Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

What do you call noob-friendly? Beeing dumb enough to continuosly end up in front of your enemy, or pushing that deadly button?

Do you too insinuate that all J10-pilots are noobs?

Any attemp to nerf the missiles, will either make the air a playground for non-teamplayers taking time do waste fragticktes, or completely ignore the presens of other jets in the air, since they are no threaths at all.

Why do people focus on how deadly missiles will be, instead of thinking tactically safe beeing more skillike!?

Probably only J10 whoes that really never have tried acctually flying with tactics.

Thats because pushing a button 2 times to get a kill was never skillful. In the good old days one had to break the opponent in order to create missile shot opportunities. In the new days, all it takes is being on someones six. That means- the beauty and skill in maneuvering and countermaneuvering has been mostly lost. You can have a shot with any plane, at any plane and your success rate is huge, compared to ...-1.12. The fact that one has absolutely no drawbacks to spamming missiles, as opposed to having to deal with the "flare effect" in pre 1.2, is also sad. The fact that people try to counter other people who are saying these missiles are newb-friendly is utmost sad.

Im a 100% diehard BF2 dogfighter, and what I play today, is sickening... From day one Ive played to become a superior "Balerine dancer", which means maneuverer you´. Today, the game offers me weapons that I can use to kill an opponent without contest, while not having to actually re-educate myself skillwise anymore, and this is sad. In the old days, I KNEW that I didnt die because of missiles, but because I lacked in skill, and that brought me to the ground and forced me to reeducate myself one step further. Today, I just shrug it off, blame it on the missile and move on. Never has a loss in the game, skillwise, has been so easy to swallow.

[IDC-Shorly]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

Really doesnt help the majority of groundplayers that pilots like you and a few others would go for a dogfight. Most jets will go bomb-and-reload-runs, which will destroy the game even more then it is today.

If you want to become better, fly the F-35.
If you want some easy frags, go in the J10.

Although, I dont find the F-35 to be that bad. Its just naked as nothing when coming down on bombruns. Which also states the fact that public players cannot avoid falling in love with fullscreen-kills.

Not meanth for anyone special, just a general observation.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

Really doesnt help the majority of groundplayers that pilots like you and a few others would go for a dogfight. Most jets will go bomb-and-reload-runs, which will destroy the game even more then it is today.

Blame it on stupid people.

I was a squadleader a few days back, we capped the Hotel flag at Oman. I KNEW there was a competent bomber (my rival) airbourne. We capped teh flag to white and then I ordered my squad to leave the flagzone. 10 seconds later Su-34 bombed the hell out of 2 guys who were left back, they werent in my squad. We went back, capped the flag in mere seconds and left. Zero casualties.

When youre a pilot, you know how a good pilot thinks and you can avoid most of the deaths by another pilot. Theres no problem. People are just lazy.

[jakswan]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

Thats because pushing a button 2 times to get a kill was never skillful. In the good old days one had to break the opponent in order to create missile shot opportunities. In the new days, all it takes is being on someones six. That means- the beauty and skill in maneuvering and countermaneuvering has been mostly lost. You can have a shot with any plane, at any plane and your success rate is huge, compared to ...-1.12. The fact that one has absolutely no drawbacks to spamming missiles, as opposed to having to deal with the "flare effect" in pre 1.2, is also sad. The fact that people try to counter other people who are saying these missiles are newb-friendly is utmost sad.

Im a 100% diehard BF2 dogfighter, and what I play today, is sickening... From day one Ive played to become a superior "Balerine dancer", which means maneuverer you´. Today, the game offers me weapons that I can use to kill an opponent without contest, while not having to actually re-educate myself skillwise anymore, and this is sad. In the old days, I KNEW that I didnt die because of missiles, but because I lacked in skill, and that brought me to the ground and forced me to reeducate myself one step further. Today, I just shrug it off, blame it on the missile and move on. Never has a loss in the game, skillwise, has been so easy to swallow.

Good post as ever Chris but I do disagree a little.

I'd consider myself a dogfigher heck I'd rather lose a good dogfight than baserape. However the reality was in 1.12 that a lot of pilots elected to ignore each other, there are posts on here by pilots that stated that was the case (not you I hasten to add).

Now if you don't deal with a pilot he is deadly to you. There is still a lot of skill in fact I'd say 50% of my air kills are cannon / missile combos. In 1.12 it was more forgiving, e.g. ok so a pilot is behind me but lets not panic just yet as I've a long window in which to escape.

In 1.3 you have to be aware whats behind you otherwise you're not going to last long.

Of course this doesn't apply to the J10 in fact in 1.3 I think I've only been shot down by another plane once and that was when I spilled coffee all over my desk

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

Good post as ever Chris but I do disagree a little.

I'd consider myself a dogfigher heck I'd rather lose a good dogfight than baserape. However the reality was in 1.12 that a lot of pilots elected to ignore each other, there are posts on here by pilots that stated that was the case (not you I hasten to add).

Absolutely, that made me pretty disappointed. Imagine the fury and anger and the need for revenge after a baseraper has ruined your take-off for 10th time and you get airbourne. You feel youre going youre goign to get an awesome satisfying fight to teach that punk a lesson. And heres whats going to happen. You line him up, approach carefull from bottom-left side angle with MGs pinting at the nose antenna, you open the lock and spam away, thinking hes going to pull a tight upper right and open himself up for a missile hit. Then you realize with horror that "**** no!", he just goes ahead, and gets 2 missile hits before he can drop 2 bombs... so much for skills. As a matter of fact, I cannot remember any good baseraper being good in a dogfight... And when I was groundpounding, I constanly saw jets passing each other... Hell, if DICE would code that busdriver greeting the busdrivers do to each other, dogfight in pre-1.2 would have been perfect...

Now if you don't deal with a pilot he is deadly to you. There is still a lot of skill in fact I'd say 50% of my air kills are cannon / missile combos. In 1.12 it was more forgiving, e.g. ok so a pilot is behind me but lets not panic just yet as I've a long window in which to escape.

Yup, just like choppers vs choppers are today. But while choppers are more or less balanced out in firepower/maneuverability, jets arent. So some jets are pushed back to defensive and some dont have any weaknesses. This is wrong. And this is a result of many mistakes, one being insufficient beta-testing...

In 1.3 you have to be aware whats behind you otherwise you're not going to last long.

BUT, this isnt dogfighting anymore. Wheres the excitement in maneuvering and countermaneuvering? Now you spam, and thats it. Flare system, planes defensive capabilities and missile lock on features do not support missiles that DICE is trying to make to hit 100%. I would accept 100% working missiles, because it will create an atmosphere where dogfights will not be ignored. However, the restrictions should be in place. Im currently experimenting on a "perfect" solution.

Of course this doesn't apply to the J10 in fact in 1.3 I think I've only been shot down by another plane once and that was when I spilled coffee all over my desk

Take this inbalance as a bug, youll sleep better, trust me :P

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

1.12 A2A in 1.4 4tw!

Keep the dream alive! :cry:

[Skwurl]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

What's the status on the F35/J10 balance? Has DiCE announced any modifications to the collision mesh? Surely they must be aware that the majority of the community wants this fixed.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

What's the status on the F35/J10 balance? Has DiCE announced any modifications to the collision mesh? Surely they must be aware that the majority of the community wants this fixed.

Thats a big fat fracking negative!

PlaneWhore, you can dream, aslong as you wont wet-dream!

[IDC-Shorly]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

Seriously, if those missiles could only track that J10 it would be ok. But they still, fired from F-35, tend to find a chopper on other side of map instead of keeping that track it had lock on when fired. Just had a couple of shots now much like you descripe Chris. Then, they totally change direction, way out of my lock radius, and another angle.

Those missiles have been a victim of Bin Laden, I know for sure! Every US missile goes for american blood.

No, I want this game to have some sort of challenge. When 1.12 you could bank the JSF in a turn, seen from chase-front, you knew every missile would miss when you just got that green lighteffect under the nose of the JSF.

This really isnt good enough. Still with a 1.12 patching on those missiles, they would still be favored by J10, since they more easily can get behind again. Then just barrel-roll in fly-by to avoid every single shot. Only strafing bullets would have a chance to hit. And, with the netcode in BF2, then there wouldnt be much of a fight for the JSF here as well.

Why not just make a "Jet Refuel Badge?"

Then one man could fly this huge aircraft, refueling other jets. Then jets could carry like 6 to 10 bombs. And just remove the bs-missiles.

In this way we all would be happy with balance. So, those who want a decent fight, can go back to 42, and have it there

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

Seriously, if those missiles could only track that J10 it would be ok.

This existed and it was called 1.2. Air combat in 1.2 was buggy as all hell to be sure but discounting the bugs the air to air combat was shallow but at least the F-35B stood a chance versus the J-10.

I want this game to have some sort of challenge. When 1.12 you could bank the JSF in a turn, seen from chase-front, you knew every missile would miss when you just got that green lighteffect under the nose of the JSF.

That is true of poorly fired missiles in 1.12 but missiles fired from the correct tracjetory hit other aircraft about 40-50% of the time. That in addition to the aircraft cannon was more than enough firepower to down any aircraft provided you had the skill and determination. If it's true and you really want a challenge then you'll welcome 1.12 with open arms because being an effective dogfighter in 1.12 was challenging. Looking at 1.3 air to air combat has no challenge - and please don't say F-35B versus J-10 is a challenge because it isn't but rather a toss of the dice. If you get a good J-10 pilot you're dead but if they're a newbie you might be able to down them with cannons.

Still with a 1.12 patching on those missiles, they would still be favored by J10, since they more easily can get behind again. Then just barrel-roll in fly-by to avoid every single shot. Only strafing bullets would have a chance to hit. And, with the netcode in BF2, then there wouldnt be much of a fight for the JSF here as well.

Of course the J-10 will still be the favored dogfighter (as DICE intended) but if you're skilled enough you'll be able to override that J-10 advantage another player has without difficulty. I had no problem downing the J-10 in 1.12 and while I respected the fact that the J-10 would probably beat me given an equally skilled dogfighter I wasn't intimidated because I knew that at the very least I had a fighting chance and the only thing holding me back from dominating the air with an F-35B (as I always did in 1.12) was my own skill and nothing else. That confidence I used to have doesn't exist in 1.3 because I'm sane enough to know that even an average pilot with even the most basic understanding of Battlefield 2 flight mechanics can score a skill on me with little difficulty. Put a pro in the J-10 and you've got an all out rape fest and a guaranteed win for China on the map.

1.12 air to air will restore at least some level of balance to aircraft and put the challenge back in dogfighting. I don't see the flaw with this plan as the S2A remains unchanged and ground pounders will still have a formidable defense against aircraft. The only thing that's keeping it from happening is DICE not dedicating 10 minutes of their busy schedule to restore some of the old code and then test it out on a private server or even stick it in 1.4 BETA 3 and let the players decide. If they don't feel like testing it then how about just sticking it in and hoping for the best because at least you've got the guarantee that no matter how "bad" it might be no way possibly exists for it to be worse than 1.3 A2A balance.

[imported_bigpappa]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

enough with the plane threads. they just need to fix the f-35b, which they wont, cause they dont care, cause they are concetrating on a new game to take your money.

[IDC-Shorly]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

In 1.3 my problem isnt get the J10 down, that is in fact not to difficult.

What is my major problem is not getting the first jet. On Dragon Valley this is a bit easier, since they both spawn at the same time. Giving me ablity to get where I want before the first strike.

Its kind of funny to see how J10 pilots i have shot down nearly ten times iar, acctually has joined US the next time I joined the server, believing its a secret of the jet, not the pilot istself.

As I have posted earlier, from the right angle, the J10 wont even see you. I shoot down J10 70% of the times wiht missiles. The rest with machinegun.

If maps had been designed so that China had to be a bit more aggressive to win, then this whole jetbalance-issue wouldnt have been at all.

The crappy 30 extra tickets US gain at start, normally disseappers in TKs.

Dragon Valley is (IMO) the best map for the JSF to have decent chances.

As for baseraping, I dont do this, not in any plane, even if I can by serverrules. The only exeption is on Wake as US. Dragon Valley occasionally when just passing by, or to give a J10 whoe a message. On Dalian Plant PLA has nothing more to do then hope someone goes down, so they all camp in the valley. That valley is with concern of the AA-positions a death-trap for any JSF attack anyway.

Btw, have you ever thought about how come J10 spawn in 30 seconds, beeing defended from 5 of 6 directions?

IMO the J10 is the noobs oppotunity to have a fair chance, giving the challengeseeking pilot some artificial enemies.

Baserape, who bothers? I would be ashamed doing so, that is really low-life.

This game is what one makes, now finally I have found a decent server, which makes any tempting whoe to go down, as the teams will use any chance to remove any advantage their superiour enemy else would have had.

But, publicservers really lack brains on the other side of the screen. That is some major reasons why I find baseraping so unexeptable to do.

For me I go in what ever role I do, to do that particulary job, regardless of my own personal interest of stats.

The game itself is designed wrong. Please just let DICE get over this game with the experience they have come up with. And hope they can bring a decent game in the future.

They have claerly stated that they are not going to do more tweakes on these jets. I believe, since I every day discovers new things with this game, as new ablities of both different jets, as other vehicles.

Just the other day a guy posted some interesting news on how dophin-diving combined with strafing, causing that roll-animation to give better accuracy. By this my point is that there acctually already are secrets to beat all these disbalanced hardware. Ofcourse its easy to detect: "Oh, speed, this is fast", on which most people find the J10 to be. I guess theres just a matter of time, before the much earlier detected abilities of the F-18 in dogfights, in the JSF. And the harder these are to detect, the more difficult they will be to handle, and also more effective as soon as managed.

I have my thoughts, I have experiments on the JSF, and I acctually think some of these are nasty. I do much of my manouvers on "local server," since the battlerecorder will broadcast this the moment people find something to be detected.

Unfortunately there are no room for mistakes in a live show, so there are no room for mistakes at all against any skilled pilot.

I still think the tweaking of the missiles back to 1.12 will be another mistake. I dont think they need to tweak the jets. If Chris_Redfield can tweake these jets better then DICE, then probably DICE would listen. I think they know what they do, they have made this game. Therefore, no tweaks!

Give me a time, I might show up.

This Is Not The Continue Of The Next 15 Pages.

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

In 1.3 my problem isnt get the J10 down, that is in fact not to difficult.

I have not been shot down once in a J-10 by air to air since the 1.3 patch. Am I just lucky?

What is my major problem is not getting the first jet.

No the major problem is the J-10 is invincible and its missiles will hit you 90%+ of the time.

Its kind of funny to see how J10 pilots i have shot down nearly ten times iar, acctually has joined US the next time I joined the server, believing its a secret of the jet, not the pilot istself.

You're either a liar or those are the worst J-10 pilots ever.

As I have posted earlier, from the right angle, the J10 wont even see you. I shoot down J10 70% of the times wiht missiles. The rest with machinegun.

You would never land a single missile on a competent J-10 pilot. Cannons are a different story but if you're killing J-10 pilots completely with cannons - they suck.

If maps had been designed so that China had to be a bit more aggressive to win, then this whole jetbalance-issue wouldnt have been at all.

A pointless "what if". Fact remains the maps won't be changing anytime soon and every round I have a J-10 I go 70-100 kills guaranteed with zero deaths and never lose the round. That's a balance problem being made very obvious by a skilled pilot.

Dragon Valley is (IMO) the best map for the JSF to have decent chances.

What don't you get about the J-10? If the person isn't an idiot you won't shoot them down. Map has nothing to do with it though I'll agree the single F-35B spawn on Wake is extremely slow and makes matters worse.

As for baseraping, I dont do this, not in any plane, even if I can by serverrules.

Your loss.

The only exeption is on Wake as US. Dragon Valley occasionally when just passing by, or to give a J10 whoe a message.

You're so full of sh1t.

Baserape, who bothers? I would be ashamed doing so, that is really low-life.

Yet just a paragraph up you mention how you love to pop by the airfield and baserape the J-10s. Contradict yourself some more please.

This game is what one makes, now finally I have found a decent server, which makes any tempting whoe to go down, as the teams will use any chance to remove any advantage their superiour enemy else would have had.

Screw SMOKEJUMPER I want to shoot you down. Server name/IP please? I'd like to stop by grab a J-10 and FRAPS me shooting you down over and over again. Then I'll let you lock on me (Notice I say LET YOU because if I don't want you to lock on to me you won't) and dodge all of your missiles.

Unfortunately there are no room for mistakes in a live show, so there are no room for mistakes at all against any skilled pilot.

You can fly perfectly versus me in a J-10 in an F-35B and I'll shoot you down with laughable ease every time.

I still think the tweaking of the missiles back to 1.12 will be another mistake.

How can it be a mistake? 1.12 air to air missiles have been proven to be effective yet not overly effective. This isn't some unproven code because it was active for months without many gripes (except for the S2A which I don't blame).

[IDC-Shorly]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

I dont promise too much, but I will ground you before 50 ;P You will never reach a 70-100:0.

[zipp0r]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

lol shorly, your full of ****. the only way you could kill someone good in a j10 is if they fell asleep or you kamakzied them.


also Planewhore, I CHALLENGE YOU!!! to get get 70-100 kills on daquing oilfields in the j10 :P