Are aircraft out of balance?

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

I hate you people sometimes.

How much chance does a single AT unit againts an APC? Depends on situation, right? And skill level and such? Right?

Now how much chance do 2 AT units have againts an APC? Chances have increased pretty much, havent they?

Now apply the same logic to jet situation.

What I hate to read from day to day is people crying for a 1 hit killer. Comeon guys. I didnt fly my ass off to be here as an easy 2 points for you!

[Legli]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

Voted neutral:

I have a grand total of 3 minutes in a jet so I can not comment on the air to air situation however I will raise some points about how I feel on foot.

Generally if a helicopter comes by I think that maybe I have a chance to take it down and will try - even on foot armed with small arms you can shoot it, it gives you a feeling of power and even maybe slight chance, if it is not very much.

The A.A. sites are ok against choppers as they can not escape the lock as easily as jets. Jets just fly by and bomb you or machine gun you, or just whatever they feel like. I only hit jets that are being totally stupid and flying directly at the emplacement, because then I don't need the lock.

Now, another sore point for me is that these jets don't bother taking out helicopters or any other major threats. Mainly they go straight past the other jet and to the mainbase of the enemy to commence baserape - not much good for the rest of your team, but a nice way to rack up easy points I suppose. Sure, I've met the odd pilot that when I say "Enemy armour spotted" will reply with a confirmation and blow it away, but thats the exception rather than the rule.

If jets stuck to their job rather than bombing guys on foot then it would not be so bad. If I'm in a tank or any other vehicle it makes a lot of sense, but just bombing individual soldiers gets on my nerves.

*Edit* In response to Chris_Redfields post - I don't think we want an easy kill, but a kill that requires as much ability as anything else, plus the great thing about AT guys is that they can spawn AND move, I don't see that happening too much with AA emplacements. Oh yeah, and the fact that the APC has very limited field of view (same as tanks) where as Jets and helicopters can get rid of the HUD.

[zipp0r]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

S2A still misses, and often. Even if a Pilot doesn't drop flares. Now granted, it hardly every misses if your target is flying in a straight line, but, what good is that for you? How many Jet pilots fly in a straight line?!

Hell, I can dodge it just by outrunning the locking distances. If it all comes down to it though, I drop flares and don't return until my flares recharge. Simple. I think about, "Hmmmm... I was in this area of the Map. The A.A. is here, I'll just strafe it and take it out and be back on my way".

The locking range needs to return. If this was done, the entire concept of "cannon" strafing A.A. would be moot. Either that, or add a "cannon" of some type to Static Anti-Air sites.

{WP}Paas

i'd say a good 60-70% will hit and they will follow you no matter what turns you do, althought in that 30-40% you can pull a few moves and it luckily misses, but its rare.

so you can dodge a missile by getting out of the locking distance? no you got out of range before/as it was fired, the tone means youve been locked onto as well as a missle chasing you. you didnt dodge anything.

the difference between aa range and pilots radar range is very small, after you line up and start shooting the aa is able to shoot back.

[RavenRealms]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

ppl play Karkand cus there are no planes to own them since they are most likly CANT FLY THEM.... yes a lot of BF2 players cant fly planes neither helicopters!!
1. becouse they suck and dont want to practise
2. becouse they dont have a joystick so they suck

Don't like joysticks. Prefer my trackball.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

*Edit* In response to Chris_Redfields post - I don't think we want an easy kill, but a kill that requires as much ability as anything else, plus the great thing about AT guys is that they can spawn AND move, I don't see that happening too much with AA emplacements. Oh yeah, and the fact that the APC has very limited field of view (same as tanks) where as Jets and helicopters can get rid of the HUD.

Shooting a tank from an APC or a jet, which is easier?

If a player in a jet has 400 hours, he shouldnt be downed by a player in an AA emplacement who just clicks and scores. Thats my "philosophy". There should be balance in skills.

I´d get rid of all AA emplacements and add an aditional Mobile AA for every 3 stinger sites per team. But thats just me.

[Consultant01]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

on the rare occasions that im near an AA site and use it, i kill several planes and several choppers in a few mins.
if you cant work out how to use them, then you should quit and play something else, maybe solitaire would be easier??

I've read some pointless posts in my time, but this one is fantastic.

Please, oh master of the AA, share your secrets with us... unless, as I suspect, they dont exist.

[jakswan]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

Mmmmm this was posted on EA forum so I'll repeat what I said there. Didn't want to do long post.

The first problem exists that people complain about all sorts, your average 'I only play Karkand player' hates tanks / apc's and basically doesn't want a Jet / Chopper getting in the way of an infantry game. I suspect they'd get owned in CS (really rather puzzled by what the hell their doing here) or Quake so we have to suffer them here. So this sort of player does want a insta kill weapon, it should or will never happen.

Then there is your more typical BF2 player, Jets choppers tanks reason why they bought the game in the first place but feel a little powerless against a Jet Pilot when either his team doesn't have a Jet Pilot or his Jet Pilot is just a plank.

I agree stingers don't cut it and could be a lot better two missiles and more mobileAA would make it much better.

Wandering off the point a bit, I don't think we'll see anymore patch's after 1.3 and 1.3 is finished so what's done is done.

[Consultant01]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

yeah I agree with most of your points and what attracted me to the BF series years ago with BF1942 was the total combat experience and the rock-paper-scisors gameplay in that everything has its logical equal, its logical inferior and its logical superior.

In BF1942 the planes were slower for the most part (Prop planes, duh) and the AA was all 100% static flak guns, a skilled AA user could lead a plane at most any altitude and have it smoking and running in short order. A fighter plane had guns only and was a good counter to the bombers, and the bomber planes were a logical counter to some infantry but mostly tanks and other ground-vehicles.

Tanks in BF1942 had their logical counterparts as well, AT mines and Bazookas in the hands of smart engineers and AT troops could deal with these iron beasts in the right dose but generally not before the tank made its impact on the battle felt.


Fast-forward to BF2 and the relationship between ground pounders and armor/transports is essentially the same as in BF1942... every vehicle is in danger of a coordinated AT attack, a sneaky C4 expert and a tricky engineer putting mines in blind spots, Tanks and APC's and Transport vehicles are in perfect harmony.

Planes in BF2 are for the most part balanced in their ability to take out infantry and vehicles with bombs and are even susceptable to other planes if their attacker is a skilled dog-fighter...

What is lacking, in my opinion however, is the consistent ground-based threat to attacking aircraft. That's about it. So from this thread I've learned that stationary AA Missles are "totally balanced" and if you cant use them you are some kind of mentally challenged idiot. I'd love to believe this but I cant fathom how it is the case. I've yet to see a reasonable "how to" from these people who claim AA is balanced or powerful in its current state... I mean, if its that balanced and fair I would have expected half a dozen links to how-to posts or screenshots of techniques or whatever... but they havent come... just loud-mouthed jet-jockeys aspousing to have mastered AA and claiming the idiocy of anybody who cant figure it out...Ahh, even digital pilots are hot-headed ego-maniacs who think the world revolves around them.


How do you know a fighter-pilot is at your party?

He'll tell you.


How do you know a gamer wants to be a figher pilot?

They tell you you suck.

[N2K]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

I think leave it as it is, if the J10 is better let it, a good piolet can pawn a j10, points at metallicag., and just think of the j10 as "the flying noob tube"

[zipp0r]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

I've read some pointless posts in my time, but this one is fantastic.

Please, oh master of the AA, share your secrets with us... unless, as I suspect, they dont exist.

yea really pointless...

when people have played the game for alot ****ing longer than you, they are more experienced...

i really hope these: http://bf2s.com/player/67051929/ arent your stats, because they kinda show you as someone thats had the game for 5mins and has no knowledge of the planes(flown twice with no kills, 2 deaths and 2mins total flying time) or how to make aa effective.

but your air defence looks ok!! you'll learn the tricks to using it as you play more.

[Paas]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

The same thing happens with Tanks in Karkand, they usually avoid each other and go for the raping of the troops. Ofcourse there will always be those people who are persistent and take down the tank with their tank. Same with jets. Some idiots will avoid each other, some will go after each other and nothing else, some inbetween. I've seen it happen in planes, choppers, tanks etc.. on various maps. Just one of those things really.

Now, factor in the ideal that in the Anti-Jet situation "JETS" are commonly known as the balancing factor in themselves.

For instance; many would say," Well, you need to get a good fighter pilot in order to stop the air rape!". Yet, the same doesn't apply for every other vehicle. A Tank doesn't need another Tank to destory it, hell, that isn't even factored into the "needs" on most maps. Same for APCs, Helos, everything; except Jets.

Now, when two Jets just avoid each other in favor of strafing rounds on the ground pounders for a good 15 minutes you run into a delima. The small balance factor that was in play is no longer in play so effectively all you have to take out a Jet is a short-locking Static Anti-Air, and the few and far between Mobile Anti-Air.

...from a ground perspective it gets very annoying. In the air, it's a free-kill-a'thon.

{WP}Paas

[jakswan]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

Hey lay off the jet jockey bashing!

http://bf2s.com/player/28362292/

In their defence as I've said there are a lot of players that do just want insta kill weapons then there are players that just want something a bit more potent than it is now. Thing is the two get merged then one side flames the other and then it just goes downhill from there.

[zipp0r]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

...from a ground perspective it gets very annoying. In the air, it's a free-kill-a'thon.

{WP}Paas

i dont think so, if a player is good then he deserves the kills he gets in the plane. its a killathon for me yes, i'll go after everything, planes, choppers, boats, infantry, tanks e.t.c

maybe if you were better you could manage more than your average of 22kills per hour in a plane ? oh wait you play karkand all day like most other people that cant fly and complain on forums that planes are too easy. :laugh:

[Paas]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

i'd say a good 60-70% will hit and they will follow you no matter what turns you do

Bull. You can outturn S2A. I've had it done "Millions Upon Millions" of times against me. Granted, I'm not as lucky as some; yet I've watched as a pilot completely neglects flares and goes untouched by my Anti-Air missiles.

althought in that 30-40% you can pull a few moves and it luckily misses, but its rare.

Play a round of Wake. Fly at the Carrier and stafe along it's side with a Jet. Now, if one of the carriers Anti-Air guns was to unload a missile payload on you "WITHOUT" flares and you're moving at that angle odds are only 2 missiles out of the entire payload will hit you.

...now, if you factor in flares, maybe 1 missile out of the entire payload will hit you.

Which says a lot. It says that Jets moving at certain angles in conjucntion to the Anti-Air that's being aimed at that run a very low risk of getting hit. So, a reasonable A.A. gunner, such as myself, knows to only fire at Jets come at me, or away from me.

Now... a Jet coming "AT" me is probably going to take out the site with out without a indicator. He knows the danger of having a bit of life loss, and he would prefer not to risk it. So, the timeframe for engagements in that instance is almost none.

Ok, so what about a Jet flying away? Easy prey right? No. Flares. Not saying anything wrong with the concept of them but they are the saving grace for a Jet when he's flying at the only angle were he can be engaged with a reasonably high success rate. So, you fire a missile at him, he either has to drop flares or run the risk of being torn out of the sky.

...yet, after he drops flares you won't get a second shot from even a semi-aware pilote. He will strafe you at your Statics weak spot, with or without you on it, and he will give you some cannon love that even satan would call perverted.

so you can dodge a missile by getting out of the locking distance?

Yes, take up my carrier example and you will see exactly what I'm talking about. Granted, you can argue, "The missile just missed you, you didn't dodge anything" until you're blue in the face; dun' care. I consider a missile that doesn't hit me, and is aimed at me, to be a dodged missile.

no you got out of range before/as it was fired, the tone means youve been locked onto as well as a missle chasing you.

...ok. I know this. Your point?

you didnt dodge anything.

Wait, you with your paragraph of assumptions and such are going to tell me I haven't dodged a missile before or that it's impossible to dodge a missile? You're kidding right? This isn't 1.2 mah' man, if missiles still couldn't be dodged don't you think the outcry from the Airborne community would be kinda', you know... LOUD?

I don't wanna' base my arguement off of outside factors though. So, go play a round of any map you choose, fly straight over an Anti-Air site and see if you're touched. It's the same concept as when a Helo "Tunnels" around a static site. If he's at the right distance the missiles cannot correctly compensate for his movements and he's darn near untouchable. This is a common thing for the small island on Wake.

the difference between aa range and pilots radar range is very small, after you line up and start shooting the aa is able to shoot back.

Ok. What are the figures then? I know there is a difference, but what is that difference and why is it there when the missiles are not "overbuffed" as they were considered by many in 1.2?

I doubt the merit of your claim here. I think you're just spewing but I'm willing to have an open mind if you can give me some concrete facts as to the distance A.A. locks vs. the visial and effective range of a Jet's cannon fire.

i dont think so, if a player is good then he deserves the kills he gets in the plane. its a killathon for me yes, i'll go after everything, planes, choppers, boats, infantry, tanks e.t.c

Wait. So just because you're good in a Jet you should be "graced" with the path of killing anything in site with very little chance of being shot down?

...well, if that's the logic going around can I get my old M203 back for Assault? I mean, I got good with it so obviously I deserved all of the kills I was getting regardless if a majority of the community though it was overpowered.

maybe if you were better you could manage more than your average of 22kills per hour in a plane ? oh wait you play karkand all day like most other people that cant fly and complain on forums that planes are too easy. :laugh:

If you had even half of a brain, you would know I don't play Vanilla anymore. Thus', I don't have ranks. Catch me on PRMM anyday though, I'll force feed you some Air Combat there if you like.

...and instead of coming up with half-brained cheap shots. How about coming back with a worthwhile debate?

...it seems like I have to explain myself to you stat-junkies everytime I give a perspective.

{WP}Paas

[dindysport81]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

This seems to be a topic for several people..it may be stronger but I suppose it does suck that us talking about it wont do anything......