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The PKM has a 1.8 second draw time, the AK-101 has a 0.7-sec draw and most other assault rifle has 1.2. It already has a "settling" time, it's called not being able to fire AT ALL.
You should not be able to dive to prone in CQC and acheive immediate pin point accuracy. It's no less lame than dolphin diving imo.
You should not be able to dive to prone in CQC and acheive immediate pin point accuracy. It's no less lame than dolphin diving imo.
You've clearly never tried that or you'd know it doesn't work. If you're running around and dive prone, you've still got a bunch of inaccuracy built up, you won't hit a damn thing unless it's short-range, in which case it's no more "broken" than any of the assault rifles. Being forced to prone is a weakness of the class already, now they should be forced to prone AND wait to fire? Just what I needed, a kit with a 1-second handicap in every fight.
EDIT -- And just so I can clarify, all of these arguments against prone firing are ridiculous. The only reason they've even being brought up is because support basically needs to fire prone, ANY other kit can fire prone if they want to, so any statement about nerfing prone firing is just directed towards nerfing support in general. News flash: The only kit that has to WAIT to fire is sniper, and they've got the ability to stay far, far away from the actual confrontation.
I'm still not convinced that'll solve anything, nor that that's a problem worth solving. Do you complain about getting blasted by the jackhammer or DAO close range? Should they have some sort of goofy delay before they're allowed to fire?
Are you serious? LMGs and shotguns are totally different guns, and vastly different in weight and awkwardness.
Point is, you can keep your accuracy but I think you oughta be penalized mobility-wise. Which is, after all, the concept behind the kit.
Originally posted by PHPT
You've clearly never tried that or you'd know it doesn't work. If you're running around and dive prone, you've still got a bunch of inaccuracy built up, you won't hit a damn thing unless it's short-range, in which case it's no more "broken" than any of the assault rifles. Being forced to prone is a weakness of the class already, now they should be forced to prone AND wait to fire? Just what I needed, a kit with a 1-second handicap in every fight.
Not true. Watch the crosshairs. They start really wide while you're running, and then SNAP in tight the split second you go prone.
And yes, you should have to wait. Support is supposed to set up cover fire and clamp off chokepoints - not run around attacking everything. We call that "Assault".
Are you serious? LMGs and shotguns are totally different guns, and vastly different in weight and awkwardness.
I'm talking in terms of effectiveness, not real-world statistics or some garbage. I don't care if the PKM weighs 3 grams or needs a pickup truck to move. The point is they are guns optimized for close-quarters, like shotguns. This is IN-GAME, I don't care about their real-world application, BF2 is not real life nor is it a simulator.
Point is, you can keep your accuracy but I think you oughta be penalized mobility-wise. Which is, after all, the concept behind the kit.
That mobility penalty is already there, which is the bad accuracy penalty for firing while not prone. Well, more like it WAS there, and they need to bring it back.
Not true. Watch the crosshairs. They start really wide while you're running, and then SNAP in tight the split second you go prone.
Yes, they do, but not "pinpoint accurate," it's about as accurate as an assault rifle, if not less. For "pinpoint accuracy" you have to wait for it to settle completely. Furthermore, you could ALWAYS DO THAT, before anyone was whining about this, your accuracy immediately after running/diving doesn't appear to be any better than it was in 1.12. The difference is now you can wait a second or two and all of a sudden you've got SVD-level accuracy.
EDIT -- Fixed typo.
And yes, you should have to wait. Support is supposed to set up cover fire and clamp off chokepoints - not run around attacking everything. We call that "Assault".
I've already gone over this. You can't "clamp off choke points," there is no such thing as cover fire. Cover fire is just bait for snipers and long-range shooters who giggle at the sight of a stationary target which has a 50% chance of getting shot in the head. Know what happens when you clamp off a choke point? At most one guy gets mowed, then whoever's left throws a hand grenade at you, and your "clamp" is gone.
I don't care what LMGs are used for in real life, this isn't real life, and DICE's description of the kit makes it sound like their primary role is ammo dispenser. And as for running around attacking everything, yeah, let's limit that role to assault, let's re-equip the AT and medic kits with pistols since having an assault rifle or DAO violates the rule that only assault should be running around aggressively killing other troops.
You've clearly never tried that or you'd know it doesn't work. If you're running around and dive prone, you've still got a bunch of inaccuracy built up, you won't hit a damn thing unless it's short-range, in which case it's no more "broken" than any of the assault rifles. Being forced to prone is a weakness of the class already, now they should be forced to prone AND wait to fire? Just what I needed, a kit with a 1-second handicap in every fight
Oh yes, that's right, prone diving doesn't work with the PKM that's why nobody does it.
The delay mechanism would mean if you want to prone then it's a good idea to do it *before* engaging not during which is more in-line with the role of the support player and the LMG.
Oh yes, that's right, prone diving doesn't work with the PKM that's why nobody does it.
The delay mechanism would mean if you want to prone then it's a good idea to do it *before* engaging not during which is more in-line with the role of the support player and the LMG.
Which would make support bait. As I said in the edit, no other kit has to WAIT to engage their target except sniper, and snipers are supposed to stay away from the action.
You don't "want to prone" as support, you NEED to prone, firing the PKM standing or even crouching is horrible. You're already practically stationary and almost any attack from the front will hit you in the head, there's a reason most kits prefer to fire their gun standing.
Which would make support bait. As I said in the edit, no other kit has to WAIT to engage their target except sniper, and snipers are supposed to stay away from the action.
You don't "want to prone" as support, you NEED to prone, firing the PKM standing or even crouching is horrible. You're already practically stationary and almost any attack from the front will hit you in the head, there's a reason most kits prefer to fire their gun standing.
And....? You're stating the obvious here. You think none of us have played support or used the PKM? My second highest kit K/D ratio (next to sniper) is using the PKM. It's very easy & effective to flop and fire in CQC. I just happen to think it's lame when so many people all play the same kit and they all do the same damn flop and fire routine. It's the noob tube all over again!
IMO if you are cayying a LMG and you want to switch from standing to prone you should pay a penalty time-wise whether it's 1s or whatever the case. That means if you get caught with your pants down while proning unable to return fire for a second, tough - you need to pick your spots better.
I'm talking in terms of effectiveness, not real-world statistics or some garbage. I don't care if the PKM weighs 3 grams or needs a pickup truck to move. The point is they are guns optimized for close-quarters, like shotguns. This is IN-GAME, I don't care about their real-world application, BF2 is not real life nor is it a simulator.
No one said it was. This is all you bud.
That mobility penalty is already there, which is the bad accuracy penalty for firing while not prone. Well, more like it WAS there, and they need to bring it back.
No they don't. The LMG's base accuracy should be equal to that of an assault rifle (in the PKM's case, the SVD). It's the recoil that needs to be ramped up. So, when firing from any position the LMG puts the rounds in the vicinity of your sights. Yet, the weapon should kick like a demon based on your stance.
Yes, they do, but not "pinpoint accurate," it's about as accurate as an assault rifle, if not less. For "pinpoint accuracy" you have to wait for it to settle completely. Furthermore, you could ALWAYS DO THAT, before anyone was whining about this, your accuracy immediately after running/diving doesn't appear to be any better than it was in 1.12. The difference is now you can wait a second or two and all of a sudden you've got SVD-level accuracy.
Which the PKM should have.
I've already gone over this. You can't "clamp off choke points," there is no such thing as cover fire. Cover fire is just bait for snipers and long-range shooters who giggle at the sight of a stationary target which has a 50% chance of getting shot in the head. Know what happens when you clamp off a choke point? At most one guy gets mowed, then whoever's left throws a hand grenade at you, and your "clamp" is gone.
Agreed.
I don't care what LMGs are used for in real life, this isn't real life, and DICE's description of the kit makes it sound like their primary role is ammo dispenser. And as for running around attacking everything, yeah, let's limit that role to assault, let's re-equip the AT and medic kits with pistols since having an assault rifle or DAO violates the rule that only assault should be running around aggressively killing other troops.
Acutally. The LMG's are used the way they are currently used in reality. You don't have to be prone, crouched, or supported to get decent accuracy with an LMG. Even standing you could hit a 6ft tall target at 150m. No problem. Granted, you have a much better chance of doing this while supported on somthing... yet, it's very possible.
I think the problem is two fold:
1. There is no Delay for firing after diving to your stomach (which there should be for all kits).
2. This game rides more on "random deviation" than "displayed recoil" for accuracy purposes. While sighting, some type of "visible recoil" needs to be there. It needs to apply to all weapons (more-so to LMGs), and it needs to ruin sight picture while aiming.
The Deviation system can still take priority while firing from the hip. Yet, while sighting it should be an accuracy system almost entirely based off of recoil and maintaining sight picture.
I'm talking in terms of effectiveness, not real-world statistics or some garbage. I don't care if the PKM weighs 3 grams or needs a pickup truck to move. The point is they are guns optimized for close-quarters, like shotguns. This is IN-GAME, I don't care about their real-world application, BF2 is not real life nor is it a simulator.
Who said anything about real world? I'm talking BF2 - and they're still completely different guns.
Originally posted by PHPT
Yes, they do, but not "pinpoint accurate," it's about as accurate as an assault rifle, if not less. For "pinpoint accuracy" you have to wait for it to settle completely. Furthermore, you could ALWAYS DO THAT, before anyone was whining about this, your accuracy immediately after running/diving doesn't appear to be any better than it was in 1.12. The difference is now you can wait a second or two and all of a sudden you've got SVD-level accuracy.
Immediately after prone they become accurate enough to kill someone efficiently. Before 1.2 the support guns were outgunned by every other (good) weapon in any situation at any range, all else being equal (such as skill).
Originally posted by PHPT
I've already gone over this. You can't "clamp off choke points," there is no such thing as cover fire. Cover fire is just bait for snipers and long-range shooters who giggle at the sight of a stationary target which has a 50% chance of getting shot in the head. Know what happens when you clamp off a choke point? At most one guy gets mowed, then whoever's left throws a hand grenade at you, and your "clamp" is gone.
Of course there's cover fire - you may also know it as "shooting bad guys so they don't shoot your teammates". I didn't say "suppressing fire", which is a myth in BF2.
You're really not a very good Support player if you don't know how to identify and hold chokepoints. I've made a career out of defending the Sharqi TV station stairwells, which is to say nothing of Karkand's hotel and hotbox, plus various other key infantry-only areas.
It sounds like you want to play Support like Assault. I recommend playing Assault and leaving Support to those of us who know how to apply it appropriately.
Originally posted by PHPT
I don't care what LMGs are used for in real life, this isn't real life, and DICE's description of the kit makes it sound like their primary role is ammo dispenser. And as for running around attacking everything, yeah, let's limit that role to assault, let's re-equip the AT and medic kits with pistols since having an assault rifle or DAO violates the rule that only assault should be running around aggressively killing other troops.
You're just rambling. Consider dropping your rant in favor of a more common sensical outlook that assigns a logical role to Support within the larger kit ecosystem.
1. There is no Delay for firing after diving to your stomach (which there should be for all kits).
2. This game rides more on "random deviation" than "displayed recoil" for accuracy purposes. While sighting, some type of "visible recoil" needs to be there. It needs to apply to all weapons (more-so to LMGs), and it needs to ruin sight picture while aiming.
The Deviation system can still take priority while firing from the hip. Yet, while sighting it should be an accuracy system almost entirely based off of recoil and maintaining sight picture.
You know I wonder if they went with random deviation over displayed recoil for anti-cheating purposes. There is no getting around the random deviation but if you were somehow able to suppress or correct for the visual displayed recoil you would have a deadly accurate zero recoil weapon. It's the cheater/hackers wet dream.
You don't "want to prone" as support, you NEED to prone, firing the PKM standing or even crouching is horrible. You're already practically stationary and almost any attack from the front will hit you in the head, there's a reason most kits prefer to fire their gun standing.
This is where you and your argument seriously falters I'm afraid. The stats of the PKM clearly show that upon crouching the PKM still has a far superior accuracy than the assault rifles. Not only that but it still has a better accuracy firing while standing, as long as you're still and not strafing that is.
Okay, since there's this big rant going apparently, let me throw together why I'm so annoyed by the direction this is going:
In 1.12 (and every version prior to it), here's the support kit:
- You can drop prone and instantly fire
- You utterly demolish targets at close range
- You get unlimited frags and a base supply of 4
Here's what got changed in 1.2:
- You get better-than-assault-rifle accuracy crouching (if you wait)
- You get sniper-rifle-level accuracy prone
Why is it that up through 1.12 hardly anyone ever wanted to play support for anything but city maps, and even on city maps the number was pretty low, and people generally agreed the kit was underpowered, when these things that are apparently breaking it were always present?
Now in 1.2, everyone and their mother's playing support, and everyone's complaining, yet the "problem" isn't actually the things they changed? And why is it that people are complaining about the kit in general when the problem is clearly with a single gun, the PKM? Go ahead, TRY using the other LMGs, you'll find they're quite balanced.
You're just rambling. Consider dropping your rant in favor of a more common sensical outlook that assigns a logical role to Support within the larger kit ecosystem.
As opposed to your suggested "logical role?" Ammo vending machine that's a free kill for anyone with a sniper rifle or hand grenade? I'll take a semi-misguided assault clone over that any day. Rebalanced, support would essentially be assault with more firepower and less mobility, and no real weapon against vehicles.
And yes, it is plenty differentiated from assault. Half the reason assault is chosen is the grenade launcher, or the G3, which does more damage than the PKM if you didn't know. If you can't figure out what the smoke canister is for, try using one next time an APC rolls in. You'll find it does a wonderful job of helping you not get shot, when used properly. Oh yeah, and SF users can kill jeeps, instakill infantry, blind whole squads and flag defense groups, and make vehicle drivers unable to see anything but white long enough for C4 to get stuck to their side. All of the automatic rifles are better for run-and-gun than the PKM. But what do I know, assault sucks, why would anyone play that kit?
Who said anything about real world? I'm talking BF2 - and they're still completely different guns.
You mentioned weight, since BF2 has no concept of "weight," I'd say my assumption that you were bringing the real world into the equasion was well-founded.
And completely different guns? I meant in how they were used. You basically had to get in close, then demolish them the instant you got a clean shot. 1.12 support was played almost exactly the same way as AT with the DAO, the difference is you didn't get a missile launcher, did get frags, and didn't have to reload nearly as much. You were also totally useless on any target outside throwing distance.
I've made a career out of defending the Sharqi TV station stairwells, which is to say nothing of Karkand's hotel and hotbox, plus various other key infantry-only areas.
A PKM-camper at the top of the Sharqi stairwell is squad bait. Someone sees the first guy die, throws a grenade up. I don't care if you can beat isolated noobs with short-term memory problems, I could do that long ago by standing up a flight with the grenade launcher. Now people just use claymores instead.
Same with the Karkand fence area, oh gee, I know what gun THAT is I'm hearing behind the corner. Thanks to the 1.2 standing nerf, I can be sure the grenade I throw's going to take out at least half of his health.
It sounds like you want to play Support like Assault. I recommend playing Assault and leaving Support to those of us who know how to apply it appropriately.
I recommend you go to hell, I'll play how I want, with what I want, you've got as much authority to tell me how to play as the gum I scraped off my work shoes this morning. Especially since my way of playing has worked quite well so far.
The PKM should NOT have SVD accuracy... i dont care how long its barrel is or how high its muzzle velocity is... thats not the point. Support should fill a specific role, as should all the classes in a class-based game. And sniper-rifle single shot accuracy does not promote achieving this role. In fact, the PKM should never have been included. It is a drastically different weapon that all the other light machine guns in the game and I think that alone is part of its problem.
Pre 1.2, the PKM was even then "broken", just not overpoweringly so. I am sure any support player from back then can remember the constant arguments between the [few] support players over single shots vs. controlled full auto. The people who learned to use PKM for support stressed the single shot mode, which is what worked best for PKM, while the people who used the other support guns stressed controlled bursts or full auto. Even then, IMO, the PKM was breaking faith with support's "role".
And what is this "role" I speak of? Well, I have stated this before, but I'll do it again, IMO light machine guns should be guns used effectively at small to medium range with medium damage that have accuracy best described as follows: Imagine several concentric circles. The first area would represent assualt rifle's firing cone. The next area would represent support LMG firing cones. There would be some overlap so that the LMG's would start out firing with the average shot having accuracy of, lets say, the last round on a 3-round burst maybe, or the end of a short auto burst of an assault rifle. The deviation would then increase out to a max that would be much tighter than 1.12 for an overall tighter firing cone, but with less single shot accuracy. For you viewing (dis)pleasure, I have made a simple diagram in word and paint to illustrate this:
I think the support guns should be used to target an AREA versus an INDIVIDUAL; not that you can't shoot an individual target, just that you make up for your lack of accuracy by firing many bullets (aka... a burst!!). The exact setup would require some balance testing and tweaking... the start of the support fire cone may need to be a little tighter or the max deviation may need to be a little wider, etc... but you get the basic idea I am suggesting. Granted, this is based on the specific role I think that support should play in the grand scheme of bf2, but I think it would really be a nice setup. I think it would work well for engaging an enemy or a small group of enemies at medium range and would still be quite effective at close range. Also, a player could lay down fire at long range and have the possibility to get hits if they have a good feel for the gun, but not be able to single-shot snipe with it. Not to mention these changes would be super easy to implement, requiring no coding whatsoever, just tweaking a few values. The different support guns could be differentiated by tweaking that cone of fire, for example, the m249, with its 200 rounds, could have a higher minimum deviation, but less deviation per shot, etc...
I have not used the SAW or RPK since patch 1.2 was released, but I have used the Type 95 and I feel like the it is almost perfect. The MG36 is not too bad because it has low damage, but it is still too accurate at long range, and the PKM is quite a joke. Those of you with experience with support from pre 1.2, take the Type 95 for a spin and see how it feels now. I personally think it is just about perfect in terms of balance. If the SAW still performs similarily, that can be used to gauge as well, but as I said, I have not used that gun.
I disagree with mobility penalties. The LMGs in this game are intended to be used in small squads and fireteams on the move... Well, with the exception of the PKM (its not so mobile)... also note the exception to the above paragraph in the PKM's high damage... starting to see why I think the PKM should never have been included? Penalties for going prone would be unneccesary with the deviation changes above. I think the recoil is fine as it is also if the accuracy is changed. As for standing while firing... I have fired an m249 and it is certainly a manuverable weapon that can be fired somewhat accurately standing if you are quite strong (its no bb-gun), but not nearly as accurately as an m16. The PKM having better accuracy than an assault rifle standing is a joke (So long as it has such a high damage, I will treat it like the big weapon it is, if its damage is lowered, I have no problem with it being represented as a small, manuverable weapon, but it cant be both high damage AND manuverable).
Either the PKM is going to have to have a damage nerf... which so many people would hate because "the PKM would tear you up in real life... 30 damage is stupid..." or its going to have to be heavily tweaked to fit the balance of the class and the game. The MG36 only requires some minor tweaking and the stock guns (I think... not fired them all) require very little or no tweaking at all.
Support should fill a specific role, as should all the classes in a class-based game.
It needs to be fairly flexible within that role though. A medic with an L85 can snipe to a degree, I used to pick medic for hunting snipers all the time. Many people pick medic and use it very aggressively. Assault can attack vehicles as well as infantry. Anti-tank with the DAO can smash infantry defenses quickly in addition to its ability to take down stuff on the road. Any of the kits with the assault rifle can fight back against snipers, even if to a limited extent, and snipe other players at a decent range.
Pre 1.2, the PKM was even then "broken", just not overpoweringly so. I am sure any support player from back then can remember the constant arguments between the [few] support players over single shots vs. controlled full auto. The people who learned to use PKM for support stressed the single shot mode, which is what worked best for PKM, while the people who used the other support guns stressed controlled bursts or full auto. Even then, IMO, the PKM was breaking faith with support's "role".
Back then there was also considerable argument over how good the PKM was in comparison with several of the other guns. The high ROF on the SAW and Type 95 made them better in many situations, the RPK was more or less the same in most situations. The PKM's main value was just the shock factor of getting such a big chunk of your health knocked off when the first bullet hit, and the fact that it was more accurate than the SAW/95.
And what is this "role" I speak of? Well, I have stated this before, but I'll do it again, IMO light machine guns should be guns used effectively at small to medium range with medium damage that have accuracy best described as follows:
I'd agree with that, but the big recurring complaint with support was that it had no long-range use at all. I was quite content with the support accuracy in 1.12, however bad it was, but I do think there needs to be at the very least acceptable single-shot accuracy. "Quantity" in 1.12 only worked up to about throwing distance, then the recoil kicked in so hard you had to rely on pure luck.
As a squad-oriented troop, you're going to be attacked from all ranges, and you need the ability to fight back. None of the other squadder kits (read: anything except engineer or sniper with a bolt-action) are strictly limited by range, even AT can knock out long-range targets with the missile launcher. It's ineffective, but given the right scenarios you can do it reliably. Long-range with 1.12 LMGs wasn't just unreliable, it was damn near impossible.
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