F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

cmon dude stop with that ****, its only the f35 that needs a tiny boost, be it done by boosting the plane or by altering the lock system. no other plane needs any adjustments at all.

Thats exactly the reason why DICE is making a mess out of this game. It has taken 12+ patches for Blizzard to patch StarCraft, in almost ALL of those patches there are balance tweaks. Big ones, small ones. Fact remains, theive done them one by one, and thats why you have so many patches. In the same time, this is whats happening in Battlefield 2. You get insufficient Beta testing, and you have this mindset, that balance can be reached by tweaking one jet. No, you will not have balance this way. If you tweak F35Bs turn radius by 5-6%, what will change? Nothing. If you tweak F35B turn radius by 10%, they overpower the MiG in Oman. You cant just tweak "something" in singular and expect it to fix the situation. That being said, NO, Im not happy with only a turn radius fix with the F35B. Im not happy with only lock-time change. Because individually they would bring you no good. There are so many details in creating perfect balance, that its not an easy task!

Then again, if we have missiles that work on each plane with the same result, everyone would be happy because wed get the game weve been playing for one year, and nothing would change. J10 would still be better than F35B, and MiG aswell, but if a MiG has a shot on F35B, teh result is the same as vice versa. I guess this is what you want? I personally would be content with that situation. Doesnt mean I cant dream and have balance in my mind, that actually benefits ALL. Not just people who prefer F35B. Because in the end of the day, the die-hard F35B fans wil still be flying a jet that is inferior. Inferior/superior is not balanced.

Right now, F35B has great defense potential in the form of Essex. On its own, its most likely to go down. It has been this way since 1.0, since the Demo. Would you want a jet that you have to work hard with, to fly it for the challenge (as it is now), or would you want a jet that you know that has chances of being a good dogfghter provided that you use your cards well?

With MiG and J10 outperforming in turn radius and afterburner timer, F35B holds no advantages over the J10 except for handling lag and Essex. And F35B faces J10 one on one. Would you call that balance? Its ATS capabilities do not make up for its lack in ATA. And you cant boost one jet to match two fighters, because the Su-34 in Oman will be under fire. So you have to be careful with what you alter. With a slight nerf (talking about 5% here) in MiGs turn radius, 50% nerf in J10 afterburner, 30% nerf in roll speed we bring them closer to F35B. Then we boost F35Bs roll speed 20%, Afterburner by 30-50%, and decrease turn radius by 5-6%, we get balance. Now if you look at it, the changes made to all jets are minimal, and are only enforcing the strenghts and weaknesses they already have or supposed to have. By the end of the day, you wont feel much of a change in jets, but you will feel a more equal fight.

The missles are pretty crappy, but you CAN kill J-10's, it's just very hard. You need to get the perfect angle, and try to trick the other jet to make him think it's AA or something. It only really works on crappy pilots, cause they don't look behind them. So if there is a decent pilot in the J-10, forget it.

What they NEED to fix, is this "fire and forget" thing that all the other jets get when they get behind a JSF.

FFS when I am flying the BOMBER on oman, I feel nearly invincible, and I am not scared of the JSF's, unless there is a VERY good pilot on the other team. All you have to do is get behind the JSF and fire 2 missles, and forget about it. Once that 2nd missle fires, you can leave, and expect a kill.

As for missiles, treat them as a bug, not a balance issue. I sleep better, I think youd do too :laugh: . Meaning, DICE HAS to fix this, no other alternatives here.

The balance in jets handling on the other hand is purely optional from their part. But they can mess it up (while listening to people who think they know the easy fix), or they actually put some effort into analyzing the situation to come up with the best fix for all jets. Balancing jets is not an easy task. Personally, its all up to this- F35B should not be working its *** off to get a 2 second lock time, while MiG and J10 can theoretically keep F35 in full lock until the end of days... Because thats whats going on now.

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

Provided that the change will not affect the F15 much, it would be something acceptable. I still believe the best way to boost the defense up for bombers would be to give them 2 sets of flares.

I don't think two sets of flares give oyu so much more defense as in dogfighting, it just gives you about 2 or 3 seconds more time, a good MiG pilot will be able to stay at your tail that long.

And here we come to a conclusion that even though a jet limits pilots abilities, in the end its up for the pilot to use it. And right now, a dogfight doesnt start from the first spotting event. Dogfight starts with the plan, how will a pilot operate on the field.

Yes of course it SHOULD be the pilot who, in the end, is responsible for win or loss.
Uhm not sure how you can excactly plan what your enemy will be doing...

Example of J10 pilots mindset, hed operate freely, while F35B will have to hide and strike when the coast is clear.

Wrong, example of a J10 whore's mindset "haha Me s0 1337 skIlZz I pwn all with me skIlLzZ!!!!!!!!", while in reality it's just the plane that enables him to be much better. Take the best WWI pilot... I'm sure he wouldn't stand too much of a chance even against a first Gulf war Iraqi pilot.

In a dogfight, the better you are, the better chances you have. Its that simple.

*even though a jet limits pilots abilities

Considering the limits aren't too harsh.

The difference is negligable. Thing is, here we have other F35B properties into play. First, its faster response to controls. Secondly, its faster response to throttle. Try flying the F35B at 90% throttle, engage the Su-34 and start slowing down. Youve got 2 possible ways to handle the situation. One, you keep the Su in lock range and fire out, if the Su doesnt have flares, its toast. Two, you follow Su with slower speed, following its contrails. If you spot, you have a 15 second window to track it down. Due to agility of F35B you can follow it in turns. if Su goes for circle war, you can use free cam. While the turn diameter is a little larger than F15s, youve got extra agility, faster speed (in case your AB dries out) to have a chance. Im not debunking my statement that a Su can drop F35B in a minimum of 2 loops. But F35B is countless of times better at dogfighting than F15, and that difference in turn diameter is totally negligable.

Not sure what you are trying to get across here... yes, I can get a Su34 with the F35 and yes the F15 turns slower than the F35. Now isn't that what I said?

One thing I love about the F15 is how its slower control response allows me to use the free chase cam more easily. The F35B is extremely agile, combined with my joysticks sensitivity I cant fly the plane that easily in free chase. The key to track the Su-34 in F15 isto use the free chase cam. This should give you plenty of opportunities to get a lock. I didnt say EASILY. I said you CAN engage the Su. That being said, its none of your business to be in a dogfight with the bomber in the first place. F18 handles that job.

The prob is that the Su-34 can hunt the F15 even better. So everyone can hunt the F15 and the F15 has only limited possibilities to escape + due to the attacking role of th USMC you'll have all those nice AA batteries aswell (although, like mentioned before, those could easily be avioded if not for the 2 planes on your *** [which at least one the F18 should be hunting at the given point, so maybe only one])

This statement works well in theory. In practice, you cant make all jets equal because that would be uninteresting. Its sad to see even now, that everyone is flying each plane as if they were all equal, this would just cater to the skilless people. If you boost F35B to MiGs level (or close), you have Su-34 underpowered in Oman, and MEC airforce in Oman becomes inferior, vastly inferior. In my opinion, the gaps in turn radius are big, and fixing them up a little, to be more equal, with a difference not more than 30 feet, would be great. However, remember that the great thing about jets in BF2 is that most of them have their own strenghts and weaknesses. And those should remain. If you want an equal fight between the fighters, you have to work on their differences. Carbon copy fighters arent that interesting. F18 vs MiG looks like a good fight, but they have their distinctive differences. With F35B, youve got a totally different machine that requires a totally different approach. For me, this kind of variety is exciting.

Yes making them differnet, but alltogether still equal would be most intersting (like having different pro's and con's which the pilot can use to his advantage), but right now I don't see the pro's of for example the F35 over the J10. Who needs the big ammo load if you can't use it because you won't have a chance to get the J10 in front of you. In this case, they aren't different still equal but just different, in terms of the F35 being f-ed.

Now, youd like the bombers brought closer to fighters (again), Im saying, this is silly. Bombers have a HUGE impact on land, with 5 accurate bombs and 16 missiles. Their strenght in ATS should be counterbalanced by voulnerability in ATA. Idealistically, they should need air cover, and they do need air cover right now. USMC side (as always) moreso than others.

You can't give that much air cover due to the limited ammount of planes on the game...

Tone up F35B
Tone down Su-34
Tone down J-10
Tone down MiG (just a little)
Tone down Su-30 (just a little)

My suggestion would rather be
Tone up F35B
Tone up F15
Tone up F18 (a tiny bit, cause most still think it's inferior to the MiG, if not that much)

If you did that you wouldn't have to nerf anything, which is a good thing.

No, you want a bomber to be able to dogfight. Im saying its a no-no. You want a challenging dogfight? Pick a fighter.

Given the fact that there aren't enough planes to really provide all-time aircover for the attack planes, they need to be able to dogfight, at least get away... so yes we could make them faster with less AA load (most ground attack variants in [I know] real life just carry two AA missiles aswell anyway)

MiG pilots generally dont need throttle control as their jets speed is pretty much perfect to give them the ability to handle most situations. Also, their speed is pretty low anyway, so if a MiG pilot slows down in a middle of a loop, the F15 just slips away.

It still has 40 more than the F15 and I was reffering to your statement about slowing down with the F15....

Thats what it seems like. But. 600 cannon rounds, very tight and nice bomb spread (!), stable gunning platform with no bullet spread. F35 is the best ATS fighter in the game. For a reason. And since its the best ATS fighter, its the worst ATA fighter. It lacks more in ATA than it gains in ATS, granted, but this is for DICE to fix. Which they probably wont do.

The statement I bolded is basically what this whole discussion is about.

15 seconds. If the MiG pilot isnt near you, the spotted aircraft will not even blink in his map. 15 seconds is enough for you to take altitude and hide, dont you think? Besised, jet spotting commander is like UFO encounters...

But he can guess where you are flying to anyway...
And spotting a plane as commander goes hand in hand with scanning... the fast moving red dots are likely to be either planes or medics.

F18 will to quick work of the Su in notime, provided the pilot does actually do some dogfighting. I dont see a problem. Get a good wingman.

That'sright, but the MiG will be even faster on you.

F18, and it hardly sucks...

Not neccesarily suck but at least worse than the MiG from my and many other player's experience.

Equal in difference, equal in variety. Jet with better turn radius should have less afterburners and should perform worse in rolls. In the meantime the turn radius should not be too superior, like F35 vs J10 case.

Nothing wrong woth that.

Bombers should be an easy prey for the fighters. Bombers should have 2 sets of flares as extra defense.

NOOO! There shouldn't be cheap points!

WarRock, dogfighting, all jets were 100% equal. And it was boring... Difference was in the armament.

I don't know that game, but we can talk about F16 Fighting Falcon if you like. That was a great game back then.

Tell that to the AT guys who miss their target...

Tell them to go and get some target practice...

So... that means you dont have to use your wits abd brains to drag the fight where YOU want it to take place? You just want to circle around until you get killed by a plane with better turn radius?

A good J-1o pilot will down you before you can drag anything more than 20m. And for supporting my advancing ground troups, I will have to fly around there over land...

Its more an arcade game than a sim. You cant simulate death anyway.

I wouldn't say that. Yes, the controls are arcade, but the gameplay itself resembles real life where possible (yes, yes I know it's still far from r/l anyway)

EDIT: Theres not much interesting Air topics anway, and this one has ood convo going. Nothing personal, even if it gets heated .

You have yet to insult my mother or call me a kiddy n00b or something, so you still have the chance of staying my friend.

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

The missles are pretty crappy, but you CAN kill J-10's, it's just very hard. You need to get the perfect angle, and try to trick the other jet to make him think it's AA or something. It only really works on crappy pilots, cause they don't look behind them. So if there is a decent pilot in the J-10, forget it.

What they NEED to fix, is this "fire and forget" thing that all the other jets get when they get behind a JSF.

FFS when I am flying the BOMBER on oman, I feel nearly invincible, and I am not scared of the JSF's, unless there is a VERY good pilot on the other team. All you have to do is get behind the JSF and fire 2 missles, and forget about it. Once that 2nd missle fires, you can leave, and expect a kill.

yea its quite often fire and forget on that plane, i think 6-7 times out of ten i only need to shoot 2-3 missiles, 1 to force flares (which normally ignores them and hits!! lol) and then another 1 or 2. although i have seen some miss and ive had to go after them again and give them another 1 or 2 :laugh:

[XmetallicaXguitarstX]

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

The missles are pretty crappy, but you CAN kill J-10's, it's just very hard. You need to get the perfect angle, and try to trick the other jet to make him think it's AA or something. It only really works on crappy pilots, cause they don't look behind them. So if there is a decent pilot in the J-10, forget it.

What they NEED to fix, is this "fire and forget" thing that all the other jets get when they get behind a JSF.

FFS when I am flying the BOMBER on oman, I feel nearly invincible, and I am not scared of the JSF's, unless there is a VERY good pilot on the other team. All you have to do is get behind the JSF and fire 2 missles, and forget about it. Once that 2nd missle fires, you can leave, and expect a kill.

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

Tone up F35B
Tone down Su-34
Tone down J-10
Tone down MiG (just a little)
Tone down Su-30 (just a little)

In details, its a lot of work.

cmon dude stop with that ****, its only the f35 that needs a tiny boost, be it done by boosting the plane or by altering the lock system. no other plane needs any adjustments at all.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

Ah of course once again, may fault.. of course I din't know that...:evil:
See... if the MiG is STILL superior as we just make the difference between those two smaller, it still has better chances to escape. Of course it's going to be harder for the MiG, but still even more likely than the F15 escaping.

Provided that the change will not affect the F15 much, it would be something acceptable. I still believe the best way to boost the defense up for bombers would be to give them 2 sets of flares.

Yes it is capable... if the pilot has an unlimited number of maneuvers I wouldn't expect in his mind. But that would make him better anyway.

And here we come to a conclusion that even though a jet limits pilots abilities, in the end its up for the pilot to use it. And right now, a dogfight doesnt start from the first spotting event. Dogfight starts with the plan, how will a pilot operate on the field.

Example of J10 pilots mindset, hed operate freely, while F35B will have to hide and strike when the coast is clear.

In a dogfight, the better you are, the better chances you have. Its that simple.

*even though a jet limits pilots abilities

This is funny anyway... let's take a look at the stats you posted for me, just taking out the MiG-29:

F-15
Diameter of turn: 332ft
Time to do 360 turn: 8 Seconds
Maximum speed at 300ft: 1070
Maximum speed at 800ft: 1900
Maximum speed at 300ft with AB: 1270
Maximum speed at 800ft with AB: 2540
Time required to do a 360 turn using only
Yaw at 300ft: 22 Seconds
Time required to do a roll at 300ft: 3 Seconds
AB fuel: 13.5 Seconds

F-35B
Diameter of turn: 328ft
Time to do 360 turn: 8 Seconds
Maximum speed at 300ft: 1160
Maximum speed at 800ft: 1880
Maximum speed at 300ft with AB: 1550
Maximum speed at 800ft with AB: 3260-3540
Time required to do a 360 turn using only
Yaw at 300ft: 18 Seconds
Time required to do a roll at 300ft: 1.75 Seconds
AB fuel: 10.2 Seconds

The difference is negligable. Thing is, here we have other F35B properties into play. First, its faster response to controls. Secondly, its faster response to throttle. Try flying the F35B at 90% throttle, engage the Su-34 and start slowing down. Youve got 2 possible ways to handle the situation. One, you keep the Su in lock range and fire out, if the Su doesnt have flares, its toast. Two, you follow Su with slower speed, following its contrails. If you spot, you have a 15 second window to track it down. Due to agility of F35B you can follow it in turns. if Su goes for circle war, you can use free cam. While the turn diameter is a little larger than F15s, youve got extra agility, faster speed (in case your AB dries out) to have a chance. Im not debunking my statement that a Su can drop F35B in a minimum of 2 loops. But F35B is countless of times better at dogfighting than F15, and that difference in turn diameter is totally negligable.

How can you chase down the Su34 so easily if the F15 is even worse where you see the Su34 advantage over the F35?

One thing I love about the F15 is how its slower control response allows me to use the free chase cam more easily. The F35B is extremely agile, combined with my joysticks sensitivity I cant fly the plane that easily in free chase. The key to track the Su-34 in F15 isto use the free chase cam. This should give you plenty of opportunities to get a lock. I didnt say EASILY. I said you CAN engage the Su. That being said, its none of your business to be in a dogfight with the bomber in the first place. F18 handles that job.

And you say that a dogfight shouldn't just be a matter of 3 loops. Excactly. But that's what happens if you make one plane so much inferior to another... that, or even less. If you had them ALMOST on par, whith the ground attack planes just slightly* worse, you'd have more intersting dogfights, as maneuvers would count more than just moving the joystik in one direction.

This statement works well in theory. In practice, you cant make all jets equal because that would be uninteresting. Its sad to see even now, that everyone is flying each plane as if they were all equal, this would just cater to the skilless people. If you boost F35B to MiGs level (or close), you have Su-34 underpowered in Oman, and MEC airforce in Oman becomes inferior, vastly inferior. In my opinion, the gaps in turn radius are big, and fixing them up a little, to be more equal, with a difference not more than 30 feet, would be great. However, remember that the great thing about jets in BF2 is that most of them have their own strenghts and weaknesses. And those should remain. If you want an equal fight between the fighters, you have to work on their differences. Carbon copy fighters arent that interesting. F18 vs MiG looks like a good fight, but they have their distinctive differences. With F35B, youve got a totally different machine that requires a totally different approach. For me, this kind of variety is exciting.

Now, youd like the bombers brought closer to fighters (again), Im saying, this is silly. Bombers have a HUGE impact on land, with 5 accurate bombs and 16 missiles. Their strenght in ATS should be counterbalanced by voulnerability in ATA. Idealistically, they should need air cover, and they do need air cover right now. USMC side (as always) moreso than others.

Tone up F35B
Tone down Su-34
Tone down J-10
Tone down MiG (just a little)
Tone down Su-30 (just a little)

In details, its a lot of work.

The real point is that in an equal dogfighting situation even a slightly better performance than what the other plane has to offer gives you a better chance of escaping ASWELL as engaging. All I want to have is a more challenging dogfighting situation, not just the Fighter pilots to sit on their lazy ***es.

No, you want a bomber to be able to dogfight. Im saying its a no-no. You want a challenging dogfight? Pick a fighter.

Assuming you have a MiG pilot who yet has to gigure out what the thing desribed as "throttle control" in his joystick's manual does...

MiG pilots generally dont need throttle control as their jets speed is pretty much perfect to give them the ability to handle most situations. Also, their speed is pretty low anyway, so if a MiG pilot slows down in a middle of a loop, the F15 just slips away.

Taking away the r/l component cause you don't like that anyway, ingame, it's just another fighter. 1 Seat, 2 Bombs, 6 missiles, like every other fighter... it's not alround, it's a fighter.

Thats what it seems like. But. 600 cannon rounds, very tight and nice bomb spread (!), stable gunning platform with no bullet spread. F35 is the best ATS fighter in the game. For a reason. And since its the best ATS fighter, its the worst ATA fighter. It lacks more in ATA than it gains in ATS, granted, but this is for DICE to fix. Which they probably wont do.

I'm not talking about flying through ignoring any kind of AA, but you do know there are commanders out there from which you can't really hide that easy and who will spot you, so you are most likely to have a MiG behind you a tsome point. And yes, you're not the only great pilot who can escape in an F15, I did that too already... wow I must be an ace... the point is that if you have EQUAL pilots, the F15 is a bit too much of an easy prey.

15 seconds. If the MiG pilot isnt near you, the spotted aircraft will not even blink in his map. 15 seconds is enough for you to take altitude and hide, dont you think? Besised, jet spotting commander is like UFO encounters...

The F18 that is keeping the Su34 busy so it cannot bomb my team? He must be a bastard really...
And I won't tell you gain for the F15 as I already did too often, but it's exactl the GTFO you are mentioning all the time which can't really be done all that good.

F18 will to quick work of the Su in notime, provided the pilot does actually do some dogfighting. I dont see a problem. Get a good wingman.

Which one are you talking about? Ah... it actually doesn't matter, cause they both suck.

F18, and it hardly sucks...

Yes right, they should tweak all the Jets to be equal in their class and the ground attack planes to be just a tad worse than that.

Equal in difference, equal in variety. Jet with better turn radius should have less afterburners and should perform worse in rolls. In the meantime the turn radius should not be too superior, like F35 vs J10 case.

Bombers should be an easy prey for the fighters. Bombers should have 2 sets of flares as extra defense.

WarRock, dogfighting, all jets were 100% equal. And it was boring... Difference was in the armament.

You don't need teamwork to down a BH, just an Eryx and some common sense.

Tell that to the AT guys who miss their target...

... those two don't hit anything and as soon as the battle isn't only between the carrier and the beach, they don't mean **** anyway...

So... that means you dont have to use your wits abd brains to drag the fight where YOU want it to take place? You just want to circle around until you get killed by a plane with better turn radius?

Right, it's not a military sim. But it's also not an arcade game.

Its more an arcade game than a sim. You cant simulate death anyway.

EDIT: Theres not much interesting Air topics anway, and this one has ood convo going. Nothing personal, even if it gets heated .

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

Compare it to pre-1.2. Youd be glad they hit that much.

I had the game about 1 month after it came out... so I know about quite all the patches, pre-1.2 you had to make him do a mistake and then BOOM! GOTCHA! But if you met the requirements a missile would hit... after that we got those missiles which would theoretically hit almost always, but due to bugs magically glanced off the planes often... I personally liked the old version better.

This is retarded. Do I have to serve you the whole meal? If its easy (easier) to get away, its also easier to track. Do you understand?'

Ah of course once again, may fault.. of course I din't know that...:evil:
See... if the MiG is STILL superior as we just make the difference between those two smaller, it still has better chances to escape. Of course it's going to be harder for the MiG, but still even more likely than the F15 escaping.

How can a MiG escape BETTER if you boost F15?!:hmm:

It can't. But it is, like I said beofer, still more likely to escape than the F15 in a dogfighting situation.

You boost F15, you boost its dogfighting abilities, doesnt matter if you did the boost for better escape chances, it effects its offensive capabilities.

As they are neglible as it is now, it won't bee too bad if we'd boost it either.

LOL, WTF? If the Su is capable of escaping you one time, it as a chance of escaping you on a constant basis. That being said, you CAN engage a Su in the F15. Work on those "free cam" skills and youre fine. I can hunt the Su-34 down myself aswell, but the moment theres a pilot in who checks their rear every 5-10 seconds ( like I do), and Im in the F35B, its hell for me. For the Su, to break from the F35B, is a question of making a maximum of 3 loops. Can do it in 2 loops. Thats not a dogfight.

Yes it is capable... if the pilot has an unlimited number of maneuvers I wouldn't expect in his mind. But that would make him better anyway.

This is funny anyway... let's take a look at the stats you posted for me, just taking out the MiG-29:

F-15
Diameter of turn: 332ft
Time to do 360 turn: 8 Seconds
Maximum speed at 300ft: 1070
Maximum speed at 800ft: 1900
Maximum speed at 300ft with AB: 1270
Maximum speed at 800ft with AB: 2540
Time required to do a 360 turn using only
Yaw at 300ft: 22 Seconds
Time required to do a roll at 300ft: 3 Seconds
AB fuel: 13.5 Seconds

F-35B
Diameter of turn: 328ft
Time to do 360 turn: 8 Seconds
Maximum speed at 300ft: 1160
Maximum speed at 800ft: 1880
Maximum speed at 300ft with AB: 1550
Maximum speed at 800ft with AB: 3260-3540
Time required to do a 360 turn using only
Yaw at 300ft: 18 Seconds
Time required to do a roll at 300ft: 1.75 Seconds
AB fuel: 10.2 Seconds

How can you chase down the Su34 so easily if the F15 is even worse where you see the Su34 advantage over the F35?

And you say that a dogfight shouldn't just be a matter of 3 loops. Excactly. But that's what happens if you make one plane so much inferior to another... that, or even less. If you had them ALMOST on par, whith the ground attack planes just slightly worse, you'd have more intersting dogfights, as maneuvers would count more than just moving the joystik in one direction.

Your mindset is the problem with why the "balance" you suggest doesnt balance ****. Just makes things worse...

This is what you think at least.

You want to boost a jet for its better escaping chances. You have either ignored, or you havent thought about those better characteristics giving a jet more chances to engage other jets in a dogfight. The problem with you is that you want to boost offensive side, as opposed to defensive side...

The real point is that in an equal dogfighting situation even a slightly better performance than what the other plane has to offer gives you a better chance of escaping ASWELL as engaging. All I want to have is a more challenging dogfighting situation, not just the Fighter pilots to sit on their lazy ***es.

And it doesnt? It does.

Get MiG close on your tail. Break, go for loop, get rear view, break as soon as you see MiG being at machine gun angle at you, which you can recognize, as MiGs nose is pointing at your cockpit, break. Repeat the loops and breaks. One way to do it.

Assuming you have a MiG pilot who yet has to gigure out what the thing desribed as "throttle control" in his joystick's manual does...

F35B is weak for a reason. Its not a dogfighter. Its USMCs "all around" jet. You can say it sucks "all around". F35B is weak, indeed, but how do you boost a F35B without killing the balance with the MiGs? Complete jet balance can not be done without tweaking ALL of them a bit. Tweaking one-two a LOT does not give the same result as tweaking all of them a little.

Taking away the r/l component cause you don't like that anyway, ingame, it's just another fighter. 1 Seat, 2 Bombs, 6 missiles, like every other fighter... it's not alround, it's a fighter.

So you just have to adapt. No, you cant take that Eagle into the open skies over AA and MiGs airspace. No, you have to hide now, strike when a strike is ńeeded and you have a target. I have a problem with ATA relying on missiles which work unequally. I dont have a problem with the need to hide in the skies. Whats the problem? What cant you handle? You CAN escape the MiG with the F15, its not impossible. I have done it, I am doing it and I wil do it on constant basis, why cant you?

I'm not talking about flying through ignoring any kind of AA, but you do know there are commanders out there from which you can't really hide that easy and who will spot you, so you are most likely to have a MiG behind you a tsome point. And yes, you're not the only great pilot who can escape in an F15, I did that too already... wow I must be an ace... the point is that if you have EQUAL pilots, the F15 is a bit too much of an easy prey.

Who can you blame? You can blame 2 people. The ******* bastard in the F18 who wont give you proper support. Or you can blame yourself for taking a jet that just isnt good at ATA. F15/Su-34/Su-30MKII are not dogfighters. Dont expect maneuverability to ditch OpFor fighters with ease.

The F18 that is keeping the Su34 busy so it cannot bomb my team? He must be a bastard really...
And I won't tell you gain for the F15 as I already did too often, but it's exactl the GTFO you are mentioning all the time which can't really be done all that good.

Good turn radius, 600 rounds of ammo, great roll speed, AB is low, but people in F35B are used to 10 seconds of juice, its slow in speed, but you can ALWAYS slow the OpFor jets down with locking on to them and slowing them down as they turn. And... missile deflector shield (aww, Star Wars LOL). Whats there not to like?

Which one are you talking about? Ah... it actually doesn't matter, cause they both suck.

I want aerial balance as much as the next player. However I also aknowledge that aerial balance isnt just a matter of tweaking one jet. In order to get balance in the air, you have to tweak ALL jets, the missiles, lock on ranges and a lot of **** with it. Having said that, Im working on such balance right now. (maneuverability and armament-wise). DICE has to work on missile hit detection inbalance, after that, they can ditch the air combat because its really not broken that much that you cant play.

Yes right, they should tweak all the Jets to be equal in their class and the ground attack planes to be just a tad worse than that.

Theres no teamwork in BF2 and all teams consist of vast majority of challenged people, is what I think about the game/players for a long time now. So, BHAWK in Mashtuur was overpowered in terms of regular pubbing, where people dont think. They just throw **** around the place...

You don't need teamwork to down a BH, just an Eryx and some common sense.

Not that much of a problem, theres 2 cannons for Essex, and people love to forget that... In theory, there is balance. In practice...

... those two don't hit anything and as soon as the battle isn't only between the carrier and the beach, they don't mean **** anyway...

Thats hardly what it is today. Everyone will laugh at "BF2 is a military simulator"... I know I would.

Right, it's not a military sim. But it's also not an arcade game.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

With the missile hit inconsistency we have now, it does amtter actually, but that never was my point anyway.

Compare it to pre-1.2. Youd be glad they hit that much.

And once again 1002nd time. You just don't get is ha? ALL I SAID WAS IT SHOULD BE POSSIBLE TO GET AWAY EASIER!!! GET AWAY!!!! GET AWAY!!!!!! HOW OFTEN UNTIL YOU GET IT??? GET AWAy GET AWAY GET AWAY!!! GET AWAY DOESN'T MEAN THE SAME AS ACTIVELY PICK A DOGFIGHT! /rant over

to continue... GET AWAY!!! GET AWAY!!! THEY SHOULD HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF GETTING AWAY!!!!! WHEN WE WOULD BOOST IT UP A BIT IT WOULD STILL BE A BIT INFERIOR THUS GIVING THE MiG BETTER CHANCES OF ESCAPING!!!

This is retarded. Do I have to serve you the whole meal? If its easy (easier) to get away, its also easier to track. Do you understand?'

How can a MiG escape BETTER if you boost F15?!:hmm:

You boost F15, you boost its dogfighting abilities, doesnt matter if you did the boost for better escape chances, it effects its offensive capabilities.

That's the whole point... eliminating cheap kills... if the Su34 actually has a chance of getting away, it's a challenging game. And I can still hunt them down quite often in the F35, but if they do get away, I think yea.. . next time I'll get you thus makeing the game more interesting.

LOL, WTF? If the Su is capable of escaping you one time, it as a chance of escaping you on a constant basis. That being said, you CAN engage a Su in the F15. Work on those "free cam" skills and youre fine. I can hunt the Su-34 down myself aswell, but the moment theres a pilot in who checks their rear every 5-10 seconds ( like I do), and Im in the F35B, its hell for me. For the Su, to break from the F35B, is a question of making a maximum of 3 loops. Can do it in 2 loops. Thats not a dogfight.

If that's what you are saying, you're saying wrong things. I don't like to rely on heavy caps lock usage again, so if you didn't get it until now, you'll probably never get it anyway.

Your mindset is the problem with why the "balance" you suggest doesnt balance ****. Just makes things worse...

You want to boost a jet for its better escaping chances. You have either ignored, or you havent thought about those better characteristics giving a jet more chances to engage other jets in a dogfight. The problem with you is that you want to boost offensive side, as opposed to defensive side...

If both pilots are theoretically equal, but the F15 one does a maneuver that the MiG pilot didn't expect or anything, the F15 should get away. Easy as that.

And it doesnt? It does.

Get MiG close on your tail. Break, go for loop, get rear view, break as soon as you see MiG being at machine gun angle at you, which you can recognize, as MiGs nose is pointing at your cockpit, break. Repeat the loops and breaks. One way to do it.

The problem isn't the Su being too strong but the F35 being to weak, so you're mixing up two completely different issues.

''

F35B is weak for a reason. Its not a dogfighter. Its USMCs "all around" jet. You can say it sucks "all around". F35B is weak, indeed, but how do you boost a F35B without killing the balance with the MiGs? Complete jet balance can not be done without tweaking ALL of them a bit. Tweaking one-two a LOT does not give the same result as tweaking all of them a little.

How can I blame the ATA system for inferior jets? Granted, back then when you had to REALLY get him to make a mistake and fire the missiles, those issues weren't so obvious, but still they were already there.

So you just have to adapt. No, you cant take that Eagle into the open skies over AA and MiGs airspace. No, you have to hide now, strike when a strike is ńeeded and you have a target. I have a problem with ATA relying on missiles which work unequally. I dont have a problem with the need to hide in the skies. Whats the problem? What cant you handle? You CAN escape the MiG with the F15, its not impossible. I have done it, I am doing it and I wil do it on constant basis, why cant you?

You know what the problem is with that? Yes, it may work great if you're out for pints in the F15, but meanwhile the main target of the F18, the Su34 is bombing the **** out of your team's landing forces.

Who can you blame? You can blame 2 people. The ******* bastard in the F18 who wont give you proper support. Or you can blame yourself for taking a jet that just isnt good at ATA. F15/Su-34/Su-30MKII are not dogfighters. Dont expect maneuverability to ditch OpFor fighters with ease.

Actually I yet have to see many people agreeing on the F18 being the best of the jets. But who knows, maybe that's just a matter of taste in this particular case.

Good turn radius, 600 rounds of ammo, great roll speed, AB is low, but people in F35B are used to 10 seconds of juice, its slow in speed, but you can ALWAYS slow the OpFor jets down with locking on to them and slowing them down as they turn. And... missile deflector shield (aww, Star Wars LOL). Whats there not to like?

Definding is (in r/l aswell as in BF2) always easier if you have a team that is at least not exclusively consisting of retards.
And yes, on the bigger picture, it might make sense, still not enough to justify giving the USMC pilots such crappy planes.

I want aerial balance as much as the next player. However I also aknowledge that aerial balance isnt just a matter of tweaking one jet. In order to get balance in the air, you have to tweak ALL jets, the missiles, lock on ranges and a lot of **** with it. Having said that, Im working on such balance right now. (maneuverability and armament-wise). DICE has to work on missile hit detection inbalance, after that, they can ditch the air combat because its really not broken that much that you cant play.

Btw on Mashtur, the BH actually didn't give the USMC the total superiority, it was just the people too stupid to counter it and going head to head with the guns.

Theres no teamwork in BF2 and all teams consist of vast majority of challenged people, is what I think about the game/players for a long time now. So, BHAWK in Mashtuur was overpowered in terms of regular pubbing, where people dont think. They just throw **** around the place...

The F35 is even worse than the F15 actually because on these maps you have just the F35 so the other side maintains complete air superiority... not a good thing for any kind of balance.

Not that much of a problem, theres 2 cannons for Essex, and people love to forget that... In theory, there is balance. In practice...

The BF series aren't thought to be an arcade shooter. Ever heard an interview with the "inventor" of the series? What he wanted to do is combine several simulations into one game so you could do all that stuff, not another Quake/CS/UT clone...

Thats hardly what it is today. Everyone will laugh at "BF2 is a military simulator"... I know I would.

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

4 missiles or 6, what will change? Nothing. A jet will still either be good at dogfighting or not. You just have more missiles youre going to waste, with you. Payload has no importance. It DID have an importance in pre-1.2, but not its mostly symbolic. As soon as DICE will get the missiles work equal for all, that is.

With the missile hit inconsistency we have now, it does amtter actually, but that never was my point anyway.

And it shouldnt! Which is my main point. F15 shouldnt engage the enemy fighter, except for "moment of opportunity" shots, which it can do right now aswell. Your idea of "self defense" is wrong. I BF2, in a bomber, its none of your concern what the OpFor fighter does, you bomb, you disappear, and thats it! You want to pick a fight, you get in the F18!

And once again 1002nd time. You just don't get is ha? ALL I SAID WAS IT SHOULD BE POSSIBLE TO GET AWAY EASIER!!! GET AWAY!!!! GET AWAY!!!!!! HOW OFTEN UNTIL YOU GET IT??? GET AWAy GET AWAY GET AWAY!!! GET AWAY DOESN'T MEAN THE SAME AS ACTIVELY PICK A DOGFIGHT! /rant over

No, but youre hinting that bombers in BF2 should be good at ATA fight. Im saying they shouldnt.

to continue... GET AWAY!!! GET AWAY!!! THEY SHOULD HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF GETTING AWAY!!!!! WHEN WE WOULD BOOST IT UP A BIT IT WOULD STILL BE A BIT INFERIOR THUS GIVING THE MiG BETTER CHANCES OF ESCAPING!!!

Its mostly up to the pilot. Mostly because seriously, if the other jet is "created" for ATA and yours is for ATS, the other jet should and will have an upper hand in the fight. Doesnt mean you dont have a chance. You always have a chance. Look at Su-34 vs F35B fight, Su turn radius in horizontal turns is OK, JSF can catch up with that, but the moment Su-34 goes for the vertical spiral, loops or multiple split-S, F35B cannon keep up, unless the pilot has mastered the free chase cam mode. Su-34 not only has a "chance" of evading the F35B, it usually does. Im not saying I personally cant handle them, I use them as cannon targets, but the moment theres a great pilot in that jet, it will be pisshard for me to keep up with it. I have to utilize every trick I have, startig from spotting, up to free cam and chase at different altitudes. This is not how its supposed to be. And luckily, against F15 it isnt...

That's the whole point... eliminating cheap kills... if the Su34 actually has a chance of getting away, it's a challenging game. And I can still hunt them down quite often in the F35, but if they do get away, I think yea.. . next time I'll get you thus makeing the game more interesting.

I guess Im saying that youre not talking about "getting away", youre talking about "getting away and engaging", which it shouldnt be capable of. If both pilots are equal, in bomber and fighter, the bomber should go down. Its up to the pilots now to duke it out.

If that's what you are saying, you're saying wrong things. I don't like to rely on heavy caps lock usage again, so if you didn't get it until now, you'll probably never get it anyway.
If both pilots are theoretically equal, but the F15 one does a maneuver that the MiG pilot didn't expect or anything, the F15 should get away. Easy as that.

I agree with you that the F15 is not that good. But only because the other bombers are vastly superior to F15. They should all be equal, either equally bad like F15, or... which I wouldnt like that much... equally capable like the Su-34. In the same time the F35B should be upped a bit so it can actually stay behind the Su in loop wars. Hell, if we look at it, the bombers should have 2 magazines of 5 set flares with them, to make up for the bad perfomance (hypothetically speaking, if they would be all as bad as F15). You want bombers to be better defended with boosted offense. Well, you should be trying to boost their defense, which would be an extra set of flares, or a shorter reload time. Like 15 seconds instead of 30.

The problem isn't the Su being too strong but the F35 being to weak, so you're mixing up two completely different issues.

Well, you can blame the crooked ATA missile system for that one. Apart from a few anomalies, its not the aerial balerina it used to be.

How can I blame the ATA system for inferior jets? Granted, back then when you had to REALLY get him to make a mistake and fire the missiles, those issues weren't so obvious, but still they were already there.

You see, youre actually where I am. I too want dogfights to be won by the best pilot with best tricks and maneuvers, with jets backing their skills up. But right now, the war isnt in maneuvers, its in positioning. If I would guess, you still have adaption problems. You hide, you strike, you GTFO and hide again. If youre spotted, you pray. With all my wingmen, I have a system. if Im bombing and Im spotted, I use the "NEGATIVE" message in the comm, and they look me up and help me out. I suggest you find yourself a couple of dogfighter buds and develop a system yourself.

You know what the problem is with that? Yes, it may work great if you're out for pints in the F15, but meanwhile the main target of the F18, the Su34 is bombing the **** out of your team's landing forces.

Many would agree that the Hornet is the best dogfighter in the game. I personally prefer it over J10 for example, any day of the week. F15 is inferior compared to all bombers, agreed. F35B is inferior to all fighters, again, agreed. F18, disagreed.

Actually I yet have to see many people agreeing on the F18 being the best of the jets. But who knows, maybe that's just a matter of taste in this particular case.

But lets have a look at the bigger picture, shall we? Most maps where USMC plays with inferior gear, they are at OFFENSE, while opposition is at DEFENSE. To make the game more challenging and interesting, the offense is at a disadvantage (challenge?), while defense has advantage. Look at OCS, it has MiG, which is on par with the Hornet, Su-34, which exceeds the Eagle, it has mobile AA and a ****load of armor around. Dont you think thats actually a very good idea from DICEs part? if you want to take it easy, you play MEC, you want a challenge, you swap to USMC.

Unfortunately USMC is usually filled with wannabe NAVY SEAL younglings... but thats besides the point. Mashtuur was probably the only map where USMC has a total superiority through the BHAWK. Theoretically, most maps are USMC on offense and at a disadvantage both in positioning and gear. Its not an excuse, but an observation. Doesnt mean the maps play out with USMC losing all the time. Just saying that the poker game starts with USMC having worst cards.

Definding is (in r/l aswell as in BF2) always easier if you have a team that is at least not exclusively consisting of retards.
And yes, on the bigger picture, it might make sense, still not enough to justify giving the USMC pilots such crappy planes.
Btw on Mashtur, the BH actually didn't give the USMC the total superiority, it was just the people too stupid to counter it and going head to head with the guns.

Better, agree. Equal to their OpFor counterparts? On F15 case I might even agree, on F35B, no...

The F35 is even worse than the F15 actually because on these maps you have just the F35 so the other side maintains complete air superiority... not a good thing for any kind of balance.

Because real life arguments in arcade shooter where everything theoretically is balanced for gameplay, dont count. You understand?

The BF series aren't thought to be an arcade shooter. Ever heard an interview with the "inventor" of the series? What he wanted to do is combine several simulations into one game so you could do all that stuff, not another Quake/CS/UT clone...

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

f18 is far superior to the mig29!! mig29 = missile magnet like the f35, f18 = ultimate missile dodger.
but handling wise they are reasonably close.

The missile issue needs to be adressed anyway, so its out of the question. I personally think next to CTD issues, missile hit inbalances should be DICEs second priority.

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

No its not. I find F18 to be actually superior to the MiG because you can take the F18 as an enhanced (although slower) version of the F35B which I have most experience with out of all the fighters. In loops, the MiG is only slightly superior. I can say that most pilots agree that MiG vs F18 is the closest match in the game, if we say the missiles would hit on equal basis.

f18 is far superior to the mig29!! mig29 = missile magnet like the f35, f18 = ultimate missile dodger.
but handling wise they are reasonably close.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

See, even my first post didn't mean in any way that it has to be faster than the MiG or J10 I thought I could expect that people would take weaponry into consideration.

4 missiles or 6, what will change? Nothing. A jet will still either be good at dogfighting or not. You just have more missiles youre going to waste, with you. Payload has no importance. It DID have an importance in pre-1.2, but not its mostly symbolic. As soon as DICE will get the missiles work equal for all, that is.

Capable... YES, armed to do the Job... NO!

And it shouldnt! Which is my main point. F15 shouldnt engage the enemy fighter, except for "moment of opportunity" shots, which it can do right now aswell. Your idea of "self defense" is wrong. I BF2, in a bomber, its none of your concern what the OpFor fighter does, you bomb, you disappear, and thats it! You want to pick a fight, you get in the F18!

Actually I have to say I didn't knew he numbers before I read your post but it always seemed to me that the AB made you turn faster aswell (which is not logical anyway) in BF2, so I though the faster the better, but yes, considering this, they should probably just make the F15 just more maneuverable.

It doesnt actually decrease your turn radius, it increases it (just a tad), but since youre moving faster, you get the illusion you turn tighter. You go through a turn faster, but the turn radius itsself increases. Although just a bit.

Just for the fun of it. If you'd stop acting like a prick you'd probably notice how ironic that post of him was.

Im your mirror reflection.

Not sure what you are pointing towards here as I never said the ground attack planes should be the best ATA fighters...

No, but youre hinting that bombers in BF2 should be good at ATA fight. Im saying they shouldnt.

Yeah right never dnied that, but you still shouldn't be that much of an easy target.

Its mostly up to the pilot. Mostly because seriously, if the other jet is "created" for ATA and yours is for ATS, the other jet should and will have an upper hand in the fight. Doesnt mean you dont have a chance. You always have a chance. Look at Su-34 vs F35B fight, Su turn radius in horizontal turns is OK, JSF can catch up with that, but the moment Su-34 goes for the vertical spiral, loops or multiple split-S, F35B cannon keep up, unless the pilot has mastered the free chase cam mode. Su-34 not only has a "chance" of evading the F35B, it usually does. Im not saying I personally cant handle them, I use them as cannon targets, but the moment theres a great pilot in that jet, it will be pisshard for me to keep up with it. I have to utilize every trick I have, startig from spotting, up to free cam and chase at different altitudes. This is not how its supposed to be. And luckily, against F15 it isnt...

Wait... how can my suggestion of making them more capable of getting away not have anything to do with getting away? Right now, you're confusing me... just a bit.

I guess Im saying that youre not talking about "getting away", youre talking about "getting away and engaging", which it shouldnt be capable of. If both pilots are equal, in bomber and fighter, the bomber should go down. Its up to the pilots now to duke it out.

That was suggested by a group called "Fighter Mafia" which wanted a smaller, cheaper plane that could be deployed in masses, while the F15 eventually proved to be more than capable of dogfighting with over 100 kills to zero losses in air combat over it's history (the only loss ever was a FF accident in a Japanese training due to a faulty AAM)

Many would agree that it was mostly USAF superior training.

I'm not sure what you do, but I've played every of the jets and I can follow all turns of the F15 when flying a MiG, they are usually easy prey (unless my missiles magically slant off before exploding)

I agree with you that the F15 is not that good. But only because the other bombers are vastly superior to F15. They should all be equal, either equally bad like F15, or... which I wouldnt like that much... equally capable like the Su-34. In the same time the F35B should be upped a bit so it can actually stay behind the Su in loop wars. Hell, if we look at it, the bombers should have 2 magazines of 5 set flares with them, to make up for the bad perfomance (hypothetically speaking, if they would be all as bad as F15). You want bombers to be better defended with boosted offense. Well, you should be trying to boost their defense, which would be an extra set of flares, or a shorter reload time. Like 15 seconds instead of 30.

I with "all-means" you mean slower and less maneuverable, then you're right.
I'm not complaining that if he's better that he shouldn't get the kill, but right now it's a bit easy sometimes, and that's all I ever meant no matter how much you twist my words.

Well, you can blame the crooked ATA missile system for that one. Apart from a few anomalies, its not the aerial balerina it used to be.

You're just assuming that I'm a bad pilot, which, as a matter fact you can't know. O won't consider myself the best pilot out there (well maybe the best A-10 pilot ). I just say what I see. And what I see is that if I man the F15, every more or less decent pilot has an easy shot on me (like F35 versus J10) while if I'm the one in the MiG, I have an easy shot on the F15, so I suggest making the difference a bit less so it's a bit more challenging.

You see, youre actually where I am. I too want dogfights to be won by the best pilot with best tricks and maneuvers, with jets backing their skills up. But right now, the war isnt in maneuvers, its in positioning. If I would guess, you still have adaption problems. You hide, you strike, you GTFO and hide again. If youre spotted, you pray. With all my wingmen, I have a system. if Im bombing and Im spotted, I use the "NEGATIVE" message in the comm, and they look me up and help me out. I suggest you find yourself a couple of dogfighter buds and develop a system yourself.

Youve got one set of flares, a schoolbus for a jet, now you need a buddy in that Hornet.

You're right that the difference is not that notable with the F18, but still it is there which doesn't help the situation at all (like having both an inferior ground attack plane AND a (if only slightly) inferior fighter doesn't help too much for balance, does it?)

Many would agree that the Hornet is the best dogfighter in the game. I personally prefer it over J10 for example, any day of the week. F15 is inferior compared to all bombers, agreed. F35B is inferior to all fighters, again, agreed. F18, disagreed.

But lets have a look at the bigger picture, shall we? Most maps where USMC plays with inferior gear, they are at OFFENSE, while opposition is at DEFENSE. To make the game more challenging and interesting, the offense is at a disadvantage (challenge?), while defense has advantage. Look at OCS, it has MiG, which is on par with the Hornet, Su-34, which exceeds the Eagle, it has mobile AA and a ****load of armor around. Dont you think thats actually a very good idea from DICEs part? if you want to take it easy, you play MEC, you want a challenge, you swap to USMC.

Unfortunately USMC is usually filled with wannabe NAVY SEAL younglings... but thats besides the point. Mashtuur was probably the only map where USMC has a total superiority through the BHAWK. Theoretically, most maps are USMC on offense and at a disadvantage both in positioning and gear. Its not an excuse, but an observation. Doesnt mean the maps play out with USMC losing all the time. Just saying that the poker game starts with USMC having worst cards.

The real problem is that both the F35 and the F15 are just too bad and should be made better for THE GAME BALANCE' sake.

Better, agree. Equal to their OpFor counterparts? On F15 case I might even agree, on F35B, no...

The F15 is wrong for both game balance and r/lness, so why is it so bad I give some real life facts to back up my point more?

Because real life arguments in arcade shooter where everything theoretically is balanced for gameplay, dont count. You understand?

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

Who said anything about basing my post on your last one?

See, even my first post didn't mean in any way that it has to be faster than the MiG or J10 I thought I could expect that people would take weaponry into consideration.

Does "air superiority fighter" mean a "maneuverable, fast and electronically well-equipped" ATA capable fighter? I think common sense tells us, it would.

Capable... YES, armed to do the Job... NO!

Do you know the main reason why MiG is able to fight F35B so easily? Apart from its superior turn speed, the MiG is slower than the JSF, so when the F35B pilot decides to use multiple maneuvers to escape, the MiG is left behind, far enough so he can see all your maneuvers and just zoon through them in straight line, while keeping a solid lock all the time. Faster speed in BF2 doesnt automatically mean a jet would be better.

Actually I have to say I didn't knew he numbers before I read your post but it always seemed to me that the AB made you turn faster aswell (which is not logical anyway) in BF2, so I though the faster the better, but yes, considering this, they should probably just make the F15 just more maneuverable.

Then why post it? He had a point, he wanted to make it clear.

Just for the fun of it. If you'd stop acting like a prick you'd probably notice how ironic that post of him was.

Ones a dedicated bomber with 5 bombs and a gunners LGMs as primary weapons, making it a ATS focused jet PRIMARILY. Other is a 6 missile equipped maneuverable jet which main focus is to take down those well equipped ATS-focused jets, making them fighters. The bombs on the fighters are a little extra, and everyone knows that pilots should have skills to actually use them effectively (by effectively I mean, bomb armor with precision and whatnot). So why pick on something youre agreeing with, anyway?

Not sure what you are pointing towards here as I never said the ground attack planes should be the best ATA fighters...

Which makes it again, an attempt to ridicule a statement he would agree with in basics. So why do it?

Same as above. Dunno what you mean.

Shift in firepower and capabilities to have better characteristics in ATS capabilities, MUST have a negative effect on ATA capabilities. The logic in this is simple.

Yeah right never dnied that, but you still shouldn't be that much of an easy target.

Your suggestion has "nothing" to do with "getting away". "Getting away" means better maneuverability, you want to bring bombers on par with fighters so they become great BOMBERS AND dogfighters? If you choose a bomber, you better know how to escape the fight, not start one. If you choose a fighter, you better know how to start a fight, not escape one (aswell as focus on ATA, not ATS), I dont see how this logic can be left unseen?

Wait... how can my suggestion of making them more capable of getting away not have anything to do with getting away? Right now, you're confusing me... just a bit.

In terms of RL or BF2? It doesnt in BF2, but it does in RL. Even if a little, it still does. Mass and drag would be first two coming to my mind. In BF2 you have 4X4 (5?) LGMs, 5 bombs and 4 missiles, vs 6 missiles and 2 bombs. Again, difference is there.

Yeah, in r/l you don't even have the possibility to carry so much guided death with you and the whole dogfigting is becoming more and more obsolete because you fire beyond visual range anyway nowadays. (which would make the F35 vastly superior because the first thing you will see of it is a locked-on missile heading for you, which basically means you're f-ed.)

Established fact is also that the F15 isnt that great in close-in dogfights, with F16 for example outperforming it. Its higher fuel load gives an edge because it can perform longer in a dogfight.

That was suggested by a group called "Fighter Mafia" which wanted a smaller, cheaper plane that could be deployed in masses, while the F15 eventually proved to be more than capable of dogfighting with over 100 kills to zero losses in air combat over it's history (the only loss ever was a FF accident in a Japanese training due to a faulty AAM)

So, now we get from "more missile payload" to "a little bit slower"?

Do you mean AAM? Then I never said that... I always said that it should be closer in performance to the fighters thus giving on-par pilots a better chance of escaping.

Do you want an engagement monster or a jet capable of breaking a dogfight? Because a skilled pilot CAN break a fight. One way to break a fight with a MiG is to get the MiG as close as possible and then create a series of multiple maneuvers (like in F35B case). Speaking of F35B...

I'm not sure what you do, but I've played every of the jets and I can follow all turns of the F15 when flying a MiG, they are usually easy prey (unless my missiles magically slant off before exploding)

F-15
Diameter of turn: 332ft
Time to do 360 turn: 8 Seconds
Maximum speed at 300ft: 1070
Maximum speed at 800ft: 1900
Maximum speed at 300ft with AB: 1270
Maximum speed at 800ft with AB: 2540
Time required to do a 360 turn using only
Yaw at 300ft: 22 Seconds
Time required to do a roll at 300ft: 3 Seconds
AB fuel: 13.5 Seconds

MiG-29
Diameter of turn: 275ft
Time to do 360 turn: 7 Seconds
Maximum speed at 300ft: 1110
Maximum speed at 800ft: 1870
Maximum speed at 300ft with AB: 1320
Maximum speed at 800ft with AB: 2720
Time required to do a 360 turn using only
Yaw at 300ft: 20.8 Seconds
Time required to do a roll at 300ft: 2.5 Seconds
AB fuel: 14 Seconds

F-35B
Diameter of turn: 328ft
Time to do 360 turn: 8 Seconds
Maximum speed at 300ft: 1160
Maximum speed at 800ft: 1880
Maximum speed at 300ft with AB: 1550
Maximum speed at 800ft with AB: 3260-3540
Time required to do a 360 turn using only
Yaw at 300ft: 18 Seconds
Time required to do a roll at 300ft: 1.75 Seconds
AB fuel: 10.2 Seconds

Compare the data. Youll see that by default, youve got the means to escape the fight in the F15. Against a great pilot it can be piss-hard, but seriously- if he has a better jet, and hes better than you are, why are you complaining?

I with "all-means" you mean slower and less maneuverable, then you're right.
I'm not complaining that if he's better that he shouldn't get the kill, but right now it's a bit easy sometimes, and that's all I ever meant no matter how much you twist my words.

But it has to be "easier" for the MiG to trail F15, than vice versa. F15 doesnt have to chase a MiG anyway because its not its purpose. If you want F15 to do the job of F18, then its insane. If F18 doesnt give you cover, thats BF2 for you, stats and no teamwork. And dont give me that "half decent" stuff, A half decent pilot wont chase down a decent pilot, so you must be less than decent to match the chasers less than decent pilot.

Yes for the 1000th time, I said make it so it is just A BIT SLOWER, (or actually maneuverable)
not on-par and not superior. You can make that point 1000 more times and it will always be wrong, so please refrain from doing so, it's tiring.

If we would want to match the F15 to make it closer to Su-34, to make it have slightly better maneuvering characteristics, no problem. If we would want to make it a dogfighter, even though its a bomber, then we DO have a problem. F15 doesnt even have to engage the Su. Its got 4 missiles for a reason. Although I would only give them 2. You should fire upon opportunity and GTFO before youre being engaged. You have a worse plane than a fighter, its a clear sign that your job is to bomb and evade. Isnt it a simple concept to grasp?

See above statement, replace 1000th with 1001st.

Right, more missile payload will really give a bonus in "escaping". If you want to talk about escaping, talk numbers. F15 escaping from a MiG depends largely on the pilot. If the MiG is manned with Mr Awesome, and youre Mr I-just-watched-Top-Gun, then its logical to assume that youre "fvcked"... because hes got the better plane, hes got the skills. You dont have either of those. Youre dead. Accept it. This wouldnt be the case with pre-1.2 missiles, but now we have missiles that hit, so it all depends on what youve got. And if your F18 fella is busy chasing stats... well... you get the point.

You're just assuming that I'm a bad pilot, which, as a matter fact you can't know. O won't consider myself the best pilot out there (well maybe the best A-10 pilot ). I just say what I see. And what I see is that if I man the F15, every more or less decent pilot has an easy shot on me (like F35 versus J10) while if I'm the one in the MiG, I have an easy shot on the F15, so I suggest making the difference a bit less so it's a bit more challenging.

No its not. I find F18 to be actually superior to the MiG because you can take the F18 as an enhanced (although slower) version of the F35B which I have most experience with out of all the fighters. In loops, the MiG is only slightly superior. I can say that most pilots agree that MiG vs F18 is the closest match in the game, if we say the missiles would hit on equal basis.

You're right that the difference is not that notable with the F18, but still it is there which doesn't help the situation at all (like having both an inferior ground attack plane AND a (if only slightly) inferior fighter doesn't help too much for balance, does it?)

No, I dont mean in REAL LIFE terms. Im talking GAME WISE here. ONLY game wise. Thats my point. Its worse in maneuvering than all the fighters, excet for roll speed (arguably), its slower than most fighters in speed. Comparing it to Su-30 for example which I would class as a figher, because that sh!t is better than F35B, I say DICE did get F15 right, as they got the match with the concept "fighters>bombers". Id say the other 2 bombers are a little overpowered for their purpose. This isnt a big of a deal for maps where they face F18 though, but is a big deal when they face a F35B.

The real problem is that both the F35 and the F15 are just too bad and should be made better for THE GAME BALANCE' sake.

You want Real Life facts, great, but they have no place in "jet balance in BF2" type of threads.

The F15 is wrong for both game balance and r/lness, so why is it so bad I give some real life facts to back up my point more?

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

The F15E is my new love toy.....I bomb and bomb, evade Mig, Su, J10 pilot, then go back to bombing

Re: F-35b Vs J-10... Please Fix!

Chriiiiiiiiis

Wanna play some Oman action?