The core causes behind BF 2's jet situation.

[strikken]

Re: The core causes behind BF 2's jet situation.

Radar guided surface to air missles would even up the odds quite nicely. Taking the radar out of the planes would be flat un-realistic.

I'm not saying take radar out of airplanes, I'm saying restrict it so that planes are no longer all-seeing eyes in the sky that can view any and every manned object. Is it realistic that the planes' radar picks up only objects manned by an enemy player, instead of picking up every single vehicle - manned or not, moving or not, friendly or not - on the battlefield? No. Is it realistic that planes don't have to land to refuel or reload? No. Is it realistic that you can launch an M203 at the ground in front of you, kill two enemy soldiers and come away pretty much unscathed? No. This is an arcade-style shooter, not a realism mod. Some sacrifices to realism have to be made to better balance gameplay for all players.

But puting all that realism stuff aside, we have to be *realistic* in our suggestions for gameplay fixes. See, while radar guided missiles sure would be *nice*, they will never be implemented. NEVER. You can bitch and moan about it all you want, but EA/DICE are not going to completely rewrite the code of the game and every single map to add a new weapon system in. Tweaking the in-game radar inside jets is something that is doable (though also admittedly unlikely).

So let's review:

EA/DICE rewriting the game's source code and redoing every map ever released for the game to include radar-guided missiles: NOT POSSIBLE.

EA/DICE tweaking the code for jet radar and cockpit view: POSSIBLE.

Do the math.

[lee-uNIT]

Re: The core causes behind BF 2's jet situation.

First off, I'd like to comment on how ridiculously well-written the original post was. Very informative and conclusive.

I don't fly much, as I'm usually a ground pounder, so I tend to notice when air power gets a little too one-sided. Especially lately, it seems like it happens often on maps like Dalian and Gulf. Rounds where I could be out in the open traversing from flag to flag, and I get killed over and over by the same few jets flying figure-8s waiting to let their bombs fly.

Yes, rounds on BF2 should be determined by skill level. If one team has more skill than the other, that team should win. However if one teams has complete air domination and the other team is forced to use less-than perfect AA systems, it gets to be disappointing.

I am a supporter of the 'Make AA missiles smarter' club.

[AssaultSqdLdr]

Re: The core causes behind BF 2's jet situation.

It is not "AA" it is "SAMS" ....Anti air missles, fired from another airplane still work...

specicially it is SAMS or Suface to Air MIssles ....Fired from the ground to the air...that do not work anymore.


That much is perfectly clear.

[iddqd]

Re: The core causes behind BF 2's jet situation.

:shock:
Would you like a side of fries with your double helping of stupid comment?

The AA missiles are borked.
I recall firing at a hovering Blackhawk, first shot to get him to drop flares, wait till flares are gone, take second shot. What happend? The missile flys straight at the BH, then vears off at the last second. The pilot wasn't that bright and CONTINUED to hover. I managed a reload (wishing there was a bloody TOW handy), and fire off two more shots. No flares dropped, but the missiles again just desided that they weren't interested in tracking their target.

I swear, those missiles are the only things around with a lower attention span than certain posters around here.

So true!!

It has to do with the game's netcode more than anything else. Collision just doesn't work very well for things that move fast. Doubly so, if both objects move fast (i.e. missle and a plane).

Remember how in BF1942, firearms were quite useless? It's sort of the same problem here. Different, but still the same. Proximity fuse would fix a lot of things though. But then, ground AA would completely DESTROY choppers... so mabye they sould do proximity fuse for jets, but impact fuse for choppers?

[bitvomit]

Re: The core causes behind BF 2's jet situation.

guys, it's not just the AA's that are borked in terms of hitting jets/choppers that you get a lock on with, but also the missles from jets. i can't count how many times i've had perfect lock ons on noobs and launched all my missles only to see the missles actually clip straight through the other guys jet with no damage even when they don't release flares! i believe that DICE used the same code for AA and jet missles which causes both of them to be FUBAR'd.

[Blud]

Re: The core causes behind BF 2's jet situation.

A server side option to allow Admins to enable or disable jets--simple.
Bet ya we would see a lot of servers with 'no jets' enabled.

[WarGimp]

Re: The core causes behind BF 2's jet situation.

So true!!

It has to do with the game's netcode more than anything else. Collision just doesn't work very well for things that move fast. Doubly so, if both objects move fast (i.e. missle and a plane).

Remember how in BF1942, firearms were quite useless? It's sort of the same problem here. Different, but still the same. Proximity fuse would fix a lot of things though. But then, ground AA would completely DESTROY choppers... so mabye they sould do proximity fuse for jets, but impact fuse for choppers?

OMG! Someone has a firm grasp on the issue!
*gasp!*

Hehe, well, I don't think it would be practical at all to have two different kinds of hit detect going on for missiles. It would be a much more simple to make the AA missiles low damaging and have prox fuses, give the planes low armor, and keep the helos at high armour.

Again, this is actually a fairly good model of how things are in the real world as well as being a good fix. In real life, you are unlikely to survive a single sidwinder hit while in a plane, but in a heavy chopper you've got a much better chance of drawing your next few breaths.

I remember seeing some very interesting footage of Afganies bouncing Stingers off the side of Hinds without any real damage... until they scrapped the Stingers in favor of unguided anti-armor rockets. Then things got messy.

[imported_The 13th Raptor]

Re: The core causes behind BF 2's jet situation.

OMG! Someone has a firm grasp on the issue!
*gasp!*

Hehe, well, I don't think it would be practical at all to have two different kinds of hit detect going on for missiles. It would be a much more simple to make the AA missiles low damaging and have prox fuses, give the planes low armor, and keep the helos at high armour.

Again, this is actually a fairly good model of how things are in the real world as well as being a good fix. In real life, you are unlikely to survive a single sidwinder hit while in a plane, but in a heavy chopper you've got a much better chance of drawing your next few breaths.

I remember seeing some very interesting footage of Afganies bouncing Stingers off the side of Hinds without any real damage... until they scrapped the Stingers in favor of unguided anti-armor rockets. Then things got messy.

And here is me thinking stingers had prox fuses and warheads

[Habloc]

Re: The core causes behind BF 2's jet situation.

Meh. It's my belief that the fixing of the AA missiles will level this issue out. It's no secret that the logic on those missiles is borked.

I am having trouble understanding what the big deal is. I haven't had huge problems with aircraft... and I've seen some pilots do some amazing things! Still, fighters can't cap. They can't camp. They can't be reliable when it comes to support. They are random elements at best and not too hard to avoid (duck and cover folks! Find a roof to hide under!).

That said (here I go standing on the line again), air supiriourity does play a factor in the ultimat outcome of a battle. Even though you can't count on aricraft to take out the ground targets you need delt with, they can limit mobility by supressing helocopters and making ground armor afraid to move in the open.

Var has a point, but I think the evolution of the aircraft has been matched by the intended implementation of anti-air. It's unfortunat that someone made a boo-boo in their seeking math.

I guess you haven't defended a flag...

[Ghost-MOH-]

Re: The core causes behind BF 2's jet situation.

I do not think there has been an adequate enough job of updating the anti-air technology from BF42 through to BF2. I also think that the designers upped the killing potential of jets by too much. Taken singly, I don't think either of these would be something to complain as much as we do about - but add them both together and you get too lopsided of a situation. Think about it: If jets were kept the same as they are now, but there was a RELIABLE surface-to-air countermeasure against them, there would not be much complaining going on. The same if the ground-based AA was kept the same, but fighters were only given one bomb, or fighters' abililty to see ANY manned object from a distance via the HUD was taken away.

I don't think the current AA situation can be fixed in BF2. Maybe there's some code or something that cannot be worked around sufficiently to make Stingers a reliable weapon. I don't know. Hey, maybe it's just that the developers just don't want to spend the time fixing it. Either way, I think it's a lost cause on that front. However, I do think the situation could be salvaged (though in the process 90% of the regular jet pilots would be outraged). I believe that if you were to take away the jet's ability to see every manned vehicle or stationary position, and instead LIMIT this ability to only being able to detect armored vehicles (tanks, APCs, mobile AA), the situation could become more balanced. No longer would an enemy pilot be able to quickly look and see *exactly* which AA site you are using to try and shoot him down in; he would have to make a guess at it. If you wanted to move troops in a Humvee or Vodnik, you could do so without being immediately lit up as a fast-moving square and easy target for a bomber. In addition to this, I'd like to see the ability to change views and eliminate the cockpit from view to be done away with, for both jets and helicopters. Tanks and APCs can't arbitrarily turn off their cockpit views, so why should airborn units be able to? These two changes, to the radar and cockpit view, would substantially change the way jet (and helicopter to a certain extent) pilots go about their business. Great pilots would still be great - but they would have a less likely chance of being completely invincible in the air.

Actually, there is a code that makes stingers and such a reliable weapon. It was done by a modder. http://www.totalbf2.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36102
So basically it has been done already. These babies follow your aircraft around no matter what.

EDIT: Forgot to add that these are air to air missles. If it can be done on these things it can probably be done for ground anti air missles.

[ICPO]

Re: The core causes behind BF 2's jet situation.

I guess you haven't defended a flag...

Obviously not. You can't ever count on those. I rather try and use a .50 cal. on a jet then the actual AA emplacements.

[Thunderbolt]

Re: The core causes behind BF 2's jet situation.

:shock:
Would you like a side of fries with your double helping of stupid comment?

ROFL

We need Patriot Missiles. The new ones are cool I hear. I even think they have a proximity fuse in the Patriot IIs.

OMG! Someone has a firm grasp on the issue!
*gasp!*

Hehe, well, I don't think it would be practical at all to have two different kinds of hit detect going on for missiles. It would be a much more simple to make the AA missiles low damaging and have prox fuses, give the planes low armor, and keep the helos at high armour.

Again, this is actually a fairly good model of how things are in the real world as well as being a good fix. In real life, you are unlikely to survive a single sidwinder hit while in a plane, but in a heavy chopper you've got a much better chance of drawing your next few breaths.

I remember seeing some very interesting footage of Afganies bouncing Stingers off the side of Hinds without any real damage... until they scrapped the Stingers in favor of unguided anti-armor rockets. Then things got messy.

Those Hinds are F'ing HUGE. No wonder they were able to hit one with an unguided AT rocket...

[DarkHorse2160]

Re: The core causes behind BF 2's jet situation.

Being primarily a utulity chopper pilot who's been kept on the deck far to often by UCP/spawn camping jets (yes, they can and do camp), I fully support a few of the ideas here (mainly tweaking armor on aircraft and AA accuracy). I fully expect that the developers will address one or both of these issues in the future, but in the meantime I think we could help ourselves by actually playing the game as a combined arms team and using the air assets for their intended purposes.

1. Jets should focus on downing/suppressing enemy jets, enemy attack helos and enemy armor, in that order.

Yeah, this means they shouldn't be bombing the s**t out of the enemy UCP/spawn while their jets do the same to yours, unless they've taken care of the other priorities. Besides, if the AA were worth a damn, they'd never make it that far!

2. Attack helos should focus on downing/suppressing enemy attack helos, enemy armor and hard targets or troop concentrations, in that order.

Yeah, this means they shouldn't be helping the jets bomb the s**t out of the enemy UCP/spawn, raping/capping flags or blowing up armor while the enemy's attack helos are doing the same, unless they've taken care of the other priorities.

3. Utility choppers should focus on troop transport by safely delivering as many "boots on the ground" as possible to where they're needed as quickly as possible. Then go back and do it again.

I know it'll never happen and a lot of people are gonna flame me, but it's just my idea of what a perfect game of Battlefield would be.

I think if people followed these guidelines, EVERYONE would have a more enjoyable experience. The jet jockeys would be constantly dueling with, observing and learning from their opponents. Same goes for attack helo pilots and gunners. The utility chopper pilots would actually get a few minutes peace from that friggin alarm go'in off, and the ground troops would actually get to where they need to be and face off againt their enemy counterparts.

P.S. Yes, I do realize that as long as there's a rank and points system, there's always gonna be the point/stat whores that'll continue to ruin the game for others.

Flame away!

[imported_The 13th Raptor]

Re: The core causes behind BF 2's jet situation.

I agree but you are wrong on one thing..

Helicopters should not focus on taking down other helcopters, they are poorly equipped for the role, you are pretty much safe from other helicopters unless you are the kind of pilot that hovers near a spawn to let the gunner rack up the kills.. Jets and AA should deal with helicopters.

[AssaultSqdLdr]

Re: The core causes behind BF 2's jet situation.

Sams Do Not Work.