Sense of Entitlement on these Forums...

[GunHappyBob]

Re: Sense of Entitlement on these Forums...

Console Nubs for the lose. But it doesn't matter, I'll be forced to play on console anyway.

[Lordsethonan]

Re: Sense of Entitlement on these Forums...

A sense of entitlement, interesting concept. As I have,and will purchase games from EA/DICE, I suppose I can give an opinion because I have paid my money and have the right to express my views. However, I may not agree with the company, whether I buy the game or not is strictly my choice. Not because it might be a 'port' to PC, or because it doen't have pRoN, its becuase I enjoy playing the game. Period.
I realise that in todays market, you have to sell the most to the greatest number, or you donot survive. Consoles make up a very large segment of this market, and in order to survive, thats where customers are. I doubt any company could survive just in the PC market alone.
This game will succeed because its a good game. A lot of us PC Gamers will enjoy it because it does have server capabilities. The SP portion looks good too.
Then again, having a beta to play with helped make my decision. Maybe EA/ DICE were listening after all.

Yes, I won't tire of stressing it enough: For a DICE title released on PC, compared against the previous releases on launch date, BC2 is astonishingly well developed even if it doesn't cather to your particular playstyle. I passed on BC1 multiplayer because it didn't feel like a BFgame, it was not consolish, not unpolished, it wasn't the netcode or anything, it just didn't FEEL battlefieldish; this one does, and it's almost perfect on console, read: It feels like a BF game on consoles, and it's pretty awesome on PC.
Anybody who went through the BF 2 and 2142 betas can attest to this, DICE has stepped up to the game, they have improved a whole lot in a very short ammount of time, you have to be in denial to state that this new engine doesn't show any improvement over the refractor engine.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Sense of Entitlement on these Forums...

It has a well established definition, regardless of the unwashed gaming hordes failed attempts at wielding the English language.
No offense intended

I like it when you still pursue in calling every critical point of of view some names which would discredit them for reasons which do not exist. I like BF2 more, so I have to be a disgruntled fanboy. Fascinating logic.

Back when 2007 came out and I posted a lenghty analysis on why the gunships sucked and why the potential was lost in creating these neutered, castrated flying boxes of humour, and wrote a long suggestion list on how VTOL-s in modern games really should be made, the concept was way over most BF2142 players heads. So the thread quickly regressed into "ure just pissed bcuz u cant pwn in jets anymore". There are cases where change is associated with intellect. In videogame community, its not that simple.

[Lordsethonan]

Re: Sense of Entitlement on these Forums...

Ah yes; I recall that thread. We argued over balance of the things; and in the end they became unbalanced because of the homing rockets not working against one of the vtols like they should.

But look; this is where the subjective perception of things gets in the way. While if confronted directly against each other, Vtols would lose miserably vs the choppers in BF2; in their own game they are well capable and easy to use.
And I'll tell you what I still believe: If they fixed aintiair, and troops had more options to fight against air vehicles; the fact that they can perform maneuvers that defy all logic and physics wouldn't be so bad; since you'd get a fighting chance against them; air dominates in BF2 not so much because pilots are awesome and uber, but because they have no real threat and pose a low risk vs big reward style of playing.
V-TOLS follow a different design, you always campaigned to turn them into a copy of BF2 choppers, we are now almost 4 years into BF2142, and from the last rounds I have played, people have learned to maneuver them in ways that no one imagined they could at launch.

So rephrase your statements; they are not castrated dumbed down machines, they have a different design, with a different role in the game; that is not tailored to your needs/desires; and that's an entirely different debate.

Samewise; the apache in BC2 is not meant to be a stunt-pulling dominance ordinance of death, and you can only pull that off against very newbie players; long time BFers know best than to ignore the 50 mm flying machine gun of lead pez dispenser, and focus a BIT on it, blow it down, and resume the mayhem; the chopper is fulfilling yet another different role, that is not showing off you have a joystick; it's a TOOL to provide support from the air to your ground troops.

I thought I read you referencing RE4 in some other post, and I guess it's safe to assume you are a RE fan from your nickname; let's put it this way then:

RE4 was not by any means a traditional, RE game. Did that make it a bad game? No, in my opinion; it made it a different RE game along the lines of Gun Survivor. It definetively wasn't a survivor horror game, but it was far from a bad game by itself.

Same with BF2142 and BC2; are they traditional BFgames? (and traditional here reads nowadays like, is it a carbon copy of BF2?) No, some of us are thankful for that, some others are pissed. But are they BAD games? They just follow a different design philosophy, in line with what the develoepr wants from the game. Sometimes it doesn't please us as players, MGS comes to mind as a title where the developer does whatever he wants, and in the end it doesn't damage the final product much; but in the end, they don't owe players anything, except a quality product that works.
Pandering to the fanbase has never worked in the long run, as th emore the developer gives, the more that is demanded; until it reaches a point where everybody is pleased but no one is happy (like WoW) .

[stilla-killa]

Re: Sense of Entitlement on these Forums...

Ah yes; I recall that thread. We argued over balance of the things; and in the end they became unbalanced because of the homing rockets not working against one of the vtols like they should.

But look; this is where the subjective perception of things gets in the way. While if confronted directly against each other, Vtols would lose miserably vs the choppers in BF2; in their own game they are well capable and easy to use.
And I'll tell you what I still believe: If they fixed aintiair, and troops had more options to fight against air vehicles; the fact that they can perform maneuvers that defy all logic and physics wouldn't be so bad; since you'd get a fighting chance against them; air dominates in BF2 not so much because pilots are awesome and uber, but because they have no real threat and pose a low risk vs big reward style of playing.
V-TOLS follow a different design, you always campaigned to turn them into a copy of BF2 choppers, we are now almost 4 years into BF2142, and from the last rounds I have played, people have learned to maneuver them in ways that no one imagined they could at launch.

So rephrase your statements; they are not castrated dumbed down machines, they have a different design, with a different role in the game; that is not tailored to your needs/desires; and that's an entirely different debate.

Samewise; the apache in BC2 is not meant to be a stunt-pulling dominance ordinance of death, and you can only pull that off against very newbie players; long time BFers know best than to ignore the 50 mm flying machine gun of lead pez dispenser, and focus a BIT on it, blow it down, and resume the mayhem; the chopper is fulfilling yet another different role, that is not showing off you have a joystick; it's a TOOL to provide support from the air to your ground troops.

I thought I read you referencing RE4 in some other post, and I guess it's safe to assume you are a RE fan from your nickname; let's put it this way then:

RE4 was not by any means a traditional, RE game. Did that make it a bad game? No, in my opinion; it made it a different RE game along the lines of Gun Survivor. It definetively wasn't a survivor horror game, but it was far from a bad game by itself.

Same with BF2142 and BC2; are they traditional BFgames? (and traditional here reads nowadays like, is it a carbon copy of BF2?) No, some of us are thankful for that, some others are pissed. But are they BAD games? They just follow a different design philosophy, in line with what the develoepr wants from the game. Sometimes it doesn't please us as players, MGS comes to mind as a title where the developer does whatever he wants, and in the end it doesn't damage the final product much; but in the end, they don't owe players anything, except a quality product that works.
Pandering to the fanbase has never worked in the long run, as th emore the developer gives, the more that is demanded; until it reaches a point where everybody is pleased but no one is happy (like WoW) .

Wow you actually took time to post all that? Where are my reading glasses.

[Lordsethonan]

Re: Sense of Entitlement on these Forums...

I'm not here to bait and flame, I like debating. I was registered here when it was totalbf2.com and I was really active during BF2 and around the beta and launch periods for 2142; V-TOLs were a hot topic and we pretty much agreed to disagree on that. And 2142 turned out to be a great game with bugs, but it improved a lot between closed to open beta, then to the demo and final release.

I think the only real major plroblems left are punkbuster disconnects and server lag when you move the titan; MOST, not all of the problems were solved, but you need to actively provoke the glitches as of lately; and the others we all know they won't get fixed soon or fast because DICE is working on BC2; like the vtols unbalance, the still glitchy titan walls, and some geometry problems that only real lamers take advantage of.

I don't know if Chris had the same nick from before, and even tough I can't pinpoint him exactly, I know he debates too; and in the end that's the reason forums like this exist, to confront ideas and opinions. When you do it in a civilized manner it's fun

[Minmaster]

Re: Sense of Entitlement on these Forums...

i don't get it chris, it sounds like you're an aircraft whore, but should they make the game around your type of players who are probably less than 5% of the BF gamers? i can understand the game somewhat took a step backwards in therms of air combat in 2142 from your POV but everyone other than the aircraft whores welcomed the changes and it was GOOD for the game. upsetting a tiny section of the BF demographic is obviously worth it if it improves the gaming experience for everyone else, no? it's undeniably fun going 100-0 in your aircraft, but what about for everyone else? i can understand the game being no good for you because of the aircraft combat changes from BF2, but the 2142's gunships are still powerful if mastered and can be equally devastating as any aircraft from BF2 (as long as you're in a talon and not the doragon ).

[stilla-killa]

Re: Sense of Entitlement on these Forums...

Aircraft's in BF2 were the reason I stopped playing air maps. Just like Minmaster said above, it's fun as hell when your the pilot but not so fun being the one on the receiving end. Plus I am more a ground and pound type of guy instead of a pilot.

[Nicfurious29]

Re: Sense of Entitlement on these Forums...

Same with BF2142 and BC2; are they traditional BFgames? (and traditional here reads nowadays like, is it a carbon copy of BF2?) No, some of us are thankful for that, some others are pissed. But are they BAD games? They just follow a different design philosophy, in line with what the develoepr wants from the game. Sometimes it doesn't please us as players, MGS comes to mind as a title where the developer does whatever he wants, and in the end it doesn't damage the final product much; but in the end, they don't owe players anything, except a quality product that works.
Pandering to the fanbase has never worked in the long run, as th emore the developer gives, the more that is demanded; until it reaches a point where everybody is pleased but no one is happy (like WoW) .

That was very well written. Thanks for the read.

[Minmaster]

Re: Sense of Entitlement on these Forums...

Aircraft's in BF2 were the reason I stopped playing air maps. Just like Minmaster said above, it's fun as hell when your the pilot but not so fun being the one on the receiving end. Plus I am more a ground and pound type of guy instead of a pilot.

me too... i just never invested time in BF2 aircrafts to be any good, but it was too demoralizing to be on the ground. it was either play these maps and get air raped or play IO maps like karkand and face infantry spam which i couldn't take anymore of.

[Kingkat54]

Re: Sense of Entitlement on these Forums...

me too... i just never invested time in BF2 aircrafts to be any good, but it was too demoralizing to be on the ground. it was either play these maps and get air raped or play IO maps like karkand and face infantry spam which i couldn't take anymore of.

Same here. I never had time to learn to fly, so the game got less and less fun to play. I have enjoyed BFBC2 and just with the choppers its not so bad. I don't miss planes and jets.
However, this game may have found the right balance. Just enough vehicles and stuff to make play varied and interesting. As long as I have a wep that can take down aircraft, or a 'can-opener' for armor, it'll be good.
Maybe as some of you have stated, this may NOT be a typical BF type game, I don't know. But the game rocks and this year there is the new MOH game.Maybe DICE/EA can have the best of both worlds. Typical all-out-flying-armored-up military fps (like BF) and a slight;y different version like BFBC2 and MOH. With, I might add, PC Dedicated Server support. There is a God in heaven.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Sense of Entitlement on these Forums...

Ah yes; I recall that thread. We argued over balance of the things; and in the end they became unbalanced because of the homing rockets not working against one of the vtols like they should.

I dont think you recall that thread, because-

you always campaigned to turn them into a copy of BF2 choppers, we are now almost 4 years into BF2142, and from the last rounds I have played, people have learned to maneuver them in ways that no one imagined they could at launch.

I have never, ever wanted VTOLs to turn into choppers. I used an example from a design choice from "Dropship: United Peace Force", where a VTOL had two completely separate functions. Independant control for engines and the position of the body for acting as a gunship, and a jet mode which would make the VTOL act like a traditional jet, and a mode switch option between the two at stall speeds. Its very technical, but in the end it would add depth, options and freedom of use (basically, tonload of fun). Instead, the VTOLs were extremely limiting in their movement, limited the players and the only fun in using them came from being able to become good enough to get a good ammount of kills in it. Thats pretty much what the vehicles have been about post BF2. Balanced for kills, not for fun. I had a huge problem with patch 1.2, for a large number of reasons, but I never stopped pursuing balance.

So rephrase your statements; they are not castrated dumbed down machines, they have a different design, with a different role in the game; that is not tailored to your needs/desires; and that's an entirely different debate.

Why should I rephraze a statement with which every vehicle player in the franchise would agree with. I asked this question twice, Im asking it the third time- do you see any "vehicular specialists" from TBF2 moving on to BF2142? Have any of them returned for BFBC2 to these forums?

Samewise; the apache in BC2 is not meant to be a stunt-pulling dominance ordinance of death

Stunt pulling and dominance are two completely separate things. You seem to believe that the ability to move and maneuver the vehicles with reality-defying properties is what broke the balance. That is not true, period. The simple fact is that a guy on the ground with 5 minutes worth of experience with an anti-air kit should not be able to take a vehicular player who has sunk more than 100 hours into his craftsmanship down in a head-on fight. Which is why its universally agreed that BF1942 had the best balance between skill and potential when it came to STA. Point of Existence 2 mod solved this rather well too.

RE4 was not by any means a traditional, RE game. Did that make it a bad game? No, in my opinion; it made it a different RE game along the lines of Gun Survivor. It definetively wasn't a survivor horror game, but it was far from a bad game by itself.

So youre pretty much saying that because it was a fun game and sold millions of copies, it was a perfectly fine move for CAPCOM? If you have absolutely no regard for an established fanbase of a franchise, then our discussion will lead nowhere. Youll take any game if its even remotely fun. When I expect a game based on its prequels, I expect it for certain reasons.

Same with BF2142 and BC2; are they traditional BFgames? (and traditional here reads nowadays like, is it a carbon copy of BF2?) No, some of us are thankful for that, some others are pissed. But are they BAD games? They just follow a different design philosophy, in line with what the develoepr wants from the game.

Except that if youve been in the community for long enough, youd know that the design choices have been made to cater to one single group, while the games are still being marketed as full-Battlefield-vehicular-experience. You dont see a flaw here? An infantry player, ever since I joined TBF2, has always expressed himself as a person who would rather DICE to change the game, than change his kit, tactics and mentality. Many of us have been supportive to the idea that when a grunt faces a vehicle, he dies, simply because a vehicle is a balance tipper. However taking one out would also have its rewards. Sensible solutions have never been in the vocabulary of a person who just cant adapt.

Sometimes it doesn't please us as players, MGS comes to mind as a title where the developer does whatever he wants, and in the end it doesn't damage the final product much; but in the end, they don't owe players anything, except a quality product that works.

How many MGS games have you played and how much of a fan (if at all) do you consider yourself to be of that particular franchise? MGS has always, always progressed by staying true to its roots and only using technical advancements to enhance that particular "Tactical Espionage Action" style. It has never been about Kojima doing whatever he wants. Youre describing CAPCOM, with its wide array of canonical, yet completely different, in genre, games. Not Konami.

Pandering to the fanbase has never worked in the long run, as th emore the developer gives, the more that is demanded; until it reaches a point where everybody is pleased but no one is happy (like WoW) .

MGS, COD (up to MW2), Ace Combat, Twisted Metal (excluding the different titles with change of studios), many, many more. You say its impossible? I say you expect way too little.

Minmaster, dont presume to know what I like or what Ive played. While you were busy playing on ranked servers, I played on modded and unranked ones where we didnt have problems like J10 vs F35B, or a puny Stinger launcher in the uncap. I did just as much groundpounding as I played in the air. I can say that during the time I religiously played BF2, I mastered pretty much every aspect of it. Having had a ton of conversations, debates and heated arguments with fans of every part of the game, while playing through all of those parts, I can say I have a pretty good understanding of the games flaws, how broken it was and how those issues could have been overcome. I was known as an "airwhore" because it was my favourite part in the game, but my ground/vehicular time spent certainly wasnt as inbalanced as yours.

The way I see it, if you jump in a vehicle, it shouldnt just make you a bigger target. It should make you into a force which is actively shaping the game. There are plenty of ways to balance the force differences out, but certainly not by making a soldier equal to a tank (unless the tanker hopped in for the first time in his life, and the soldier is an experienced player). Furthermore, and thats the most important part. Vehicles need to be fun to use. Speed maneuverability potential, weapons which make you feel like a real badass, if you sit into even a buggy, you should feel fully immersed. BF2142 biggest selling vehicle, the Walker, failed to deliver that. In BFBC2, it looks like its the same deal. On the food chain, an infantry player should be the lowest worm. And Im not saying it because I enjoyed getting "100:0" runs, but because it creates immersion. It certainly did for me. Still does.

If BF2 played like POE2 from day one, but still had its old maps (and guided rockets for the AT kit), the only bickering you would hear, ever, would be pilots b!tching about their jets. The whole "BF infantry combat is retarded compared to COD" arguments wouldnt exist. Many of the actually reasonable suggestions by long time BF fans who understood the necessity for the overall combat scale and how the power shifts from vehicle to vehicle, made it into that mod.

Im not trying to be elitist and unreasonable. I know full well how it can piss you off if youre fighting for a flag and get just shot to pieces by a Su which is left alone by your teams air force, currently engaged in "enemy asset supression" at the enemies uncap. Fact of the matter is, the solution was never and has never been to make VTOLs which shoot jellybeans and flew like aerial trains. Tactical Gamer community has made numerous videos demonstrating just how well you can supress all of the enemies air power with a dedicated squad. Yet the vehicles in that mod are just as powerful, badass and balance-tipping potential if you sink hours and hours into them. Its all about proper balance design, not neutering.
It looks to me like this is slowly turning into a perceived vehicle whore vs infantry player argument, its fine, but dont bring in excuses of rape from a game which was fixed completely without turning it into a COD wannabe with vehicles from Super Mario Kart Racing.

---------- Post added at 12:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:46 AM ----------

me too... i just never invested time in BF2 aircrafts to be any good, but it was too demoralizing to be on the ground. it was either play these maps and get air raped or play IO maps like karkand and face infantry spam which i couldn't take anymore of.

Yeah... yeah... OK.

[The_Eliminator]

Re: Sense of Entitlement on these Forums...

How has this thread got this far?

[jake_]

Re: Sense of Entitlement on these Forums...

How has this thread got this far?

I don't know. I figured it would be locked a long time ago or people would move on.

I've had my way with it and am done with it now.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Sense of Entitlement on these Forums...

Whats wrong with the thread? I used to remember times when the forums were full of content and I never stepped a foot to OT.