Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

[IDC-Shorly]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

Lol Metallica, you keep to level two before stage one is stated.

Evading missiles is a fairy-tale people have heard about, though, never seen. Making flaeres have a function is stage one.

[colony]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

I heard about a guy who owns J10s with F35Bs using superior tactics of "sneak approach"!:nod: I heard PlaneWhore was smoked by him and all...

You are able to kill a J10 with F35 in the heat of a battle, i.e. J10 whore is raping carrier or concentrating on shooting boats, helos, armor etc.. That's when you can surprise them.

But in a 1 on 1, no one can beat me if im in a J10

You must mean TheBullShark

[saltburn]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

I'm sure by plenty of people have heard that DICE "cannot" balance the J-10 (it's too hard). Incase you haven't read the exact quote:


So we've established DICE is having a hard time creating a solution but sadly they've always had the easiest solution right at their finger tips but choose to ignore it.

Revert air to air missiles (ONLY AIR TO AIR MISSILES!) to the 1.12 patch settings. This isn't some revolutionary concept. I've mentioned it before as so have countless other people. You've already done all the work for yourself DICE. The 1.12 missiles allowed for pretty decent balance between all aircraft and didn't make the air to air missile the almightly "I win button". The F-35B could evade the missile yet you could still hit the J-10 with them. Another benefit is it encourages pilots to use cannons in combination with the air to air missiles rather than just spamming the "never miss" missiles. Best part is it's just so damn simple. It's pretty much a no brainer DICE.

Is it the best solution? No.

Is it the easiest solution? Yes.

Can DICE implement it in about 10 seconds flat? Yes.

Will the J-10 still be the best plane? Yes.

Will it still be grossly overpowered undefeatable air superiority vehicle that is currently in 1.3? No.

Is reverting 1.12 A2A missile handling better than doing nothing because it's "too hard". Hell yes.

As far as I'm concerned with DICE Canada for them this is the way to go and while it might not be the perfect solution it will still get my stamp of approval for a valid agreeable alternative to a complete rework of the whole air to air missiles system and airplane handling characteristics.

TOLD YA SO.

What'd I tell you, they're too lazy to do real adjusting.
I'm by far the smartest person on this board.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

LOL. Shorly, now that Ive wiped your saliva out of my face and my ears have adjusted with the tinnitus after yoour yelling at me, Im going to ask you a simple question- Why do you think I fly the F35B? I love the challenge. All of my proposals dealing with F35B have still one outcome, F35B will be inferior jet to the J10. Ive posted a theory why USMC is and should be at a disadvantage. Its because its on the offensive side, thus at a disadvantage, for players who WANT that disadvantage to keep their game interesting. Why else would there be so many maps which require USMC to have teamwork to win. And they have so much to lose... (Carrier based maps).

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

You must mean TheBullShark

BullShark is a great pilot and way back in the day when I wasn't nearly as good as I am now he managed to chase me in an F-35B for an entire round of Dalian Plant and finally he shot me down towards the end of the round once after working me down with cannons. If that had happened in 1.3 instead of actually escaping my attacks and being able to fight back again and again I would've out maneuvered him with a J-10 and kill him with 2 missiles every time. It was in fact the early patches skill factor that allowed BullShark to effectively harrass me while in a J-10 and thus slow down my killing. If he had choosen to camp me afterwards I'm sure I would've been effectively out of business and rightfully so.

Planewhore and other J10 whores, please, never try make me think you are decent pilots. There is a reason you chose your jet of choice, and that is easily predicted as superioritiy. You never can, nor will, manage to do the F-35, aka "the coffin", like pro-pilots like Metallica or others.

Excuse me? I fly the F-35B coffin just fine and can do quite well in it. That's me though and I'd rather not put myself in that disadvantageous situation (most people feel the same I'm sure won't admit it). Don't compare me with Metallica either because both he and I know who's the better pilot. Don't get me wrong because Metallica is a very skilled pilot and far better with helicopters than I am but every round me and Metallica flew together (with Ventrilo mind you) in airplanes I had about a 40%-100% higher score every single round. Again not dissing on Metallica but as far as I'm concerned my skill is superior to his in a plane (at least in combat effectiveness and hitting ground targets) and more to the point Metallica is enough of a down to earth player to admit it.

I am among those who really want the J10 to be as it is, since whenever I take down one of these, I have predicted the pilots mistake. This is why I prefer the JSF, this is why I find airfights to be interesting

I'm sorry Shorly but I just can't accept that. If you want the J-10 to remain the same more likely than not you enjoy whoring it for the feelings of air superiority it gives you. According to your statistics you spend most of your time on the Wake 2007 map which raises an immediate red flag for a J-10 whore. Although I cannot see your China/USMC distribution on Wake 2007 I strongly suspect you spend a fair share of your time on Wake 2007 in the cockpit of a J-10.

You’re a star Planewhore I enjoy your rantings and you raise a valid issue but let me ask you as an above average pilot in say a MIG / F35 how many times would I have shot you down in 1.12, 1.2 and then 1.3 over say 20 dogfights.

Zero in 1.12 when skill mattered of course because I'm just that good. Getting in to the never-miss AA missiles land there is no way I can make an accurate prediction but the one thing I will say is that the player with the J-10 will most likely win every engagement. Does that sound "balanced" to you?

Sorry if me being a skilled pilot is so hard for you to believe but I can do the same thing in every other powerful vehicle so why not an airplane? Of course I'm not blowing smoke out of my a$$ either because I've got the statistics to prove it. Just take for example a tank or APC. On maps like Mashtuur and Sharqi (Karkand too, but that's often times too easy...) I easily go 60-70 kills in 10-15 minutes and 0-1 death just about every other round. Does that seem right to you that all those AT players, TOW missiles, C4 packs, other tanks, other APC and helicopters can fail to kill me an entire round just because I'm good at what I do? It applies to all vehicles because of the way that they can augment a skilled players abilities. Of course you can't do the same thing on infantry but comparing infantry to vehicles is of course apples to oranges.

The fact still remains I am undefeated in a J-10 and if you stick me in the cockpit of one of these bad boys I absolutely guarantee you a crushing victory against the enemy team. Don't believe me? Go right ahead and check my various profiles and you'll notice that my Wake 2007 W/L record is something like 30 wins for every single loss. Only other maps that compare to that is other maps like Dalian Plant and Dragon Valley and it doesn't take an Einstien to discover the common thread.

[mayday]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

yes please fix the crappy missle code some how.

[jakswan]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

Zero in 1.12 when skill mattered of course because I'm just that good. Getting in to the never-miss AA missiles land there is no way I can make an accurate prediction but the one thing I will say is that the player with the J-10 will most likely win every engagement. Does that sound "balanced" to you?

Sorry if me being a skilled pilot is so hard for you to believe but I can do the same thing in every other powerful vehicle so why not an airplane? Of course I'm not blowing smoke out of my a$$ either because I've got the statistics to prove it. Just take for example a tank or APC. On maps like Mashtuur and Sharqi (Karkand too, but that's often times too easy...) I easily go 60-70 kills in 10-15 minutes and 0-1 death just about every other round. Does that seem right to you that all those AT players, TOW missiles, C4 packs, other tanks, other APC and helicopters can fail to kill me an entire round just because I'm good at what I do? It applies to all vehicles because of the way that they can augment a skilled players abilities. Of course you can't do the same thing on infantry but comparing infantry to vehicles is of course apples to oranges.

I have played against some great chopper pilots on maps like Sharqi they'll get 40-1 k/d ratios, but I always feel that with a bit of teamplay with a few of my mates we can do something. It might just mean we scare them off slow them down but we'll get them in the end, there are numerous tools at our disposal to that end.

Again very good tankers (normally I find tankers on their own easy to deal with, it's ones that have a got a squad around the tank are deadly) I can do something. There is no way that you have a sustainable 100-1 k/d ratio in a tank or APC btw.

What your saying is in 1.12 a pilot with 30000 kills (and their not baserpae kills I'd say at least half are air kills) can't do anything to stop you. If I can't stop you there is no one else on the server that can. Sorry Planewhore this is a game, I play it for fun and that is not fun.

I watched your Oman vid in 1.12 if I was on the server that day I could not have stopped you, if I got the MIG up in 1.3 you'd not be able to play like that I can assure you and in 1.2 you'd have to have changed your style of play totally.

This issue is not about pilots it is about the game of BF2 and the effect that balance in the air has on the entire game, 1.12 was unbalanced, heck I reckon I could get a 40-1 k/d ratio if I wanted in 1.12.

The fact still remains I am undefeated in a J-10 and if you stick me in the cockpit of one of these bad boys I absolutely guarantee you a crushing victory against the enemy team. Don't believe me? Go right ahead and check my various profiles and you'll notice that my Wake 2007 W/L record is something like 30 wins for every single loss. Only other maps that compare to that is other maps like Dalian Plant and Dragon Valley and it doesn't take an Einstien to discover the common thread.

You miss my point I'll make it again, on Wake with a few of my mates we would use an F35 to deliver a SL to Airfield and then spawn. We would be able to do something to stop you or at least be able to try. On Dalian plant we don't have that option.

The J10 is a joy to fly and personally I'd like to keep the plane itself like it is. If I'm US and up against decent ish pilots and I know it's going to be a mare but take away at least half that armour and the majority of times I would not have that much of a problem, well at least half the problem I did have.

[zipp0r]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

Do you want chance to withdraw that comment? Are you seriously saying that aircraft balance has no bearing on the outcome of the game, that the 60 other players should sit back and say fair enough let the pilots decide.

Great chopper pilots you want forty missiles and treble armour, well heck I don't fly choppers so I'm not entitled to an opinion on the subject.

no and no i did not sayjet balance doesnt affect the game.
people that dont fly alot, know each jet very well, how S2A are effective and have no skill at all.. have no right to an opinion in balancing aircraft.

it's like your mom telling a racing driving to do all sorts of tweaks to his car when she doesnt know jack ****, but just because she can drive a car..albeit not very well.. shes knows what shes on about ?

[pYura]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

They changed the air-to-air missles in 1,12 becouse they missed a lot and hit frindly jets/choppers. THey wont revert but I still agree with the PlaneWhore...

[IDC-Shorly]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

@Chris_Redfield: Ok, then I got you a little wrong, mixed you up a little by a post of PW.

BullShark is a great pilot and way back in the day when I wasn't nearly as good as I am now he managed to chase me in an F-35B for an entire round of Dalian Plant and finally he shot me down towards the end of the round once after working me down with cannons. If that had happened in 1.3 instead of actually escaping my attacks and being able to fight back again and again I would've out maneuvered him with a J-10 and kill him with 2 missiles every time. It was in fact the early patches skill factor that allowed BullShark to effectively harrass me while in a J-10 and thus slow down my killing. If he had choosen to camp me afterwards I'm sure I would've been effectively out of business and rightfully so.


Excuse me? I fly the F-35B coffin just fine and can do quite well in it. That's me though and I'd rather not put myself in that disadvantageous situation (most people feel the same I'm sure won't admit it). Don't compare me with Metallica either because both he and I know who's the better pilot. Don't get me wrong because Metallica is a very skilled pilot and far better with helicopters than I am but every round me and Metallica flew together (with Ventrilo mind you) in airplanes I had about a 40%-100% higher score every single round. Again not dissing on Metallica but as far as I'm concerned my skill is superior to his in a plane (at least in combat effectiveness and hitting ground targets) and more to the point Metallica is enough of a down to earth player to admit it.


I'm sorry Shorly but I just can't accept that. If you want the J-10 to remain the same more likely than not you enjoy whoring it for the feelings of air superiority it gives you. According to your statistics you spend most of your time on the Wake 2007 map which raises an immediate red flag for a J-10 whore. Although I cannot see your China/USMC distribution on Wake 2007 I strongly suspect you spend a fair share of your time on Wake 2007 in the cockpit of a J-10.


Zero in 1.12 when skill mattered of course because I'm just that good. Getting in to the never-miss AA missiles land there is no way I can make an accurate prediction but the one thing I will say is that the player with the J-10 will most likely win every engagement. Does that sound "balanced" to you?

Sorry if me being a skilled pilot is so hard for you to believe but I can do the same thing in every other powerful vehicle so why not an airplane? Of course I'm not blowing smoke out of my a$$ either because I've got the statistics to prove it. Just take for example a tank or APC. On maps like Mashtuur and Sharqi (Karkand too, but that's often times too easy...) I easily go 60-70 kills in 10-15 minutes and 0-1 death just about every other round. Does that seem right to you that all those AT players, TOW missiles, C4 packs, other tanks, other APC and helicopters can fail to kill me an entire round just because I'm good at what I do? It applies to all vehicles because of the way that they can augment a skilled players abilities. Of course you can't do the same thing on infantry but comparing infantry to vehicles is of course apples to oranges.

The fact still remains I am undefeated in a J-10 and if you stick me in the cockpit of one of these bad boys I absolutely guarantee you a crushing victory against the enemy team. Don't believe me? Go right ahead and check my various profiles and you'll notice that my Wake 2007 W/L record is something like 30 wins for every single loss. Only other maps that compare to that is other maps like Dalian Plant and Dragon Valley and it doesn't take an Einstien to discover the common thread.

Why you accuse me of flying the J10? Are 7:1 in the coffin due to baserapers and teamkillers to hard to believe?

Many things you know about me. If you check my Army stats you will clearly see that I play US most of the time. Acctually, on the servers I play most, there are teamswitch, and I lamejoin to US as often as I can.

I'm not nearly as good in the J10 as in the JSF. Flying a lot in the JSF makes me feel the J10 to be slow in turning and climbing. Still, I guess I would do better in a J10 then you against me in a F-35. Even you fakenicking to practice the JSF public without getting owned by pubbers.

As you clearly have stated, you wont allow your enemy get in air. As you may know, there spawns 29 smacktards and noobs on that carrier (all experienced players swithch to MEC/PLA since they are clearly better equipped). When these 29 spawns at the exact same location, then the one closest to the JSF takes it. This makes a noob grab the most valuable tool in most cases. Beeing a freefrag, making his team never get that jet back to air. On Dalian Plant PLA has the advantage of letting non-aviators spawn farther north. In this way you will not have the complete noobs gabbing the jets. This is exactly what happens on any carrier. Then ofcourse there is me, wwaiting for jet, and ofcourse, two men lamejoining to PLA to have a J10.

Being good in a jet is MUCH MORE then kdr. You simply cant become a better dogfighter by raping them on the carrier. You can rape well, but that's about it.

Unfortunately, a JSF-pilot will not dogfight a J10 since the J10 can overrun and outmanouver the JSF. Therefore in most cases I send a message to that pilot: "Get the hell of my teams carrier." This is done by the one missile that the JSF can send to the J10 before complete evading is done by the J10.

I gurantee you that if you play against me on "Dragon Valley," "Dalian Plant" or "Wake Island," then your amount of kills will be be reduced to maximum half of what you normally get.

I dont do that helipad-rape as US. Sure I do it occasionally, but that is not my primary target, since that chopper easily goes down in one run with the machingun, making it a "no threath."

If you try keep up that high level of raping, then you are so beiing grounded. This happens all time to me. I find the highscoring rapers, join the server and kick them to the ground. It simply isn't possible to do that as long as the rapers get countered.

Dogfighting between the JSF and J10 really isn't to be discussed at all. We all know the result of it.

What is a matter, is in a gamesituuation, the J10's high and aggressive style, which makes it a possible target, and it does become it to.Then there are acctually fights going on, with the F-35 as the winner.

Being a pilot is more about doing whats best for your team. I dont concider knowing where there will be a gathering of freefrags, waiting at chopperspawns at carrier. That sure will give you 10 kills in a ok run, but still isn't concidered to be skilled as a pilot. (By no means PW, I dont concider you no-skilled, I just state that please dont refer to kdr as a skillindicator).

Doing the JSF is about getting down chopper, shooting out AA, and bomb tank/transport where team is getting to shore. Then engaging J10 to make them focus on else then fragging.

It's quite typical to see J10's ignore the precensy of the JSF, then, after grounding the same mid-skilled pilot twice, he will have no frags on the ground, looking for that JSF-pilot to tell him who's the boss. This is acctually the job of the JSF.

You will not make a 70-0 round against me getting the JSF initial on Wake or Dalian Plant.

[[DICE]CKMC]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

We should be careful whenever pointing to a code change and stating "thats an easy change just revert it". As people have said the change went in to help prevent friendly fire and tune some other things. If we did a pure reversion of the code then things would shift back to complaints on getting team kill penalties for AA missiles.

So then we would require a partial reversion, which would be a new form that combines old and new code. So really it would be a completely new code change. Given the nature of game code the more 'simple' adjustments that you try to make the riskier things get.

Our focus is to get 1.4 release so that the stability improvements can provide a more reliable experience. Though I have seen a number of arguments placing the J-10 imbalance above CTD's internally we really want to fix stability first.

[Talus]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

So this does leave J10 rebalancing open for future patches

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

Ahh finally DICE responds.

We should be careful whenever pointing to a code change and stating "thats an easy change just revert it". As people have said the change went in to help prevent friendly fire and tune some other things. If we did a pure reversion of the code then things would shift back to complaints on getting team kill penalties for AA missiles.

Why not just remove the friendly fire abilities of AA missiles just like claymores and mines in that case? Though even with teamkills I'd gladly take AA teamkills and have balanced aircraft (I still get AA teamkills either way!).

So then we would require a partial reversion, which would be a new form that combines old and new code. So really it would be a completely new code change. Given the nature of game code the more 'simple' adjustments that you try to make the riskier things get.

I think you're overcomplicating things as you people down at DICE seem to like to do. It's old proven code with new code that also happens to be tested and proven to work. So rather than put a negative spin on it I'd say it's much more fitting to call it the "cream of the crop" of the code.

Our focus is to get 1.4 release so that the stability improvements can provide a more reliable experience. Though I have seen a number of arguments placing the J-10 imbalance above CTD's internally we really want to fix stability first.

Stability is important I'll admit but plenty of players (myself included) experience absolutely no crashing, Furthermore I've already heard positive feedback from players that the crashing is almost gone. So really what've you got left?

I STRONGLY urge you to consider just "testing" the old 1.12 A2A code in the next version of the beta and see how it goes over with players. That is the whole point of a beta isn't it? Because I think I speak for everyone when I say leaving the air to air balance as is till another patch is unacceptable (if another patch will ever come that it is). We've suffered long enough and we as paying customers demand balance that is fair for all players. Every fiber of my piloting experience tells me that 1.12 is the way to go for an easy solution to at least bandaid the current problem.

Have one of your coders whip it out in about an hour and then slap it on the next beta. What's the harm?

[i made you]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

There's no reason why they can't put this into a beta. The A2A TKs is a much better disadvantage than what exists now, and that's what you have to look at. It partially makes sense anyway and will teach all these spam amateurs to use cannons. I can't believe how much excuse they're created around this.

[XmetallicaXguitarstX]

Re: Easiest way for DICE to fix the J-10 imbalance

Excuse me? I fly the F-35B coffin just fine and can do quite well in it. That's me though and I'd rather not put myself in that disadvantageous situation (most people feel the same I'm sure won't admit it). Don't compare me with Metallica either because both he and I know who's the better pilot. Don't get me wrong because Metallica is a very skilled pilot and far better with helicopters than I am but every round me and Metallica flew together (with Ventrilo mind you) in airplanes I had about a 40%-100% higher score every single round. Again not dissing on Metallica but as far as I'm concerned my skill is superior to his in a plane (at least in combat effectiveness and hitting ground targets) and more to the point Metallica is enough of a down to earth player to admit it.

Yeah I do know you are better than me, but we were flying J-10's, and I couldn't kill jack **** back then air-to-ground in a J-10 because I didn't have much exp. in the J-10. I still don't, but I am way better than I was now. In an F-35B now, I haven't seen many people that are as efficient as me killing ground targets in a short time. Especially on wake.

I haven't really ever seen you fly the JSF too much. Only in those videos you made a long time ago, and I know for a fact you have improved a billion times over.

LOL... and I am really good at getting away from J-10's now. But I am not too great at tracking planes.

I never claimed to be the best, or even anywhere close to it, because I know damn well there are tons of people that I know, that are way better than me. You and colony definately are the best pilots of this game.

What I am really good at though, is playing wake in a JSF. With these BS missles, I still only manage to get shot down 0-1 times per round. Maybe a couple more if it is a bad day.

I mean, hell.. I could fly the J-10, and maintain a 50 K/D ratio, but I choose not to, because I feel cheap when I fly it.. that, and it accelerates too slow for my tastes.