article: loyalty

[pablo_m123]

"He never said that he "supported" narby, he said that he "respected" narby more."



well when someone says Im a loser and then talks about how much he respects my opponent, I take it as support.



"As for narby's contributions to cs and how that makes him a genius, that eludes me"



i was talking about how that guy immediately supported narby



"Don't try to put words in my mouth, either, if that's what you are trying to say"



i wasn't



"In your words, then, the community would be loyal to itself, which makes no sense in this context"



no, each member would be loyal to the "community," meaning an idea of a group of people who support each other and play the game. just like people are loyal to democracy as an idea. the community isn't a solid thing, it's the idea that many people can share an experience together.



"you defined loyalty on your own by using what I'd say is ambiguous and subjective terminology"



no, I was simply showing that the dictionary says loyalty is having tenderness towards, a strong bond with, and emotional sensations about something; then i said that these were not things to be taken lightly.



"You're equivocating CS to a plant or fishing rod before you even define "meaning" or "thing." "



Counter-Strike is a computer program. As I've said before, it is a whole lot of 1's and 0's. It has no purpose for existing other than to provide entertainment to people. It is not an idea or a person, it is an "object," just like your computer or the box it came in.



"I think that most people who say that they are loyal to CS (the game) are indeed talking about CS (the community). "



that was the whole point I was trying to make. these people are confusing two different things, until they sound like idiots.



"i'm loyal towards my fax machine."



the definition of loyal being "Faithful to a person, ideal, custom, cause, or duty " i think you would just be insane. try to replace the word loyal with faithful or steadfast or any synonym of loyal and you will see it makes no sense.



"I never said you were a fool, I simply disagreed without on a particular point."



considering you didn't even understand what my point was, I doubt it.



"You're still acting obnoxiously"



how is that? because I disagree with you?



"yea, ur talking about how ur the king of the universe and your opinions are always better."



you just proved my point. you have no idea what we are talking about, and all you are doing is flaming me because I said you didn't know what the topic was. you really are disabled



"And now I will plant my flag, so to speak, and state what I believe to be fact, that the community came FROM Counterstrike, or rather was brought together by it."



that is what your problem is. you still think cs is some kind of living entity, which can do things like that. the PEOPLE brought THEMSELVES together. the community did not come from cs, how is that even possible?? the community came from your average joe gamer, who decided he liked talking with these guys about this game.



"I don't understand the reasoning behind saying that, at least in the sense that Exo portrayed loyalty in his article, we are loyal to the community."



that's what we are saying. Exo misused the word loyal when he should have instead used something like "addicted".



"As far as i'm concerned, "loyalty" almost always involves some sort of sacrifice, some sort of obligation, tit-for-tat, which makes in inapplicable when referring to the "relationship" of gamer and a single game."



finally someone knows what I'm talking about. when you play cs you don't sacrifice your social life, IT IS TAKEN FROM YOU. BIG DIFFERENCE.



"The "best" way to waste time is to do something pointlessly. The best way to put forth your ideas and test them for the sake of progress is to have an argument, and don't you forget it."



i was referring to internet arguments, which most of the time come down to doing something pointlessly.



"Saying that arguments are the best way to waste time is simply an admission that you're talking fluff for no good reason, not unlike a stereotypical Valley Girl. It's an admission that you're talking out of your ass."



I am not talking fluff though. And what does "talking out of my ass" mean exactly? they don't have that on dictionary.com

i dont think I'm talking out of my ass, I'm just having an argument with people who won't understand, which is pointless. I have looked at this situation from every angle, especially from the ones submitted by other people, and every time I come back to where I am now. If I have not been convinced that I am wrong, and no one will truly listen to what I am saying, then I do think that is pointless argument.



"If you're that bored, talk to a fucking wall."



talking to people like narby, who refuse to try to see my side, is basically the same as talking to a wall.



"you can be loyal to the spirit of the game by playing as a team, remembering objectives and helping the noobs."



exactly, but the spirit of the game is different from the game by itself. the spirit of the game is affected by the players, but the game itself can never change. It will always just be cs

[fantasychrono]

The really sad part is, I'm about to go do some USAMO's rather than do this.



At least I'll be doing something intelligent rather than reading these posts.

[narby]

the definition of loyal being "Faithful to a person, ideal, custom, cause, or duty " i think you would just be insane.

CS can be classed as a custom to some people, those in clans can also say It's their duty to play the game to support the team.

try to replace the word loyal with faithful or steadfast or any synonym of loyal and you will see it makes no sense

I am faithful to counter-strike, I play it everyday.

I am a faithful counter-strike fan.

I play CS loyally everyday.

I am a loyal Counter-strike fan.

I am a staunch supporter of counter-strike

CSnation loyally reports on the latest counter-strike news.

John remained faithful to counter-strike even after the release of SOF2.



Either way you cut it, you can still be loyal to a product or service. To say you're ``a loyal counter-strike fan'' is both acceptable and true. As i've already pointed out several times, it's very possible to be loyal to a product.

no, I was simply showing that the dictionary says loyalty is having tenderness towards, a strong bond with, and emotional sensations about something; then i said that these were not things to be taken lightly

You can form a strong bond with anything, people love thier cars and houses, thier dogs, other people, hell you can even have an emotional attachment to your blender (Enemy of the state anyone).

To suggest you can't share a bond with a computer game is untrue.



Share emotional sensations with? How about anger, fun, irritation.

talking to people like narby, who refuse to try to see my side, is basically the same as talking to a wall.

Well it works both ways. That statement was a grossly hypocritical. Apparently because I don't bow down to your every sentance and god forbid someone actually disagrees with your point of view *gasp*.

[puffycloud]

fantasychrono wrote..

The really sad part is, I'm about to go do some USAMO's rather than do this.



At least I'll be doing something intelligent rather than reading these posts.

Again, fantasychrono's insecurity with himself is shown through his subtle bragging.

[JdeFalconr]

pablo_m123 wrote...



that is what your problem is. you still think cs is some kind of living entity, which can do things like that. the PEOPLE brought THEMSELVES together. the community did not come from cs, how is that even possible?? the community came from your average joe gamer, who decided he liked talking with these guys about this game.

I think we're getting confused here on what we're discussing. I agree completely that the community is composed of "average joe gamers who decided they liked talking with these guys about this game." But these average people would have no reason to exist without Counterstrike first existing. The community was self-organized in response to Counterstrike's existance.

Counter-Strike is a computer program. As I've said before, it is a whole lot of 1's and 0's. It has no purpose for existing other than to provide entertainment to people. It is not an idea or a person, it is an "object," just like your computer or the box it came in.

But as narby pointed out in post #122, objects can produce effects beyond themselves in people. The World Trade Center towers were just hunks of steel and concrete, yet quite a few people experienced strong emotions that were either directly or indirectly caused by the Twin Towers' destruction. Inert objects can produce strong responses in people, emotional or otherwise. In the same way as the Twin Towers, photographs are just paper and some dried chemicals, yet they powerfully influence emotions. I'd say objects, while not being ideas or people in themselves, can still have ideas, people, and emotions either tied to them or directly evoked by them.

[pablo_m123]

narby wrote..

CS can be classed as a custom to some people, those in clans can also say It's their duty to play the game to support the team.



I am faithful to counter-strike, I play it everyday.

I am a faithful counter-strike fan.

I play CS loyally everyday.

I am a loyal Counter-strike fan.

I am a staunch supporter of counter-strike

CSnation loyally reports on the latest counter-strike news.

John remained faithful to counter-strike even after the release of SOF2.



Either way you cut it, you can still be loyal to a product or service. To say you're ``a loyal counter-strike fan'' is both acceptable and true. As i've already pointed out several times, it's very possible to be loyal to a product.



You can form a strong bond with anything, people love thier cars and houses, thier dogs, other people, hell you can even have an emotional attachment to your blender (Enemy of the state anyone).

To suggest you can't share a bond with a computer game is untrue.



Share emotional sensations with? How about anger, fun, irritation.



Well it works both ways. That statement was a grossly hypocritical. Apparently because I don't bow down to your every sentance and god forbid someone actually disagrees with your point of view *gasp*.

well have you tried to see my point of view? I have tried to see yours but I can't help but find it ridiculous that people would consider themselves loyal to a game.



let's say you are loyal to counter-strike as a product. what does that mean to you?



does that mean you will not play any other fps, because that would mean disloyalty??



does that mean if you don't play cs every day you are not loyal??



what does it mean to be a faithful cs fan??



how do you play a game loyally??



what makes you a staunch supporter of cs, as opposed to someone who isn't??



is CS Nation being loyal to "C:\Sierra\Counter-Strike" by reporting what some guys did in Houston??



how did John remain "faithful" to cs after sof2 was released?? did he continue to play it to show his support, or just because he thought it was a better game??



you say "brand loyalty," but I don't understand how cs is a brand.

there is only 1 cs, and cs is not something you need to continually purchase, like soap or cars. so it isn't a brand as is used in the term "brand-loyalty."



but is being loyal to something just having a strong bond with it?? no, of course not. being loyal to something involves, as someone else put it earlier, sacrifices and work.



you DO work and make sacrifices, but do you do it for the game, or for the people who play the game?



you DO have emotional experiences with the game, but are you having fun with the game itself, or with the people that you meet while playing? think about it:

"that clan match was fun, especially when those two guys got pissed and called us cheaters"

Vs, as you are putting it:

"I had so much fun playing CS last night, I think I am going to show my appreciation for that game by playing it again this morning. the people were nice too."



so think about all those times you made maps, and set up clan matches, and realize that you were not working for the game, the game was working for you. thus, you cannot be loyal to it, because you have done nothing to show loyalty. so stick THAT in your pipe and smoke it

Added @ [time="1031419508"]

JdeFalconr wrote..

I think we're getting confused here on what we're discussing. I agree completely that the community is composed of "average joe gamers who decided they liked talking with these guys about this game." But these average people would have no reason to exist without Counterstrike first existing. The community was self-organized in response to Counterstrike's existance.



But as narby pointed out in post #122, objects can produce effects beyond themselves in people. The World Trade Center towers were just hunks of steel and concrete, yet quite a few people experienced strong emotions that were either directly or indirectly caused by the Twin Towers' destruction. Inert objects can produce strong responses in people, emotional or otherwise. In the same way as the Twin Towers, photographs are just paper and some dried chemicals, yet they powerfully influence emotions. I'd say objects, while not being ideas or people in themselves, can still have ideas, people, and emotions either tied to them or directly evoked by them.

yes you are absolutely right about the "tied to them" thing, but no one says that they are loyal to the twin towers or to a photograph. they say that they are loyal to the ideas associated with them. the twin towers really are just a bunch of steel; but they symbolize all the hard work, effort and so forth that REAL PEOPLE have put into this country. so you would not say you were loyal to the twin towers, you would say you were loyal to the country and ideas that made those twin towers possible.

[narby]

well have you tried to see my point of view? I have tried to see yours but I can't help but find it ridiculous that people would consider themselves loyal to a game.

It may be ridiculous, but that doesn't change its validity.

you say "brand loyalty," but I don't understand how cs is a brand.

there is only 1 cs, and cs is not something you need to continually purchase, like soap or cars. so it isn't a brand as is used in the term "brand-loyalty."

Just because a company only makes one product (for example counter-strike (until cz is released) doesn't mean you cannot be loyal to that product.

People who play CS a great deal, more than any other game they may have, are being loyal to counter-strike as a game.

you DO work and make sacrifices, but do you do it for the game, or for the people who play the game?

I play CS because I enjoy the game, I don't especially like the community.

Personally I think other games have communities that are perhaps more mature than the CS community, but that doesn't mean i'm going to go play that game. I simply would rather play CS.

you DO have emotional experiences with the game, but are you having fun with the game itself, or with the people that you meet while playing? think about it:

"that clan match was fun, especially when those two guys got pissed and called us cheaters"

Vs, as you are putting it:

"I had so much fun playing CS last night, I think I am going to show my appreciation for that game by playing it again this morning. the people were nice too."

So if you replace Counter-strike with say, Quake3, does that mean you'd have the exact same amount of fun? You obviously don't word it like. You don't stop and say ``shit I'm a loyal fan, i'll play some more cs''

Loyatly is displayed when you continually return to playing the game, when you devote a lot of time to it. When you pass over playing other games to play CS, or even having CS as the monopolistic game on your computer.

I play a lot of bf1942, Mafia, gta3 but I still come back to CS even with new game releases. Why? Because I enjoy playing it. I play VS bots, or freinds. I play on public servers and private servers. I play CS because it's great game, not especially because I enjoy the people I play against and with.

[Exo]

A lot of you aren't really getting the point. People like pablo_fag's arguments are based entirely on exaggeration. That batting average comment, and you calling me under 13, make you a hypocrite.



People like mouth, on the other hand, at least have something constructive to add. I admit "loyalty" isn't as strong a concept as, say, "honesty." A lot of people have vastly different opinions on it (oh hey I said that in the article), and I stated mine already.

[mouth]

tokkok wrote..

i sincerely doubt if its a great article, i find it's totally lame, touching on the romantic topic of "loyalty" to a game.

It's a fine topic that brought forth an issue that can be talked about with some depth. How is that lame?

thegentlesoftness wrote..

easy to learn. difficult to master.

Like Othello!

pablo_m123 wrote..

finally someone knows what I'm talking about. when you play cs you don't sacrifice your social life, IT IS TAKEN FROM YOU. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Even bigger difference when you consider the fact that no one holds a gun to your head to play the game. "Taken from you" my ass.

i was referring to internet arguments, which most of the time come down to doing something pointlessly.

Cop-outs like that are how we came to have jackasses who contribute nothing but "arguing on the internet.." .jpgs. An argument's an argument.

And what does "talking out of my ass" mean exactly? they don't have that on dictionary.com

It's what we call an "idiom", billy. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

i dont think I'm talking out of my ass, I'm just having an argument with people who won't understand, which is pointless.

You're writing this while listening to The Cure, aren't you?

I have looked at this situation from every angle, especially from the ones submitted by other people, and every time I come back to where I am now. If I have not been convinced that I am wrong, and no one will truly listen to what I am saying, then I do think that is pointless argument.

Another cop-out. Few statements made here have been so laughable. Congratulations on stating the cliche teenager anthem. Round it out nicely by proudly proclaiming "If it's going to be that kind of party, then i'm going to stick my dick in the mashed potatoes".

[pablo_m123]

"People who play CS a great deal, more than any other game they may have, are being loyal to counter-strike as a game."



how are they being loyal??



all you are saying is that playing one game a whole lot makes you loyal to it. I can't help but think that you are exchanging the word "loyal" for the word "addicted."



"I play a lot of bf1942, Mafia, gta3 but I still come back to CS even with new game releases. Why? Because I enjoy playing it."



that still doesn't make you loyal to it



"A lot of you aren't really getting the point. People like pablo_fag's arguments are based entirely on exaggeration. That batting average comment, and you calling me under 13, make you a hypocrite."



no I said if you were under 13 you shouldn't feel bad about the crappiness of the article. How are my arguments based entirely on exaggeration?



your problem is that you are addicted to counter-strike, and trying to say you're just being "loyal."



"Even bigger difference when you consider the fact that no one holds a gun to your head to play the game. "Taken from you" my ass."



every time you say something retarded like that you're just helping me.

If you were out of the 6th grade you would realize that no one holds a gun to your head to use drugs, or to drink beer, or do anything else addictive.



"An argument's an argument."



not when it becomes completely off topic, idiot



"You're writing this while listening to The Cure, aren't you?"



what the hell is that?



"Another cop-out. Few statements made here have been so laughable. Congratulations on stating the cliche teenager anthem. Round it out nicely by proudly proclaiming "If it's going to be that kind of party, then i'm going to stick my dick in the mashed potatoes"."



actually I was insulting you all by saying you are too stupid to try to resolve the argument, but whatever



exo how old are you, seriously? is english your first language?

[Wwv]

Talking about it being ridiculous being loyal to a game, isn't it silly to be loyal to a country or sovereign too?

Loyalty is a very human thing and is therefore dripping with silliness, be it coca-cola or a country or anything else.

[Exo]

pablo_m123 wrote..

no I said if you were under 13 you shouldn't feel bad about the crappiness of the article. How are my arguments based entirely on exaggeration?

Let's take a look at your beginning statements..

im sorry, but you can't upload a clan or a league.

www.dictionary.com

Wow, I didn't realize it was that hard to understand.



With new clans, leagues, fansites and articles (like this one!) being uploaded on a daily basis.



Is it clear enough for you now? That went through 2 editors and thousands of other readers, and you're the only one who didn't understand. And you call me a bad writer?

"Games like Football and Baseball have been around for centuries"



yeah, few people know that Ben Franklin had a mean .400 batting average when he was at his peak, and the Pilgrims had guys that could make 70 yard field goals.

narby already proved my point on this one. Read a fucking history book, illiterate.

Thesis (I'm guessing) : "Definitions of loyalty have changed over the years, and analyzing loyalty itself isn't quite as simple as you would think."



Now this is something I have seen many times. It's called "dumb person tries to sound like smart person," and it is a chronic illness. Notice the big words, such as "definitions," and "analyzing." I recommend heavy doses of ritalin, and for him to stay away from the computer, where people might realize what a dumb*ss he is.

"Definitions," and "analyzing" are big words? Wow, where have I been?

"To me, loyalty is going out of your way to enjoy a game, when you could be doing something more important -- like tending to loved ones or watering the lawn."



I love dictionaries, because you can't argue with them



loy·al Pronunciation Key (loil)

adj.

Steadfast in allegiance to one's homeland, government, or sovereign.

Faithful to a person, ideal, custom, cause, or duty.

Of, relating to, or marked by loyalty. See Synonyms at faithful.



Well, cs isn't a homeland, government, sovereign, person, ideal, custom, cause, or duty, so I guess that means YOUR WHOLE ESSAY MAKES NO F***ING SENSE!!!

Loyalty can be used in many different contexts, you clearly aren't seeing the right one. Props to narby on proving me right on this one, as well.

exo how old are you, seriously? is english your first language?

You know, if anybody's a child here, it's you. Attacking somebody's age is usually used only when you want to feel better about yourself. I'm pretty sure I'm better with English than you are, so go jump off a cliff.

[SuBtle FOnduE]

mouth wrote..

"If it's going to be that kind of party, then i'm going to stick my dick in the mashed potatoes".

yay for beastie boys..

although im sad i didnt get the cure referance

[moda]

pablo_m123 wrote..

"Games like Football and Baseball have been around for centuries"



yeah, few people know that Ben Franklin had a mean .400 batting average when he was at his peak, and the Pilgrims had guys that could make 70 yard field goals.

now you're just plain wrong for trying to disprove that statement.

pablo_m123 wrote..

Thesis (I'm guessing) : "Definitions of loyalty have changed over the years, and analyzing loyalty itself isn't quite as simple as you would think."



Now this is something I have seen many times. It's called "dumb person tries to sound like smart person," and it is a chronic illness. Notice the big words, such as "definitions," and "analyzing." I recommend heavy doses of ritalin, and for him to stay away from the computer, where people might realize what a dumb*ss he is.

calling somebody a dumbass is not the same as saying he's wrong for saying the definition of loyalty has changed over the years. the response you made to his statement was completely irrelevant.

pablo_m123 wrote..

"To me, loyalty is going out of your way to enjoy a game, when you could be doing something more important -- like tending to loved ones or watering the lawn."



I love dictionaries, because you can't argue with them



loy·al Pronunciation Key (loil)

adj.

Steadfast in allegiance to one's homeland, government, or sovereign.

Faithful to a person, ideal, custom, cause, or duty.

Of, relating to, or marked by loyalty. See Synonyms at faithful.



Well, cs isn't a homeland, government, sovereign, person, ideal, custom, cause, or duty, so I guess that means YOUR WHOLE ESSAY MAKES NO F***ING SENSE!!!

you do realize there is more than 1 version of the dictionary, don't you? your definition is not the only correct one.

pablo_m123 wrote..

that brought a tear to my eye EDIT: (it didn't really bring a tear, im not that pathetic)

yes you are.

pablo_m123 wrote..

so basically what you are saying is that the true purpose of gaming is not to provide a source of entertainment for short periods of time, but instead to take over a part of your life (and mind, if he really is as he sounds)? I'm sure your kids (if you ever manage to get some) will be proud of how hard you worked to beat Diablo 2 on hard without any help.

of course something you're loyal to will take over a part of your life, silly. he never said how large of a part, though. now, for example, im certain you have a favorite brand of shoes. now when its time for you to get a new pair, the first place you turn to is the the brands catalog/website/store, etc...now that's called being loyal to a brand, which is not one of the following: one's homeland, government, sovereign, a person, ideal, custom, cause, or duty. you just disproved your own statement you made earlier. I CAN USE THE DICTIONARY TOO LOOK WHAT I FOUND -- http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=hypocrite

[narby]

Theres a difference between being loyal and being addicted. An addiction implies you cannot stop doing something even if you wanted to.



Loyalty is supporting something by choice. You can show devotion to a computer game just by playing it a lot.

"I play a lot of bf1942, Mafia, gta3 but I still come back to CS even with new game releases. Why? Because I enjoy playing it."



that still doesn't make you loyal to it

Actually it does.