you're going to be laying down anyway. Of course there are usually legitimate circumstances to use most tactics, but I always get a chuckle out of the guy that thinks that hopping around after I've shot him with my sniper rifle is going to keep him from getting shot again.

[Hu.Z_of_PLA]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

prone jumping and prone glitch (keep hitting the prone key) are glitchs, not features.

[Auto-ER-]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

prone jumping and prone glitch (keep hitting the prone key) are glitchs, not features.

More of an exploit, glitch would be me knifing someones feet hanging through a wall.

[TAW_Ender]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

prone jumping and prone glitch (keep hitting the prone key) are glitchs, not features.

Semantics. I find it hard to believe that even a developer as inept as DICE would release a game without knowing full well how the jump and prone systems could be exploited.

Their coders must have known it takes just as much time to crouch as it does to prone, and that both options were possible in the air. They must have known the jump height was comical.

"Glitch", no. Dolphin-diving has mushroomed into a full-blown game mechanic. A glitch is a short-lived fault in a system, such as the clipping error in Karkand that allows players to travel under the hotel.

I'd tend to believe it's a loophole that DICE was aware of, but grossly underestimated it's potential effectiveness.

There are certain game mechanics that a small, insulated group of play testers can't tweak on their own.

(They really oughta run betas of these games through leagues like CAL. Competition players will bring to light exploits faster than ANY playtester.)

I believe one of two attitudes was widespread among the BF2 play testers:

1. They were so averted to bunny-hoping that they believed no player would use it; they naively believed the BF2 community would simply "abstain".

2. They believed players would accept it as "part of the game".

Either way, a serious misjudgement was made. This new patch will attempt to correct it, based on the majority view of the community.

[imported_holysoldier05]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Its a good thing to read other people's opinion's ...and let it be said thats all they are "just opinions" but, the player who plays with integrity and skill and the player who looks for the exploits and cheats in the game makes all the difference in everone else's BF2 gaming experience! Which would you rather have on your team? I find while playing most of the time when not bothered by the profanity uttered or the team killer I see which player is worthy of spending my time playing the game at all ! I wish it were easier to keep a list of all those funky names (==#Jkjskjljs++ljskj)... most of the guys/gals are what I consider great players! BF2 Live on!

[TAW_Ender]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

You should probably stay out of the casino with that attitude, many players dont even visit the forums. Else this place would be a tad more packed then it is.
There are different types of fun to be had playing this game. It all depends on who you ask, but for people like myself, point black GL'ing and prone jumping takes away enjoyment, that is why we are ****ed.

Once more, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion of the game.

But in all honestly, there is no logical basis on which to criticize another player.

Your "enjoyment" is irrelevant. "Enjoyment" is a subjective experience, and can be very different from how I derive my "enjoyment" from Battlefield 2.

Admittedly, the majority of players probably take your attitude toward the game, albeit with less feverence - and the next patch takes this into consideration.

But that gives the majority no right to spread contempt - to create the continuous stream of malignant threads that damage this community.

[evilzucchini]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Personally, I don't give a damn how people play (now). So I really do fall into category 1. At first, when I sucked and I was really only frustrated with myself, I complained that other players cheated. However, I had an epiphany where I realized that I play the game for me and for fun so I shouldn't let other numbskulls ruin my fun.

That being said, I disagree with your premise (Although I applaud you for starting a real and well thought-out debate).

The problem is that the intent of the design is not always fully realized when the game is complete. Without having the thousands of people playing the game constantly, it is nearly impossible to discover all the imbalances and exploits in the game.

Certainly, I would hope, you would not condone someone hacking the code and giving themselves god like powers. These people exploit a hole in the code.

What about if you discovered a way to warp underground and shoot up through it to kill people simply by jumping and sprinting in a certain order that is not immediately obvious to all players? Do you think it would be okay to do this because it was in the game and everyone could do it? I would hope not because it is quite an exploit of the game.

I, personally, consider either of the above people to be cheaters. They are exploiting a hole in the game that was not meant to be there. Certainly it was not the intent of the programmers to allow people to give themselves god like powers or fall through the floor to gain an edge.

Now comes the sticky part, defining the intent of the programmers. . .

I know there is a fine line between the balance of realism and playability but undeniably this game was supposed to have a real type feel to it. Considering the bulk of FPS's out there are zero deviation on your shots and this game requires you to do certain things to minimize that deviation, I would be hard-pressed to say that they weren't going for some kind of realistic feel to it.

What I am driving at is that I doubt that the programmers, while designing this game, envisioned fields of soldiers jumping around and proning in the air only to fall down on the ground and then stand up and do it all over again. I don't think it is completely off the mark to say that this flies in the face of the intent of the programmers. Although, granted, I do not know. However, at the same time, if I were able to get underground, one could also argue that we do not know that the intent of the programmers was for this not to happen. However, in both cases, I think the answer is fairly obvious.

That being said, like any other situation where people take advantage of things the programmers didn't think about (such as hacking a way they didn't think about and thus didn't protect from exploiting a bug in their code) and go against the INTENT of the programmer, taking advantage of a hole in the game that flies in the face of the intent of the programmers can be considered a form of cheating and it is completely understandable why some people would be ****ed off about it.

That being said, I do think they have the right to bitch about people playing the game a way it was not intended as, like other exploits, it could be considered cheating. . . However, I do think they are really only frustrating themselves as it is a fact of life that people are going to take advantage of mistakes by the programmers and play the game in a way that gives them the best chance of winning (as you said).

Their best recourse, as you have noted, is to take aim at having the program itself fixed so that the intent of the programmers can be fully realized.

[JinxTH]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

To be honest i'd hate to see a match where everyone runs round like there playing UT2004.

Bunnyhopping doesn't seem to belong to this game. it belongs with UT2004, i hate bunnyhopping, i think dolphin diving looks Ridiculous and should be patched so it doesn't happen. No idea what prone-spamming is.

think most people with laugh if they were playing on wake island with america owning a base on one of the arms and as they approach it see all the attacking force jumping round as they advanced on each other, with half of them doing dolpin dives... crazyness.....

[imported_The 13th Raptor]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

At any given time there are more people playing the game then those complaining about it. I would even be willing to bet there are less people complaining about it than not out of the registered users on this forum. I never said anyone was inferior to anyone else. Since when is playing to be the best mean you can't have fun. To alot of people playing to be the best is fun.

You should probably stay out of the casino with that attitude, many players dont even visit the forums. Else this place would be a tad more packed then it is.
There are different types of fun to be had playing this game. It all depends on who you ask, but for people like myself, point black GL'ing and prone jumping takes away enjoyment, that is why we are ****ed.

[A_Dirty_Hippie]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

You should probably stay out of the casino with that attitude, many players dont even visit the forums. Else this place would be a tad more packed then it is.

Just in case I ever go to vegas. Please prove you are not the minority. If you were the majority, "this place would be a tad more packed than it is."

There are different types of fun to be had playing this game. It all depends on who you ask, but for people like myself, point black GL'ing and prone jumping takes away enjoyment, that is why we are ****ed.

The Battlefield series has always been arcade style. That is part of my enjoyment. Who do you think you are to demand the artist changes his art for you? You have no ground to stand on when you are provided tools, for free, to create the battlefield of your dreams on thier canvas. In other words go play a mod, and leave vanilla for those of us that enjoy it the way it is. I am not trying to say there is never any reason to request a change. I am saying that some things have to be accepted when playing an arcade style game. I bear you no ill will, it just seems as though our opinions differ on what BF was designed to be.
We have gone off topic a bit. It is not about the threads complaining about this or that, it is about the threads insulting those that use tactics that are provided within the game. Like the O.P. said, you can chose not do do those things but dont you dare look down on or personaly insult those that do. Afterall you are the ones that are not content with the current game and wish to impose your own vision on the rest of us.

[spartan915]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

I agree don’t condemn the player. Just play the way you want to play and let others play the way they want to. I don’t remember seeing a rule book when I bought the game that started that these different styles of playing weren’t allowed. If somebody dives and kills you, don’t complain about it; post on forums that it’s ruining the game. Seek them out on the battlefield and kill them. It’s a GAME people, stop taking it so seriously and have fun.

[Paas]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Wow. I actually don't have anyone to quote this time around. Odd.

Ok. I can understand the thread starters point, " Don't insult people who Hop, Dive, "Noob Tube" or whatever. Got it. Good.

Yet, I don't think most of the people who play this game actually "Insult" these people. Instead, we label them accordingly and go on with our gaming experience. (If you Bunny Hop, you're a Bunny. Dolphine Dive, you're a Dolphin... etc. etc.)

I, personally, Ban anyone who "Bunny Hops" or "Dolphin Dives" on my Unit's server. I don't allow it, I don't stand for it, and it completely destroys the feeling of "Squad Level Tactical" gameplay for my unit. I don't even warn people. I see them hop. They are gone, permentaly banned. I don't need to talk to them about it, I don't want to hear "I didn't know?! " etc. etc. Heck, I even have times when I wait until they have accumulated a nice score and THEN Ban them before the round is over; Classic!. Although, someone in mah' Unit does have to see it. We don't just take anyone's word for it. We need visual. Yet! Once we get visual. It's kinda "Rock Paper Scissors " for who gets to do the actual banning. Man... I can feel a tingle just thinking about banning someone. I think I'm gunna' go ban someone right after I'm through with this... but back on topic.

That aside though, you're right, people shouldn't insult others for exploiting whatever oppertunities are in the game to gain an advantage over their competition. No matter how silly it may look or how much it ticks off the rest of the server.

In all of this though I'm gunna' have to disagree that "Dolphin Diving" and "Bunny Hopping" are Features. I think they could be better thought of as Oversights. Dice/EA was obviously in a rush with this game and assumed the community would not instantly morph into a Rabbit/Jedi population. Yet, it did...

Furthermore. If EA/Dice at ANY point thought it was a valid feature they wouldn't be taking lengths to remove both actions. Heck, they would have just post up, " It's part of the game! Deal with it people! "... and left it at that. Instead, they are opting to change it because frankly they don't feel that it's right. Also it looks extremely silly for two soilders to come toe to toe and start bouncing around the screen with ZERO respect for gravity and momentum.

{WP}Paas

[WarGimp]

Re: To the "Moral" Player

Once more, my point is not that you aren't entitled to criticize the game, but you have no right to make remarks towards a player for employing tactics the game allows.

BS.
Following this line of logic means that no one should complain about cheats either.
That's an extreme preseption on the statment, but it had to be made to kick your legs out from under you.

Now, to get to the actual point;
The community has dubbed, en mass, certian behaviours to be exploits.
People have every right to put voice their distastes. If they don't, then no ajustments to mechanics will ever be made and the game will never evolve into something better.

However, I'm NOT a fan of the proposed changes. I don't think they do enough and are attacking the problems from the wrong direction. It's my observation that they have not thought out the impact of these changes enough.

If you want to stop bunnyhopping, the best way to do it is to ramp up the amount of stamina that it takes to jump AND require you to have enough stmina remaining in order to jump. There's never been a problem with jump-shots... there's a problem with repeatedly being able to jump.

As for prone jumping, it would be much more effective to put a timer on the initial prone command that doesn't allow you to stand (or jump) for a few seconds and apply a X4 deviation modifier while in the air. This way, you can still pull off a running dive for cover (which is exciting and FUN to do), but you cannot spam prone jumps. Once you hit the ground, you'll be stuck there long enough to counter the advantage of proning in the air.

I'm sad to say it, but the suggeted fixes have made me question the talent of Dice's mechanics design people.

Oh well... with luck, they'll figure it out before it's too late.