Poll Update!

[Amnesiac]

Everyone except lockhart seems to be confused about what I meant, so i'll clarify:



If Gun A is very accurate then the winner of a fire fight between two people holding gun a will be decided by the amount of skill they have shooting that gun. Gun B is more powerful than Gun A however it is less accurate. In a firefight between Gun A and B the winner will be decided with the skills of their respective guns. That makes sense, right? That's how CS once was. Gun A was the MP5 and Gun B was either the Colt or the AK.



Someone who plays in CAL-I is better than someone in CAL-IM, however, in 1.6 a CAL-IM player vs. a CAL-I player will not necessarily result in a win for the CAL-I player. The CAL-I player may be faster and more proficient with the guns, but that does not outweigh these aspects of 1.6: The head hitbox is bigger than 1.3, there are no guns available with any even recognizable advantages for being on offense (in 1.3 it made sense to use the MP5 because you could run while shooting, giving you a reason to play offensively,) and of course, because camping is the best option for the only 3 guns in the game, the ak, the colt and the awp. Therefore, if one CAL-IM player was to take advantage of all of these aspects of 1.6 they would have a good shot at taking down someone who can shoot better and act quicker than they can. The reason for this is: the guns aren't accurate, there mp5 got nerfed for no good reason and there is no diversity amongst useful weapons (all the good guns are rifles, so, there is no gun based on agility.)

David Johnston wrote..

The problem is, with the huge audience that CS has, some people want it to be ultra-realistic, some want it to be unrealistic, and when you hit a compromise, both sides rebel because it's not what they wanted. The purpose of the game is for entertainment - it's not a historical document nor is it a comedy. It's a sport.



If CS had to cater for the exact desire of every player, we'd all be playing on our own.

Agreed, however, as a sport, the game has to conform to standards and be pleasurable to spectators. What I mean by the former is that:

When a soccer player kicks a ball they can expect certian things, but they can not in CS as the game is extremely unpredictable in it self not to mention the fact that the netcode is terrible. I also think that something should be done about the fact that the game doesn't run as well as it once did, as the game running smoothly is key in a professional atmosphere.

[entRo]

Thortok2000 wrote..

First of all, 'pro mode', no matter what the changes are, is stupid. Reasons have been given, but it basically boils down to 'pro mode' won't be pro mode, because everyone will play it anyway.



So to suggest the changes for 'pro mode' would be to suggest the changes for all of CS, pubs, low-level scrims, and, of course, the pros.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You think we're asking VALVe of all people to make a pro-mode? I'd have a better chance of getting pro-mode by hiring 10 kindergarteners, and relying on chance that they'd program the game correctly. If a pro-mode were to come about, what the hell makes you think everyone would play it? Why would they? It'd be for league purposes and it'd be less geared towards the public players, so why would they play it? Most people pubbers probably wouldn't hear about it for awhile, we'd have the occasional pubber that would read about it on here and download it, then realize its useless for him and just go back to 1.6.

A) Pro mode is pointless. The pros play the same game as we do.

Think about what you just said for 10 seconds and tell me you came up with that on your own. I don't believe it.



Yeah, of course the pro's play the same game the pubbers do, and thats why we want pro mode so we can have a game better suited for league play.

B) Infinite jumping is ludicrous. Increase the amount of jumping if and only if you really feel you need to, but punish the people who jump 'too much'. While it may or may not increase the 'skill level' of the game to have more jumping, it's still ludicrous.

Why punish the people who jump too much? No one complained about it in 1.3. I don't want bunnyhopping back, I just want the delay after jumps removed or significantly nerfed. I don't see why you should be punished for jumping, in 1.3 you could be accurate with pistols while jumping but that was pretty much it.

And, on another note, I doubt I'd ever get a single kill on a 3D player or a SK player. Not a single one. Ever. Even with the 'randomness'. Not unless I was camping and they didn't know I was there, or something, which I doubt would even happen.

That's sad.

[ioCS,undertaker]

There are some metamod, amxmod plugins outta there that provide 1.3 style jumping, less recoil etc. So why doesnt any single organization on the entire earth use them, if a so-called "pro-mode" is so necessary?



No sir, i did not miss those jumping random mp5, ak47 headshots. Jumping pistol shots were not that skillfull either. Point the crosshair on his stomach, then jump and get a headshot. Wow! great aiming!



IMO, aiming skill has never been the first fact in CS and it will never be. If you're so interested in skill, try playing some DMs instead.

[Zeff]

The biggest problem in CS that's causing all these arguments/differences in opinion is the fact that playing in a pub and playing competitively are totally different things. I believe that there should be a 'pro-mode' for competitive play, because the randomness really hurts it. But for pub play, i can see why they would add a bit of randomness to try and level the playing field. Recently, it seems that Valve has been changing CS to improve pub play, and i think something needs to be done to help competitive CS. There are obvious differences between playing in a pub and playing in a match, so it makes sense that they shouldn't follow the same rules.

[Thortok2000]

entRo wrote..

You have no idea what you're talking about. You think we're asking VALVe of all people to make a pro-mode? I'd have a better chance of getting pro-mode by hiring 10 kindergarteners, and relying on chance that they'd program the game correctly. If a pro-mode were to come about, what the hell makes you think everyone would play it? Why would they? It'd be for league purposes and it'd be less geared towards the public players, so why would they play it? Most people pubbers probably wouldn't hear about it for awhile, we'd have the occasional pubber that would read about it on here and download it, then realize its useless for him and just go back to 1.6.

First of all, read my post. I never once said 'Valve' anything.



Secondly, everyone would play it because they would consider themselves 'pro'. They'd play it to be playing the same game as the pros. They'd play it to practice, in the hope that they may one day be pro. If the leagues don't play the same game as the pubs, then most of the pubs will play the same game as the pros.

Think about what you just said for 10 seconds and tell me you came up with that on your own. I don't believe it.

Think about what I said and tell me that you even understand it. The pros play the same game as us. The same game, only they're better at it.



Imagine basketball where the goal is only 1 inch in diameter more than the basketball, because the pros are better and make the goals better. Or where they don't have to dribble, because dribbling makes the game 'slow-paced'. And all this based on the opinions of whiny teenagers who aren't even the pros themselves.



Would they even be playing basketball then? No.



If you have a 'pro mode'...then the pros are simply playing CS: The Other Version. They're no longer playing CS. Which is the Number One reason why Leagues simply won't do this, no matter how much you whine about it. I don't even have to defend this arguement against you, the leagues know it's stupid and it'll never happen.

Yeah, of course the pro's play the same game the pubbers do, and thats why we want pro mode so we can have a game better suited for league play.

Then play a game better suited for league play and forget Counter-Strike. Don't mod Counter-Strike to be whatever you want...then you're not actually playing Counter-Strike anymore, you're playing some mod that you made up and called 'pro version' so that people would think it's cool instead of nonconformist.

Why punish the people who jump too much? No one complained about it in 1.3. I don't want bunnyhopping back, I just want the delay after jumps removed or significantly nerfed. I don't see why you should be punished for jumping, in 1.3 you could be accurate with pistols while jumping but that was pretty much it.

Plenty of people complained about it in 1.3. And I've said before that you can nerf the 'stutter jump', just punish people who jump 'too much'. If 'too much' happens to be 7 times instead of 3, then whatever...the 'too much' value can be decided upon later. But jumping 'too much' is ridiculous, and jumping infinitely is pointless.



I'd also like to see your accuracy suffer for a moment when you hit ground again.

That's sad.

Meh, I could maybe get a kill or two. But it'd be something like a 40:2 ratio on their part.



The point is that the better players are better, even with the 'randomness', even with the stutter jump. They simply are better.



What I want fixed most is the interp and the hitboxes and the bugs, especially that one where they look like they're facing 90 degrees right and they're actually looking straight at you.

[Pharlap]

the pistols were nerfed in cs 1.4 for a good reason. because they are a sidearm, and are used as a last resort weapon. when your primary is out, whip out the pistol and hope it can save you. many people were getting tired of getting "sniped" by a pistol, hence they got nerfed and now do what they are supposed to do.

a pistol shouldnt be used as a primary weapon, or be as near effctive as a primary weapon.

[sniky44]

I say we kick the carrots and go for the chips and soda :P



As for the real arguement, THERE IS SKILL IN CS!!!!! think about it, sure there are lucky headshots as we see in frag or die... some of them are gay, but others are really good. now if you think about it who cares about one kill, you could get lucky and kill Fatal1ty, and you could also get lucky and kill, heaton. but on a one on one, heaton would win majorly right? but, say in the two worlds map in UT if you get in the sniper spot there isn't anything Fatl1ty can do about it. well until he kills you. were as in CS the random shot factor would help Fatal1ty. so in CS you can go on a pro server and at least get a few kills :P

appended @ [time="1081622703"]

O, and to rizzuh is there an irc place for CS-Nation? I can't find one...

[Amnesiac]

Edited by [user="4189"] @ [time="1081634586"]

ioCS,undertaker wrote..

There are some metamod, amxmod plugins outta there that provide 1.3 style jumping, less recoil etc. So why doesnt any single organization on the entire earth use them, if a so-called "pro-mode" is so necessary?

Because CAL, and subsequently the CPL, tend to stick as close as they possibly can to the official version of CS. They were smart enough to ban the shield, but once Valve fixes it, you can be sure it'll be a part of CAL.

No sir, i did not miss those jumping random mp5, ak47 headshots. Jumping pistol shots were not that skillfull either. Point the crosshair on his stomach, then jump and get a headshot. Wow! great aiming!

After reading what you've just written, it's become clear that one of two things is true. 1. You have not been playing this game since at LEAST 1.0 or 2. you do not know what the word random means.



In version 1.0, and all of the versions preceding it, you were extremely accurate while jumping, strafing or just about any movement action with the MP5. Even after 1.0 there was only an impact on the jumping and it wasn't that detrimental. The reason I bring this up: The less recoil there is, the less random it is. The pistols were more accurate, the headboxes were smaller and the AK was a lot harder to use because of that fact.



It's clear you're not the target market for a "pro mode" as you've never made it very far in the CAL. CAL-M would be the watermark, and you are under it.

IMO, aiming skill has never been the first fact in CS and it will never be. If you're so interested in skill, try playing some DMs instead.

Not only does your opinion not count, but you're wrong. Aiming skill was paramount up until 1.3. It was after that point that the player's skill, and the ability for the player to exercise that skill, was overtaken by position, amount of backup and the weapon you were holding.

Thortok2000 wrote..

Everyone would play it because they would consider themselves 'pro'. They'd play it to be playing the same game as the pros. They'd play it to practice, in the hope that they may one day be pro. If the leagues don't play the same game as the pubs, then most of the pubs will play the same game as the pros.

One of the key points is that a pro-mode is a great deal less drastic than game-wide changes. It's not as though valve gave options to turn off their changes made in 1.4 and that made many people angry. We wouldn't want to be hypocritical. There would be people who would want to play 1.6 style over 1.3, as there are people who genuinely appreciate the 1.6 gameplay. What you are suggesting is that the leagues decide what people play and that is the only reason they play it. I tend to agree, but only because the option isn't there.

Think about what I said and tell me that you even understand it. The pros play the same game as us. The same game, only they're better at it.

However, a CAL-M player can't go into a random pub and just be ridiculously good. Reason being, the game has far too many random elements and his individual skill has been hampered by the fact that he can't quick switch, and that he can't jump around. The more options you give the players the more skilled they can be. The fact that people aren't able to jump or quick switch leans the advantage towards people who weren't proficient with those abilities in the first place.

Imagine basketball where the goal is only 1 inch in diameter more than the basketball, because the pros are better and make the goals better. Or where they don't have to dribble, because dribbling makes the game 'slow-paced'. And all this based on the opinions of whiny teenagers who aren't even the pros themselves.



Would they even be playing basketball then? No.

No, wrong. You have no comprehension of the issue at hand. Dribbling is an example of something like jumping and quick switching. It's a skill, if they took dribbling out of the game, suddenly I would be a lot better at basketball and would be able to take on people who are significantly better at the game then me. In addition, I am suggesting that the people who have the input on the prospective pro mode be the pros. That way, people, such as yourself, don't have input, since you have no reference or understanding of what the pro community looked like then and, more than likely, now.

If you have a 'pro mode'...then the pros are simply playing CS: The Other Version. They're no longer playing CS. Which is the Number One reason why Leagues simply won't do this, no matter how much you whine about it. I don't even have to defend this arguement against you, the leagues know it's stupid and it'll never happen.

If that is true explain why the precedent in pro FPS, quake 3 arena, uses a mod based on professional play and why CAL and QuakeCon have adopted it? The reason that the CS community hasn't adopted this, and why the q3a community has, is because at least 90% of the CS community aren't competitively active (at least cal-im, or back in the day M) and such don't have an understanding of the game that the pros do, as well do not have any idea of what the game once was.

Then play a game better suited for league play and forget Counter-Strike. Don't mod Counter-Strike to be whatever you want...then you're not actually playing Counter-Strike anymore, you're playing some mod that you made up and called 'pro version' so that people would think it's cool instead of nonconformist.

The CS community is what is today because of what CS once was. I thoroughly enjoyed the league play of what CS was. In the past it was enjoyable to try to get good at the game, but that seems like a thing of the past. "Don't mod Counter-Strike to be whatever you want...then you're not actually playing Counter-Strike anymore" If by the same token you'd apply that to version 1.6, then you simply can not call 1.6 counter-strike. It's so inherently different than 1.3 and lower. This is how I feel, 1.6 is not the counter-strike that spawned the largest FPS community in the world.

Plenty of people complained about it in 1.3. And I've said before that you can nerf the 'stutter jump', just punish people who jump 'too much'. If 'too much' happens to be 7 times instead of 3, then whatever...the 'too much' value can be decided upon later. But jumping 'too much' is ridiculous, and jumping infinitely is pointless.

You have no reasoning, you just, personally, find it ridiculous. The punishment is that you aren't as accurate in the air. With guns like the AK it makes sense to not be accurate in the air, however with a pistol, I think it's fine.

I'd also like to see your accuracy suffer for a moment when you hit ground again.

Would that make the game more challenging?

Meh, I could maybe get a kill or two. But it'd be something like a 40:2 ratio on their part.

But only if they were screwed over by one of the things that screw people over in 1.6. If he had an mp5 and you had armor, a colt, and any skill at all, you could take anyone. Mainly because the mp5 is useless, not because you're good. He wouldn't be able to dodge even though he had the lighter gun, cs 1.6 doesn't allow people to do that.

The point is that the better players are better, even with the 'randomness', even with the stutter jump. They simply are better.

Whether they are better or not is irrelevant. What's important is that 1.6 chips away as a lot of the skills that are important to an FPS and to players of old. If you turn basketball into a free throw contest, and the difference in skill between me and michael jordan closes in a huge amount. This is what has happened to CS.

Pharlap wrote..

the pistols were nerfed in cs 1.4 for a good reason. because they are a sidearm, and are used as a last resort weapon. when your primary is out, whip out the pistol and hope it can save you. many people were getting tired of getting "sniped" by a pistol, hence they got nerfed and now do what they are supposed to do.

a pistol shouldnt be used as a primary weapon, or be as near effctive as a primary weapon.

I actually agree, however that's not all that was changed. Should the pistols be less accurate, less powerful? Maybe. However, in 1.4 they took away the advantage of all light weaponry. In the past, you could be more agile with a pistol or an mp5 when compared to someone holding an AK. In the current version, you cannot. The mp5 is a waste of time now, in fact, unless you're facing someone with no armor, you'd be better off holding a deagle than an mp5.

[ioCS,undertaker]

Because CAL, and subsequently the CPL, tend to stick as close as they possibly can to the official version of CS. They were smart enough to ban the shield, but once Valve fixes it, you can be sure it'll be a part of CAL.

As lots of ppl mentioned before, "Pro-mode" CS will not be CS anymore. It will be another CS likely mod of HL, but will never be called CS. So, make a modification of HL that meets your "pro" needs and lets see which leagues would include it, which leagues would prefer it instead of original CS.

After reading what you've just written, it's become clear that one of two things is true. 1. You have not been playing this game since at LEAST 1.0 or 2. you do not know what the word random means.

Well actually I'm playin public CS since beta 5.2 and in competitive play since 1.3. (at the same time running the biggest online gaming cs content provider web site in my country for more than 2 years) But if it's not be enough for you, i dunno wut to do :)

In version 1.0, and all of the versions preceding it, you were extremely accurate while jumping, strafing or just about any movement action with the MP5. Even after 1.0 there was only an impact on the jumping and it wasn't that detrimental. The reason I bring this up: The less recoil there is, the less random it is. The pistols were more accurate, the headboxes were smaller and the AK was a lot harder to use because of that fact.

In a game like CS where maps does not contain larger open areas, jump pads; and having lots of small rooms, halls, small fighting areas instead; also, you have no option to teleport, rocket jump etc.; increasing or decresing recoil only effects the importance of timing. And btw, you know, still the first shot is accurate for all of the wepons. Is it more skillfull to make your best shot in the first chance or in your spraying progress?



Anyways, as far as i see, ppl owning in previous versions still own @ 1.4, 1.5, 1.6 .

It's clear you're not the target market for a "pro mode" as you've never made it very far in the CAL. CAL-M would be the watermark, and you are under it.

Well, as I'm not living in USA, I cannot join CAL I'm so sorry :) But I'm in competitive play for more than 2 years. Also made lots of scrimmage in USA with my whole team having 200 pings. We were able to beat teams that say they compete in cal-im. Actually i had not any chance to play against cal-m or cal-i teams in equal conditions. But a teammate of mine who is taking education in USA got lots of CAL-m and CAL-i experience in different clans. So i dunno wut to say; if it would make you happy, you are better than me, i'm just useless garbage compared with you. :)

Not only does your opinion not count, but you're wrong. Aiming skill was paramount up until 1.3. It was after that point that the player's skill, and the ability for the player to exercise that skill, was overtaken by position, amount of backup and the weapon you were holding.

Have you ever played quake series or similiar DM games? IN CS, you have limited area to aim, limited ability to move. You cannot jump up to 20-30 meters, can't fly in the air etc. So how can aiming be that important? Even in quake, controlling map resources such as health, armor, wepons is the most important factor. You can have superb aim with rail but cannot get a single kill without taking advantage of your experience. In CS, experience is the most important factor. Being in the right place in the right time, it is. Second, here comes timing. Passing the corner, facing your enemy at the right time. Then comes aiming. Compare with quake. Which is harder to use, railgun or ak47/awp/m4a1?

[entRo]

ioCS,undertaker wrote..

As lots of ppl mentioned before, "Pro-mode" CS will not be CS anymore. It will be another CS likely mod of HL, but will never be called CS. So, make a modification of HL that meets your "pro" needs and lets see which leagues would include it, which leagues would prefer it instead of original CS.

CAL used to run Quake3 and Quake3-OSP at the same time, so why couldnt CS: Pro-mod and CS co-exist in CAL and other leagues? The switch over would take a little time, but I'm sure 90% of CAL-m and higher players would rather play the Pro-mod (I'm excluding Team D1E from this count cause we all know how intelligent they are). Even your precious 3D would probably rather play the pro-mod if tournaments offered money for it. If players make the change, CPL will eventually make the change. What good reason would the CPL have to NOT make the switch? Pro-mod would be enjoyed more by the players, and spectators. Sponsors don't know and probably don't care, and VALVe hasn't done much to help the CPL.

Well actually I'm playin public CS since beta 5.2 and in competitive play since 1.3. (at the same time running the biggest online gaming cs content provider web site in my country for more than 2 years) But if it's not be enough for you, i dunno wut to do :)

He wasn't talking to you.

In a game like CS where maps does not contain larger open areas, jump pads; and having lots of small rooms, halls, small fighting areas instead; also, you have no option to teleport, rocket jump etc.; increasing or decresing recoil only effects the importance of timing. And btw, you know, still the first shot is accurate for all of the wepons. Is it more skillfull to make your best shot in the first chance or in your spraying progress?

Thanks for comparing CS to Q3. Increasing or decreasing the recoil does not only affect timing, it takes away from the chance that a second bullet may go astray when it is an easy shot, or the chance that a stray bullet not aimed at you may hit you regardless.

Anyways, as far as i see, ppl owning in previous versions still own @ 1.4, 1.5, 1.6 .

No one got worse from the change, it's just so much easier for people that aren't good to win by methods other than mostly skill.

We were able to beat teams that say they compete in cal-im. Actually i had not any chance to play against cal-m or cal-i teams in equal conditions. But a teammate of mine who is taking education in USA got lots of CAL-m and CAL-i experience in different clans.

CAL-im is crap for the most part. Also many CAL-o teams will say they're CAL-im because "We're CAL-im" looks alot better than "We're CAL-o". And who's your teammate?

IN CS, you have limited area to aim, limited ability to move. You cannot jump up to 20-30 meters, can't fly in the air etc. So how can aiming be that important?

Aiming is important because you have limited ability to move, you can't jump 20-30 meters, can't fly in the air etc. When two people would meet up in CS in 1.3 and prior, almost always it came down to who had the best aim if both players had the same gun and same health. We can't move like we do in Q3 or UT, and while aiming is the most important thing in those games it's also the most important in CS because of the hitbox factor which Q3/UT doesn't have. In hitscan games, it's whoever can aim AT their enemy the best. In CS it's whoever can aim AT and where they aim ON their enemy.

Second, here comes timing. Passing the corner, facing your enemy at the right time. Then comes aiming. Compare with quake. Which is harder to use, railgun or ak47/awp/m4a1?

Yea, right now camping is the easiest way to kill an enemy, and most of the time camping wins out over moving. CS is still a tactical game and camping IS necessary but in 1.3 it wasn't as necessary as it is now. No one is asking for CS to be a completely aim oriented game, that's not what CS is. We'd just like it to be MORE aim oriented, less random prone, and faster so people who are better come out on top almost all the time, like it used to be.

[Amnesiac]

entRo wrote..

lots of good stuff

You hit the nail on the head, pal ^_^.



The point is, cs 1.3 was drastically different than 1.6 and the main differences are impacts on things that were once considerable skills. The only reason it seems you like the lack of jumping is because it's different from quake. If you have the option of jumping with certain guns that adds a dynamic, not only with diversifying the weaponry but with the skills players can have. Jumping and shooting takes more skill than just shooting, simply because it's one more thing you have to deal with and because you are forced to shoot from a dynamic angle. In addition to that, let's take quick switching: The only conceivable reasons to take away quick switching are:

1. To slow down the fire fights.

2. To make it easier for those who can't deal with shooting two different guns in one battle.



Plain and simple, it takes more skill to do more things at once rather than less. 1.6 makes things easier for those that aren't good at the game. It doesn't make a newb a pro or vice versa, but it makes the skill gap that much smaller between o and im, im and m, etc.

[Thortok2000]

Edited by [user="152360"] @ [time="1081668333"]

Amnesiac wrote..

However, a CAL-M player can't go into a random pub and just be ridiculously good. Reason being, the game has far too many random elements and his individual skill has been hampered by the fact that he can't quick switch, and that he can't jump around. The more options you give the players the more skilled they can be. The fact that people aren't able to jump or quick switch leans the advantage towards people who weren't proficient with those abilities in the first place.

The reason a CAL-M player can't go into a pub and be ridiculously good is because he has no team. Again I say, competitive CS is a team sport, and emphasis on INDIVIDUAL skill will ruin that. At least, to a point. Everyone will be more concerned with the greatest player as opposed to the greatest team.

No, wrong. You have no comprehension of the issue at hand. Dribbling is an example of something like jumping and quick switching. It's a skill, if they took dribbling out of the game, suddenly I would be a lot better at basketball and would be able to take on people who are significantly better at the game then me. In addition, I am suggesting that the people who have the input on the prospective pro mode be the pros. That way, people, such as yourself, don't have input, since you have no reference or understanding of what the pro community looked like then and, more than likely, now.

The 'randomness' of recoil = dribbling. If they take it out, suddenly everyone would be a lot better at CS and would be able to take on people who are signifcantly better at the game than them. Spray and pray would be spray and kill. And how often do you see spray and pray?



All jumping matters aside, making the guns *easier* to aim with, is, by definition, EASIER. Why should 'pro mode' be easier?



I mean, think about it. Is it harder or easier to hit a moving target with or without the recoil? I'd think it would be harder to hit it with the recoil. You may get 'lucky', of course...but that also just means that you accidentally did it right.



I mean, after all, the pros deal with the 'randomness' and still are pros. Ask them how they do it. All I can say is that recoil and such adds to the skill of the game.



And as far as the randomness of it, I still say I'd rather interp/hitboxes be fixed first.

If that is true explain why the precedent in pro FPS, quake 3 arena, uses a mod based on professional play and why CAL and QuakeCon have adopted it? The reason that the CS community hasn't adopted this, and why the q3a community has, is because at least 90% of the CS community aren't competitively active (at least cal-im, or back in the day M) and such don't have an understanding of the game that the pros do, as well do not have any idea of what the game once was.

Don't know enough about this to comment, but I thought I heard somewhere that games like UT's 'pro' version was little, if any, gameplay changes. Like I said, I don't know enough to comment.

The CS community is what is today because of what CS once was. I thoroughly enjoyed the league play of what CS was. In the past it was enjoyable to try to get good at the game, but that seems like a thing of the past. "Don't mod Counter-Strike to be whatever you want...then you're not actually playing Counter-Strike anymore" If by the same token you'd apply that to version 1.6, then you simply can not call 1.6 counter-strike. It's so inherently different than 1.3 and lower. This is how I feel, 1.6 is not the counter-strike that spawned the largest FPS community in the world.

You really have three options. A) Suggest changes for the next version of CS. B) Deal with 1.6 (you can combine with A). C) Quit CS.



None of those involve a 'pro mode'. No matter what the changes are, I still feel that pro mode is pointless and will only do the community harm.

You have no reasoning, you just, personally, find it ridiculous. The punishment is that you aren't as accurate in the air. With guns like the AK it makes sense to not be accurate in the air, however with a pistol, I think it's fine.

I'm not talking about accuracy here. I'm talking about how it looks to see 5-10 terrorists jumping around like marbles that just fell onto a hard floor. Ridiculous. As far as accuracy goes, I think it should harm pistol's accuracy slightly and completely ruin anything else. Viewing through a scope should give 0% accuracy when jumping. These same accuracy things should take into effect more and more strongly with more and more jumping, and slowly cool off again once you stop jumping. Accuracy nerfs can replace the 'stutter', if you like, or allow it to be nerfed.



After all, jumping is to avoid fire, not to shoot back. It remains a standard CS equation that Better Accuracy or Better Mobility must remain in effect...too much of both, too close together, ruins CS and turns it into just another FPS, with too much individual skill, and makes objectives and teams rather moot, when all anyone does is just go around killing as best as they, individually, can.



I mean, if one person with an mp5 can take on an awper with much jumping around and junk, then why send 3? Individual skill and stuff would ruin this, leaving those 2 others free to run off and kill their own quota.

Would that make the game more challenging?

For the jumpers. If they choose to jump, it'll be harder for them to fire back. Poof, challenge. Jump all you like and be accuracy challenged while I have some sanity and stable my aim with good, solid, feet-on-the-ground contact. It's of course also make the jumpers harder to hit, but they're not firing back as well, so it's balanced.

But only if they were screwed over by one of the things that screw people over in 1.6. If he had an mp5 and you had armor, a colt, and any skill at all, you could take anyone. Mainly because the mp5 is useless, not because you're good. He wouldn't be able to dodge even though he had the lighter gun, cs 1.6 doesn't allow people to do that.

That's more of gun balancing issues and stuff, and doesn't really relate to pro version. Besides, generically, the more money you spend into your equipment, the more likely you should be to win. You earned/saved the money, that's the reward. Vesthelm/M4 should beat no armor/mp5, in a 1v1 battle, face-to-face battle, give or take nades. Tactics, positioning, and formations are what's required if you have the mp5's.

Whether they are better or not is irrelevant. What's important is that 1.6 chips away as a lot of the skills that are important to an FPS and to players of old. If you turn basketball into a free throw contest, and the difference in skill between me and michael jordan closes in a huge amount. This is what has happened to CS.

*shrugs* You're more likely to beat Michael Jordon in a freethrow contest as opposed to 1 on 1 basketball? Really? I figure you're guaranteed to lose either way.



A Cal-O nub team with 5 awps, armor, and nades, as CT on a DE map, will not beat 3D or SK who have 5 mp5's and no armor. They might not even need nades, but they'll probably get some if they have the money. For one, the nub team is never going to get enough money for the awps while preventing 3D from getting better than mp5's, and for another, 3D just rocks.



As far as I can see, whether you're 2% better or 1% better doesn't really matter. The same 'best' teams still consistently win against 'worse' teams. Who cares, really, how /much/ worse they are, if they continue to consistently lose?

[Amnesiac]

Thortok2000 wrote..

A lot of stupid stuff

You show no basic understanding of the following arguments.

[SpookyStillman]

the main reasons why people enjoy cs, is because of its large community that is still living. its not cause of the majority of the people love new changes to cs every year, its because hopefully cs will become a skill based game, not because of "hey, i just owned up a pub, lemme start a clan." Most people back in 1.0-1.3 loved cs because of sitting down at your compy and getting down the basics of becoming good, such as jumping and shooting, and using a variety of weapons. back then, the mp5 could take out a colt/ak, if you were good enough.



But now, what has happened to the game? the skilled players have to separate themselves from the masses because of the randomness of the game. its not that cs has become an elitist game, but if a cal-m player were to go to a random pub, he would get frustrated at the fact that he could get killed randomly, not because he was playing against people with more skill than he had. the game generally isnt fair to the people who have been playing for a long time, and have invested time into becoming really good. most of the things we used to do back then, seem really dumb now. quick switching is out of the question. you simply cant go 1v1 now, and know that you will win because of skill. i dont buy submachine guns anymore, cause if a deagle or even a usp could rox a mp5, there is not point in wasting money.



the game has evolved into a game of equality. if a im clan were to scrim a m clan back in 1.3, who would win? im sure like most of you, my money would be on the m players. but now, if a im clan were to scrim a m clan, who would win? its up in the air. showdowns in cs now are somewhat random. you cant put money on teams anymore. i know, thats exciting, but its like, 3d could get knocked out of a tourny at any round now, and how stupid is that? they are one of the best, they should end up placing one of the best. thats why we have leagues, thats why we have classes, to separate the pros, from the "good." i dont think that we should have a "pro-mode" or anything, generally we should all play the same game, but not all with the same people. ive been playing for well over 5 years now, on and off, and i have seen the game change a whole lot. but at this rate, the game is just going to keep hindering the people who have invested the time to become the "pros." comparing cs to ut and q3 just isn't smart. the games are different, with a different style of gameplay. if you wanted, you could play cs for the objectives, which was why the game was built, for the objectives, not because of deathmatch style gameplay. the game was made to be slow, not so slow as it is today.



if everyone could be a pro, then something is going good. but, that is not saying that you should help newbies pick up the game faster, and hurt the experienced. pro mode is just going to be another thing to download for most people, so that their competitive spirit can live on. granted, everyone should want to be the best, but that shouldnt come about by changing the game. the pros got good because they played alot, and they played not only to become the best, but to let everyone know that they genuinely are they best. despite all the changes, thats why we have cal, to separate the newbs, from the pros, and it should stay that way.

[F13ND]

Seriously thortok you have no grasp of cs at all...



This doesnt take away any emphasis away from team play just because you make it so the person with better aim/ more skill/ more experience kills the person with less of the 3.



Thortok wrote

"The reason a CAL-M player can't go into a pub and be ridiculously good is because he has no team. Again I say, competitive CS is a team sport, and emphasis on INDIVIDUAL skill will ruin that. At least, to a point. Everyone will be more concerned with the greatest player as opposed to the greatest team."



The thing that you fail to understand is that that player is cal m because he is good. He is not good because of his team. His teams is good because of him and the other skilled players on the team. Like i have said before, you have never been in any leagues throtok, you barely have experience in scrims... theres no way you can know what you are talking about.



Thortok2000 wrote

"I'm not talking about accuracy here. I'm talking about how it looks to see 5-10 terrorists jumping around like marbles that just fell onto a hard floor. Ridiculous."



WHO CARES HOW IT LOOKS?! cs is not real. Its a game. Made for fun. The end....



Thortok2000 wrote

"You're more likely to beat Michael Jordon in a freethrow contest as opposed to 1 on 1 basketball? Really? I figure you're guaranteed to lose either way."



You obviously totally missed the point... You are more LIKELY to win because there is less skill involved in shooting a free throw than playing actual basketball. Basketball itself is made up of things like "jumping" "catching" "dribbling" "shooting" and others. By only having to shoot the ball and make it to win, you have more of a chance and less room for errors which would cause you to lose.



Thortok2000 wrote

"A Cal-O nub team with 5 awps, armor, and nades, as CT on a DE map, will not beat 3D or SK who have 5 mp5's and no armor. They might not even need nades, but they'll probably get some if they have the money. For one, the nub team is never going to get enough money for the awps while preventing 3D from getting better than mp5's, and for another, 3D just rocks."



The point isnt whether the team would lose or not... its how many of the better team (in this case 3d or Sk) would die.... another thing you neglect to understand. And maybe if you had read one of my other posts in the other thread, you would have seen that this can and did happen with me and ur prime example, 3D. And that should not happen.



I totally agree with stilman. This game has been made into more of a game of equality. It shouldnt be that way. People who have worked on their aim and skill for 2-4 yrs shouldnt be as worried about a kid who has played for a month because they have more experience, better aim, etc.