Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Unlock advice

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Sugarbear(SID)
    Dumbest, most completely innacurate and pointless reply to a thread EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    QFP

    Forever...
    Sorry for being innacurate(?)

    Realistically only around 9 out 10 players use the voss, based on my scientific research studying the kill screen, i have statistically concluded that every tenth kill will be by pk rockets thus giving me the exact percentage of 90%.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by cyan View Post
      Jesus dude, the amount of people using the gun has no bearing whatsoever. the numbers i posted are kills per player. if 4 trillion people were using it wouldn't matter, as, on average, it generates 30-50% more kills per player. not total.

      If you can't see that the #1 vosser has 33% more kills than the #1 Baur user, I can't make it any simpler. The gun is more powerful, all things considered, than the Baur, and it has gained a reputation as a Noob gun for the fact that it is easier to kill with. end of discussion.

      If you'd like a real world example of this, look at the leaderboards for the two sniper rifles. No one is arguing that one is better than the other, and whaddayaknow, the leaderboard for both rifles looks almost identical. (Because they are pretty damn close).

      You can argue that the Voss isn't a newbie gun all you like, but the numbers generated by a quarter-million players would prove you incorrect...and they can argue alot more strongly than can I.



      In the other half of the weapon stats: Rate of Fire and Clip size. You conveniently left out the two statistics that don't suit your argument.

      If all weapons were judged solely on damage dealt per shot and lowest deviation, everyone would be charging into close-quarters firefights with their Zellers out.

      Obviously, the Voss' two strengths are the two you omitted.

      I think you may be forgetting an important statistic, which is time used with the certain gun.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by pilvlp View Post
        I think you may be forgetting an important statistic, which is time used with the certain gun.
        I thought of that, but since they are both unlocks in the same kit, at the same point in the tree, one would think that anyone using the assault kit would use either the Voss or the Baur at all times. (Of course, some players stick to the Krylov/SCAR) but those who have sided with one of the two unlocks tend to stick with it. So, playtime should be awfully close with both guns.

        However, you brought it up, so I feel obligated to dig deeper. The goal: determine the kill-per-minute stats of the Voss and Baur, to determine if the Voss is, as I hypothesised, easier to kill with. I think an Excel nerd-out is forthcoming. I'll get back to you... :salute:

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by cyan View Post
          I thought of that, but since they are both unlocks in the same kit, at the same point in the tree, one would think that anyone using the assault kit would use either the Voss or the Baur at all times. (Of course, some players stick to the Krylov/SCAR) but those who have sided with one of the two unlocks tend to stick with it. So, playtime should be awfully close with both guns.

          However, you brought it up, so I feel obligated to dig deeper. The goal: determine the kill-per-minute stats of the Voss and Baur, to determine if the Voss is, as I hypothesised, easier to kill with. I think an Excel nerd-out is forthcoming. I'll get back to you... :salute:
          Hey, I'm a statical freak as well. I'll be waiting for the results.

          Comment


          • #35
            I've never even seen 50% of people using the voss, and the only way you would ever be able to tell, is at the end of the round, and ONLY if you were using the voss.

            it's pretty sad that you hopped on the "hate the voss" bandwagon with all the other whiners who get wiped out by it. The only reason you're complaining is because you get beat by players that are better than you, and some of them happen to be using the voss.

            Why don't you look at the actual research, the voss is statistically one of the worst guns in the game, it does less damage than the stock rifles, and has a higher bullet deviation. Personally, If I was getting owned by a less powerful, less accurate weapon I wouldn't be telling everyone on a forum.

            no seriously, QFP.

            Comment


            • #36
              You really believe that just because a gun is statistically inferior to other guns means that less people use it? Why don't you mention how its high rate of fire more than compensates for its lack of punch. Despite its higher deviation, have you noticed that the map design for the usually favourite maps in the game are made so that most infantry combat happens within medium and close ranges? The inaccuracy brought about by its higher deviation sort of makes it pointless to bring up. Furthermore, the crouch + scope + burst fire means you can turn that measly 20ish damage into 40+ damage when your gun is accurate enough to score headshots with from seemingly obscene ranges for a "light assault rifle." And you don't even need to aim at the head. Just control your recoil to guide your aim up for you. One more thing I could add is how easy it is to use so that a moderately skilled player can pick it up and get a decent amount of kills with. But in the hands of the highly skilled player, they become nigh untouchable to other infantry. Have a squad of these vossers with abit of teamwork mixed in and you get the whole opposing team whining about how they are being mopped up by them.

              Don't take my word for it. Fire some practice shots at the titan forcefield, using the scope rangefinder to help measure the distance and see the bullets hitting the forcefield to get a rough idea how accurate the voss is.


              Voss disecting asides. Assault Medic is a good start for new soldiers since they form the backbone of most games. Get the hub upgrade, the herzog for the spare slot perhaps, and put the rest into infantry upgrades. But if you feel like you want more weapons to deal with any enemy from any range, go for the rockets and have both the gun addons slotted in. Most assaults carry the rocket + defib with them anyway so there shouldn't be much of a shortage if you don't carry one as well. Then you can put the rest into grenades and stamina upgrades. You may not be able to revive, but don't forget you can still heal and offer some medic support.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Sugarbear(SID) View Post
                it's pretty sad that you hopped on the "hate the voss" bandwagon with all the other whiners who get wiped out by it. The only reason you're complaining is because you get beat by players that are better than you, and some of them happen to be using the voss.
                :shakehead Don't want to seem like a cocky bastard, so I sent you a pm instead, as a response to your comment about getting "wiped out" by Vossers. The gist of it this: with my SPM and Baur rankings being what they are, there are only a handful of Voss users in the world who outscore me...and I only remember ever facing one or two of them in a match: Cpt.Needa and WNx-B46.

                There's certainly not enough of them out there to make me hate the gun for that reason alone. I'd have much more reason to hate commanders, vehicle-whores, and explosives-spammers. Only 1100 people score better than I, and at least the top 100-200 of those are hacking and/or padding (SPMs of 10.00 or more???), that leaves about 900 people that legitimately outscore me...how many of those use the Voss as their primary death-dealer? probably less than 75. The rest are using Tanks/APCs/Walkers/RDX, other firearms, or are commanding.

                I only hate the Voss because I feel dirty when I play with it...Like Van Damme in Timecop using automatic weapons in the civil war.

                Originally posted by pilvlp View Post
                Hey, I'm a statical freak as well. I'll be waiting for the results.
                well...here they are. the usage and kill statistics for the top-17 users with both guns, including a graph with trendline showing the average of the entire group. The results show, as you guessed, greater time usage on the Voss. However, the kill counts for that gun are so much higher, that when you calculate the kills per hour, the Voss is still way ahead.

                In general, the Voss delivers 24 more kills per hour per player than the Baur, or in other words, ~8-10 more kills per round for the Vossers. I suppose this settles the ago old Voss/Baur debate...the Voss generates kills at a 25% higher rate. Who here wouldn't want an extra 10 kills per round? That's usually the difference between Gold medal and no medal at all. As an example, if I had 25% more kills with the Baur, my SPM would be 2.70 instead of 2.48, and my KDR would be nearly 2:1, instead of 1.6:1. If someone wants to pull the data for the top 50, or top 100 users, I'll gladly throw that into the sheet to make it more accurate...but I doubt it'd be significantly different.

                Of note, one Baur user was a padder, had ~240 kills per hour with the Baur, compared with the average of 91. His stats were wiped in May. His stats are not included in the sheet.

                So...can we quit with all the Voss-defending around here, stating that it's deviation/damage dealt/color/name/etc make it underpowered? The thing is OVERPOWERED. Should've been called the Hoss.



                Comment


                • #38
                  aaaaaaaaaaaand thar ye have it

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Don't see why you needed a graph and all those statistics to tell you that to be honest. Voss has a clip size of 40, baur has a clip size of 20. Thus, more likely to run out of bullets faster with the baur, more reloads, less time to kill, not to mention not as versatile as the Voss is over ranges and the Voss ROF etc..., so yeah, you're going to kill more people with the Voss in an hour.

                    I don't need no fancy pants graph! although who's the person with the 201 kills per hour with the voss?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      depends on your playstyle, mostly.
                      short answer is: if you play casually once in a while use the voss, if you're actually good at killing use the baur.

                      long answer: if you like to jump into the fray the voss is amazing at short-medium range. if you like to hang back and crouch-scope-aim with every target, the baur will own in your hands.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Lolyn View Post
                        Don't see why you needed a graph and all those statistics to tell you that to be honest. Voss has a clip size of 40, baur has a clip size of 20. Thus, more likely to run out of bullets faster with the baur, more reloads, less time to kill, not to mention not as versatile as the Voss is over ranges and the Voss ROF etc..., so yeah, you're going to kill more people with the Voss in an hour.

                        I don't need no fancy pants graph! although who's the person with the 201 kills per hour with the voss?
                        No, the graph doesn't say anything about clip size. What are you talking about? The graph just shows actual real-world results of all of the guns' attributes and the results they produced in the game.

                        Of course the Voss has a deeper clip, and on the flipside, the Baur deals more damage. The voss fires faster, Baur fires more accurate at range. etc, etc.

                        The graph is only there to provide an answer to the original question: "Is the Voss overpowered"

                        Meaning, is one of the two supposedly "equal" guns actually better. The answer apparently, is yes.

                        If you knew, without using actual data, that the Voss was better, you only support my original argument. The data is only intended to back up that theory.

                        EDIT: The guy with 201 kills per hour with the Voss is the Guy in 13th place on that leaderboard. You see the same leaderboard I see, so just go into the game a take a peek at it. I don't have my game disc with me now.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          The graph shows that Voss users and Baur users are statistically the same. Your graph clearly shows that the top Voss users have a lot more hours with their guns than the top baur users, so of course their score will be higher. Voss only has what, like 20 kills per hour more than the baur? pathetic. Your graph only shows that the voss is NOT a noob weapon, it had the opposite effect.

                          Thats not to mention that the more people attach the PK rockets to the voss than the baur, so really what you're showing is that the PK rockets are a noob weapon (they show up as kills for the weapon they are attached to).

                          Average the total hours played times out, and you see that the baur only underperforms by a few kills to the voss.

                          Everyone needs to stop whining that the voss is a noob weapon, it makes NO Sense.

                          Let's say the voss is the favorite gun of noobs, the implication here is that the noob has no skill so he chooses the easiest gun to kill with, if what you're saying is true, and that 98% of everyone in the world uses the Voss everytime they play, then the players with even slight skill advantage will kill the noobs faster everytime. Because according to your 98% theory, a Voss will be fighting a Voss almost every single time a fight breaks out. I would invite noobs to use a weapon, gather around something please, especially my favorite weapon, it just means I'm garaunteed the kill.

                          The game is balanced, nothing needs to be done to any of the weapons, with the small exception of increasing the clark's ROF (not as much as the herzog, but just a tad).

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Oh for... The gun is only what the coders made it. It is comprised of ROF, damage, deviation, etc. That's it. And, as was shown in the analysis presented by the esteemed blank1, ROF does *not* compensate completely for it's lower damage- it's "time to kill" is greater than the frickin' Krylov. As an "upgrade" rifle, it's a fail. Heck, I used it more simply because I assumed it must be better in some way. But my new toon will not be unlocking it any time soon, and just sticking with the stock rifles.

                            Your graph of what some selected users do with the two guns is meaningless- The gun *is* the stats in a video game, and the stats are not great. Plain and simple. If you want to convince me that the Baur is tougher to use, you might be able to do so, based on recoil, deviation, and clip size. But if the rifle's key performance characteristics are no better than other weapon choices, like the Krylov and (soon) SCAR, then the rifle is no better than the other choices. Why is that concept so difficult for you?? If the gun has more kills on the second tuesday of every month when used by guys named Bill, IT DOESN'T MATTER!! It's a statistical anomaly, or is attributable to other factors.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              RottnJP, the argument on time to kill (TTK) has been squeezed to death in another thread somewhere. Truth is, the TTK doesn't matter. Being able to kill someone 0.1 seconds faster isn't going to make any difference unless both of you see each other and start shooting at the EXACT same time, which is, to put it mildly, a little too coincidental.

                              when a few players are getting ridiculous scores with the voss, its most likely hacking, padding or skill. However, when a quarter of a million users consistently do better with the voss it can either be:
                              1. voss is more powerful
                              2. online players use the baur the wrong way.
                              The rifle's "key performance characteristics" being similar does not matter. They can be 100% balanced theoretically, but if one is a lot harder to master than the other, then obviously one is overpowered. If one rifle takes significantly more skill to master, then it should have higher performance (when used correctly) to compensate. This is simple gameplay mechanics.

                              on another note, i have used both guns to moderate success, and i think i have an explanation as to the voss' higher kill rate.
                              Let's ignore the spray-and-pray Baur noobs who complain about how the Baur is ridiculously inaccurate. Correct usage of the Baur is not to rush into the fight, but stay a little distance back and pick off targets. This pseudo-sniping is obviously slower-paced and takes longer to kill people than in CQB, which the Voss is made for. There is also a higher chance that players being shot at will run for cover, and there is more choice of cover when the person is further away, it decreases the probability of the Baur user killing a person as fast as when he uses a Voss correctly.

                              So perhaps the statistics prove one thing - most users simply prefer the Voss' playstyle. To accurately reflect the two gun's power, perhaps the same statistics should be taken, but only from the top 50% of users per gun. Rationale being that the bottom consists of less skilled players who are much more likely to adopt a "spray-and-pray" playstyle, thus hugely favouring the Voss (i think we are all agreeable on how the Voss is easier to use than a Baur for a new player).

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X