F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

[Roger Smith]

Re: F-35b Vs J-10 - How hard can this be to Fix?

In terms of overall manouverability F-35's and J-10's are in my opinion balanced!

i agree

In my opinion, you balance the Air to Air missiles (reduce the J-10 missile potency), and the rest will balance itself through player skill and tactic.

the problem isnt the aa missiles, apparently the problem is that many airframes have heat sources in the middle of the airframe rather than the back like the f35 has, and that the hitboxes on these airframes are screwed up. in the j10s case, the engine is sticking through the hitboxes. so to sum it up, fix the hitboxes/heat sources and make the aa turn rate lower and you got balanced and skilled air combat.

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

This problem is very anoying since planes are one of my fave things on BF2
Im a competent pilot and can evade planes 75% of the time but in an f-35 i cant no matter what i try. the only times i manage to escape is when the other pilot crashes, dice really need to do somthing about this, I do agree however that totaly fair can be dull but it should be made better thatn it is now.

Re: F-35b Vs J-10 - How hard can this be to Fix?

Looks like I might be a little late in here (HOT TOPIC huh?)
Some of this has been said, but I'd like to add my support to various comments in this thread and add my own comments.

I've spent a lot of time in jets both in 64 Multiplayer online (mostly Wake, Dalian and Gulf) and practicing bombing and general manouvres in empty local multiplayer games. I've always preferred the F-35B, it's simply the most fun to fly. I've also spent a fair bit of time in J-10's and some in the SU's. I've recently managed (after employing a new tactic) to Gold medal in an F-35B on Wake a couple of times, but this inbalance is still my single biggest gripe with BF2 (followed closely by the chaos of securing a jet). Heres what I think:

1. In terms of overall manouverability F-35's and J-10's are in my opinion balanced! The F-35B reacts faster to control input, rolls cleanly, bombs like a dream, and the vector thrust has endless uses! On the other hand the J-10 is Fast, slower to react, a little bit jittery, is harder to roll, but has a significantly greater rate of turn. In guns only air to air combat the two seem well balanced to me. Lately I've even learnt to evaid J-10's entirely after being locked. BUT...<br>
   
2. Twilight zone Air to Air A Missiles: For no apparently good reason J-10 Missiles are rediculously more effective than an F-35. I've experienced this from both cockpits (on both sides) many, many times. The J-10 is a FIRE & FORGET situation (almost always THAT simple). Not even chaff/flares discourages a J-10 missile (only the attacking pilot). I've watched from outside my F-35 as 2 x J-10 missiles chased me up a couple of hundred feet (and around the tightest possible turn) and each plowed one ofter the other into my jet having faithfully followed my heat trail PERFECTLY. Yet when I fire an ENTIRE Payload of missiles at a fully LOCKED J-10 while jasing him straight up through a GRADUAL climb, I watch dumbfounded as all but one (and often none) missile completely misses the target. I've seen them dart of at almost right-angles (even since 1.3) as the approac the J-10. HOW THE HELL CAN THIS BE RIGHT? The US dam sure didn't award a major defence contract to a new jet with worse then average Air to Air missiles!!! Right now an F-35 pilot spends more time avoiding visual contact or missile lock from with a J-10 than he does being a useful member of the team.

In my opinion, you balance the Air to Air missiles (reduce the J-10 missile potency), and the rest will balance itself through player skill and tactic.

Side Note: Don't spose there is any chance of adding a simple but fair Queing System to Carriers and runways to prevent the morally/ethically impaired Teamkillers/Jet Stealers from ruining it for everyone?

Also want to take this chance to say thanks to DICE and EA for the most addictive game ever, and your committment to getting (what is surely a very complex game to develop) right in the end. :)

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

BS. Utter and absolute BS! Give me 10 mins and i'll fix it! Hell! Let ANY of the mod teams touch it and it will be done in a quarter of that time! As everyone would have seen the problem is just the big area between the tail fins on the 35. This was obviously caused by a VERY lazy modeller.

It wouldn't have taken more than a couple of extra mins to fix that. Collision meshs are the simplest part of a model to do. They are the least detail of each model and I would personally be shocked if more than an hour per model was spent on creating each collision mesh from scratch!

I can't believe they've let this issue hang around for more than 12 months now and they still won't deal with it.

Theres a theory, that the missile-uber tracking (which is the biggest issue actually) against F35B is because of the placement of the heatsource.

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

Colin Clarke (Updated Answer): I also received a crash course (har har) on hit box construction which helped me realize that this also would not be a simple adjustment and would also require weeks of adjustment and trial-and-error.

BS. Utter and absolute BS! Give me 10 mins and i'll fix it! Hell! Let ANY of the mod teams touch it and it will be done in a quarter of that time! As everyone would have seen the problem is just the big area between the tail fins on the 35. This was obviously caused by a VERY lazy modeller.

It wouldn't have taken more than a couple of extra mins to fix that. Collision meshs are the simplest part of a model to do. They are the least detail of each model and I would personally be shocked if more than an hour per model was spent on creating each collision mesh from scratch!

I can't believe they've let this issue hang around for more than 12 months now and they still won't deal with it.

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

Negative.
They were reduced in armour because they could not be shot down at all. 120mm shell? no problem. 50cal mg? It'll overheat and I will still have half armour. Stinger missile? As long as I don't hover 20ft in front of one, It'll never hit.
They reduced the rockets because nobody needed 14, they would fire 8 and reload.
They reduced the range of the TV missile because it was being exploited by players guiding it at targets well beyond visual range.

Perfectly reasonable in my mind - they are still too heavily armoured imo and I like piloting choppers. I mean it takes 2 AT hits to kill it! You know what else takes 2 AT hits? - you guessed it! An APC!

I don't mind the reduced armor, but they weren't as hard to kill as you make them out, and certainly a tank shell would usually do it.

And how is guiding a rocket beyond visual range an exploit? If a gunner can do this, then congratulations to him, he is doing his job effectively, so much so that he is destroying the enemy from out of their reach. That is not an exploit, that is being smart.

Also when people ditch rockets to reload, it's to have a full salvo ready instead of having to reload in the middle of a battle, again it is not an exploit, it's using your head.

You guys need to understand that airpower will ALWAYS dominate the battlefield because it is faster, carries heavier weapons, and doesn't have to deal with terrain. Saying aircraft overpower land forces is only true because of the nature of airpower. Trying to balance air vehicles to ground vehicles is like balancing spears and rifles.

But that's beside the point, I have no problem with one jet being stronger/more manueverable than another. Having planes with the same mechanics with just different models is dumb and boring. The fun comes from figuring out how to get the advantage.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

1.2 was utilmate noob mode, 10x worse than f35 is now, for every plane.
and only an idiot would want it back, which you appear to be as every post you make shows you dont know alot.

You have to appreciate the good sides aswell, Zip. Like, at least people aimed their noses at other planes. Skill went outta da window, absolutely. However, an extreme was found. We now have two extremes, the low and the max. DICE now should work on finding a good medium... which... yeah, they arent...

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

Please, rather 1.2 then 1.12. No more bombmode-only for the jets. The groundfighters deserves better then that.

F-35 still suffers of the 1.2-missiles from any jet or AA. Beeing a pilot means get your enemy jet down, then find bombtargets.

For all those not used to handling this, just one singel day in the JSF will improve your style of flying.

1.2 was utilmate noob mode, 10x worse than f35 is now, for every plane.
and only an idiot would want it back, which you appear to be as every post you make shows you dont know alot.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

I thought it was your work - have you released anything for it?

One mod is released, some guy actually made one. Beefed up F35B and added some other dandy stuff.

As fo rmy progress. Jet balancing is complete. I can post up the contents of the ReadMe files here later on. Currently working and experimenting on missiles. I have a few ideas. Right now, the visually best thing I created is slow missile. Not the fast thing default game has, but a slow missile, about 1.5-2 times the jet speed, and its a beautiful sight indeed. But what I am striving for is the ability to ditch the missile in multiple maneuvers, and I believe Im close to finding a solution to actually implementing that.

Jet balance ittself is complete. At least what goes for J10 and F35B, MiGs minor tweaks can actually be left undone because the F35B is boosted enough to leave the MiG alone.

Ive actually thought about releasing it as a first official "Battlefield 2 Dogfight" mod, but all Ive done is changing a few lines of code, so frack that, Im gonna keep it as a personal experiment and test it out with a couple of volunteers, make a video/demo out of it and post it up here.

When its all done, the presentation will include the comparision of turn/roll radius´ in a pictorial/visual form, aswell as a video presentation. A short dogfight scene against AI and human players, presentation of missiles and a few other things, such as beefing up jets in areas the are/are supposed to excel (giving bomber HUD give them information on ground targets from longer distance, while decreasing the same thing for fighters).

As for missiles, Ill post up the changes here aswell.

ObjectTemplate.addTemplate S_AIR_F35B_FlapL_RotationRpm
rem -------------------------------------
ObjectTemplate.setMinRotation 0/-15/0
ObjectTemplate.setMaxRotation 0/15/0 
[B]ObjectTemplate.setMaxSpeed 0/200/0 (from 150)[/B]
ObjectTemplate.setAcceleration 0/-25/0
ObjectTemplate.setInputToPitch[B] PIRoll[/B]

Sight increase in control response.

ObjectTemplate.addTemplate S_AIR_F35B_ElevatorR_RotationRpm
rem -------------------------------------
[B]ObjectTemplate.setMinRotation 0/-9/0 (from 8)[/B]
[B]ObjectTemplate.setMaxRotation 0/9/0 (from-8)[/B]
[B]ObjectTemplate.setMaxSpeed 0/350/0  (from 300)[/B]
ObjectTemplate.setAcceleration 0/-30/0
ObjectTemplate.setInputToYaw [B]PIPitch[/B]
ObjectTemplate.setInputToPitch [B]PIPitch[/B]
ObjectTemplate.setInputToRoll [B]PIPitch[/B]

Increase in maximum pitch (turn radius), somewhere between MiG and F35B in default state. Also a slight increase in control response.

ObjectTemplate.addTemplate S_AIR_F35B_RudderR_RotationRpm
rem -------------------------------------
ObjectTemplate.setMinRotation 0/-20/0
ObjectTemplate.setMaxRotation 0/20/0
[B]ObjectTemplate.setMaxSpeed 0/400/0 (from 300)[/B]
ObjectTemplate.setInputToPitch [B]PIYaw[/B]

Slight increase in control response.

rem ---BeginComp:MultiFireArmTargetComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent MultiFireArmTargetComp
ObjectTemplate.target.maxDistance 375
ObjectTemplate.target.targetSystem TSHeatSeeking
ObjectTemplate.target.lockDelay 1.5
[B]ObjectTemplate.target.lockAngle 10 (from 15 to 10)[/B]

Decrease in lock-angle, you have to keep the jet closer to the HUD circle to aqcuire a full lock.

rem ---BeginComp:DefaultAmmoComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent DefaultAmmoComp
[B]ObjectTemplate.ammo.nrOfMags 6 (from 1)[/B]
[B]ObjectTemplate.ammo.magSize 1 (from 6)[/B]
ObjectTemplate.ammo.autoReload 1
ObjectTemplate.ammo.reloadWithoutPlayer 1

Created a system, in which a jet has 6 magazines of missiles, one per each, so it forces the jet to start a reload process (lasta 2 seconds?) until being able to fire the next missile.

============================================

This is an example of tweaks in F35B. As you can see, theres a slight boost in turn radius and an overall boost in control responses, making in an even more agile little hornet, with a slightly better turn radius.

J10 tweaks make it a LESS agile bird, with still superiority in turn radius.

Im also creating an entirely different missile combat system, which does not rely on spamming all 6, but creating opportunities. Im going to explain more on the missiles when I finish them.

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

As for single player... I tried to test missile-magnetism in SP, Dalian. No, J10 does not ditch missiles there.

This makes me think once again that the only way to actually fix this game is to rewrite the net code.

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

If this is a joke aimed at the patch, then this is a damn good one!

Skeletor, I believe hes talking about me. Since I think I was the forst one to try to balance out the jets. And Ive more-or-less succeeded in changing the situation for the better. Ultimately theres no chance (and no need to) to make jets perfectly balanced without making them equal. However, Ive managed to create balance in inbalance, as in, make jets strenghts more apparent, aswell as their weaknesses more apparent. Sniffing around the files has also taught me what exactly does this and that for a jet, and why exactly do the jets act like they do.

The biggest and most awesome-feelable change I did was adding a mere 5 seconds of afterburner to teh F35B. For a guy who hs flown almost nothing but F35B I felt as if I had INFINITE supplies of AB

I also came to a conclusion that you can not create better air-brakes in BF2. Ive tampered around with the MiG which has apparent airbakes, and Ive changed some degrees. However, in order to create great airbrakes I would imagine, I would have to create huge umbrellas to the back of the plane. I honestly dont see how this can be done, but I guess DICE could...

As for single player... I tried to test missile-magnetism in SP, Dalian. No, J10 does not ditch missiles there.

I thought it was your work - have you released anything for it?

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

Woot, I hope Dice doesn't change the planes, the helicopters already got neutered.

You guys suck, and your ideas to "make the game better" are stupid.

If you really have all these great ideas go make youself a mod and stop harassing DICE to make your stuuupid changes. Ungrateful jerks.

Typical words from a jet whore! If DICE do the decent thing and make the jets more balanced, he wont be able to get loads of noob points. And what do u mean the helicopters got neutered....NO THEY DIDNT?!?! They are so overpowered on small maps its silly, you see the only tactics people have are to grab the chopper early and fly around with no fear of been taken down like noobs. I sometimes have to sacrifice trying to win the map points wise by constantly C4'ing the chopper so noone can have it to make the game balanced! NERF THE JETS AND CHOPPERS! BEEF UP ANTI AA!

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

1.3 mod

If this is a joke aimed at the patch, then this is a damn good one!

Skeletor, I believe hes talking about me. Since I think I was the forst one to try to balance out the jets. And Ive more-or-less succeeded in changing the situation for the better. Ultimately theres no chance (and no need to) to make jets perfectly balanced without making them equal. However, Ive managed to create balance in inbalance, as in, make jets strenghts more apparent, aswell as their weaknesses more apparent. Sniffing around the files has also taught me what exactly does this and that for a jet, and why exactly do the jets act like they do.

The biggest and most awesome-feelable change I did was adding a mere 5 seconds of afterburner to teh F35B. For a guy who hs flown almost nothing but F35B I felt as if I had INFINITE supplies of AB

I also came to a conclusion that you can not create better air-brakes in BF2. Ive tampered around with the MiG which has apparent airbakes, and Ive changed some degrees. However, in order to create great airbrakes I would imagine, I would have to create huge umbrellas to the back of the plane. I honestly dont see how this can be done, but I guess DICE could...

As for single player... I tried to test missile-magnetism in SP, Dalian. No, J10 does not ditch missiles there.

[imported_bigpappa]

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

what mod is this?

1.3 mod

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

I'm not in favour of simply making all the fighters identical. It would take a lot of the variety out of flying.

I like the basic idea of giving the F-35 airbrakes, reducing the armor on the J-10 some, and beefing up the cannons on the Essex... It'd be nice if that one good missile hit and a few rounds of cannon fire could have the J-10 flaming.