The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

Just out of curiosity, PlaneWhore, what ping do you typically play with?

Honestly, the total number of servers I have to choose from is pretty limited overall. I only play 64 player, and I only play server that rotate a variety of maps (Karkand, Wake, Sharqi, ect.) and are under a 100 ping. I'd guess the average ping of the server I play on is around 70, as server that are below a 50 ping for me fitting the above specifications I can count on one hand..

Firing missiles blindly at enemy bogies in a banked turn is not something I normally do. They usually end up missing. What I'm talking about is pursuing a perfectly leveled out SU-34.

Regardless I think the various airplane handling is the culprit and as such if those were adjusted to all match the J-10, the A2A would function more perfectly than it has ever functioned up till such a point.
For example, I followed the SU-34 into the MEC airbase where it was rearming. I was back about 150 meters and at the same altitude. I locked on, waited for flares, waited for another lock and fired 2 missiles- while he was still leveled out. They both chased him and "bounced" off careening to only God knows where. Hrmmm... He makes a slight bank to the left and heads towards the beach. I'm still on his tail and fire the other 4 just to see what happens. One hits and the other 3 miss. I then just finished him off with the cannon.

Again, if he had been near the end of a hard 180 degree turn, I could understand why missiles didn't hit. But to be in such a perfect position, those same missiles would take out a Mig or F-35 every single time. It's not the missiles- it's the aircraft you're firing at.

I notice the same thing. Literally every single missile I fire at an F-35B is a hit, while in the same token every missile fired at any an aircraft such as a J-10 from an F-35B seems to randomly veer off course for absolutely no reason.

This lends more credit to DICE completely wiping the AA slate clean and starting completely from scratch. Because clearly something along the line is clearly FUBARed.

[DrJambo]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

The major shame about all this, is the fact we'll have to wait 2+ months for anything to be forthcoming from DICE (i.e. a patch to fix things).

Until then the China vs US maps are a no go for US pilots.

[zipp0r]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

they should just revert A2A back to 1.12 style, so we can get back to using the cannons and using missiles for when the pilot makes a mistake.
longer dogfights with cannons makes the game better for everyone, since the 2 planes involved are effectively out of the battle for quite a while, especially when its two good pilots.
i still remember that dogfight i had with loki in 1.12, mig vsf35, it must have been a good 5-10mins long and we didnt have very good scores at the end of the round, because neither of us were bombing.thats teh win for ground troops and teh win for pilots!

[DrJambo]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

zipp0r get over 1.12. It was not good for ground troops as the majority of pilots didn't bother with dogfights for the very reason that they took too long to resolve (if at all)...

[sav112]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

You get my vote on this!

[Leeus]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

planewhore wrote:
In Reply To #83
"Not likely seeing as I'm sure to be on the Chinese team every round when I feel like piloting. I just want fair and balanced air combat, regardless of your team or plane selection."


A little honesty thats nice. That's all you had to say in the begining.

But we all know no 2 jets in air combat in real life are the same. And look st the basic stats for guns, the AK and the M16 are different. I don't hear you saying anything about that. You just want to pwn the sky. Simple as that.

Wait until the next patch when we prove that G to A missles still don't work.

[Linus]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

Outside of the PKM. Of course, when I say J-10, I'm referring to the much more expansive problem that occurs when players are able to win dogfights and gain air superiority based solely off of plane type. The MiG also falls in to this category. Imagine what kind of a riot would ensue if the tanks were unbalanced in this fashion so that the U.S. tank would dominate the MEC tank every single time to the extent that the U.S. tank would take absolutely no damage at all from the MEC tank. Imagine how this would effect the balance of power of Karkand.

The problem is when a plane becomes so overwhelmingly dominant it throws the whole balance of power off in the air in favor of one particular team (China). This has a ripple effect that makes itself very apparent on maps like Wake 2007, Dalian Plant, and to a lesser extent Dragon Valley where J-10s have free reign over boats and helicopters while the F-35B pilots, regardless of how good, are helpless to stop them.

Lets take a look at the progression of the J-10 throughout the patches as the AA missiles have changed.

1-1.12 - The J-10 was by no means a win against another pilot however it was a huge advantage that handicapped even the best of players when confronted with it. The J-10 got a little less dominant (unnoticable, really) after the first AA patch that improved AA a little bit, by actually giving the other planes an actual snowballs chance in hell of landing a missile against a J-10, but it still dominated.

1.20 - The J-10 became even more powerful with this patch as they could out turn any other plane, lose the AA lock, and return fire on the enemy plane with A2A missiles that had a near 100% hit rate, providing these unfortunate F-35B/F-18 pilots absolutely no chance to escape. However, with these insane AA missiles an F-35B could actually land missiles on a J-10, assuming the pilot was idiotic enough to let that happen.

1.21 - The J-10 still rules the sky, though it has had its power reduced slightly with the departure of the "uber-missiles", it still remains a virtually guaranteed win in a dogfight. More importantly, as of the 1.21 patch the J-10 is the only plane that can reliably avoid incoming missiles, while the other aircraft cannot. In fact, on this single fact alone one could consider the J-10 to be even more powerful in 1.21, then 1.20, relatively speaking of course.

My proposal to DICE to solve this problem once and for all:

Equalize the handling characteristics on all of the planes. When I say equalize, I mean just that, with exact mass, yaw/pitch rates, acceleration and top speed. Then to avoid cookie cutter syndrome give each plane an additional defining characteristic that does not serve to overpower the plane in the bid for air superiority but defines it from the others. The exact level of handling for the planes I believe should be all imported over to the J-10, as it is a faster plane which will make for more robust and skillful dogfights, and it is less stable than the other planes.

For example:

J-10: 30% more afterburner fuel than the standard in other planes

F-35B: Double the amount of cannon ammo, VTOL capabilities (obviously)

F-18: 2 extra bars of armor on the plane

MiG: 30% faster flare reload timer

These can continue on for the bombers, and be modified to what have you, but the basic concept remains the same.

Bottom line, with my solution in place the balance of air power would always go to the better pilot(s), as it should, and dogfights would become a test of skill and experience, rather than China selecting abilities.

That is all.

edit:

Taken from the thread I'd like to make two additional simple proposals to make this new air to air combat model more rich:

1) A more responsive throttle control system. Meaning, the moment you drop throttle you get that "air brake" and your plane immediately slows, and then when you engage full throttle once more your plane reaccelerates much faster. This will add a whole dimension to airplanes that never exisited, providing more skillful dogfights where the pilot the manages the throttle better could be the victor.

2) No pre-emptive AA warning for A2A missiles, and in addition to that a whole new "Incoming air to air missile" sound. Rewards pilots with fast reaction times, sneaky pilots, and those pilots who maintain situational awareness.

personally, I think the aircraft are still way too dominating in BF2.

And on small player loads, its just dumb as hell to have 6 or 8 aircraft
spawning every 60 seconds which in turn usually means 90% of the
players in the game are in the air. Thats just stupid. I think the spawns
should be based on current player load.. when you got 10-12 players,
having 1 jet and 1 chopper per side would be ok.

As far as the 'BIGGEST' balance issue goes in bf2.. its got to be the
obvious unbalanced maps, especially Wake Island.. What you get on this
map nearly EVERY game is a 40-50 ticket advantage MINIMUM because
the defending team goes into spawn raping mode easily thwarting off
any boaters coming ashore. And with a half way decent team, the
ticket advantage is much greater.

DICE put more attention into map detail, and looks, than it did in making
the game as balanced as possible. But then again, we are talking about
DICE here, who have less brains than a scarecrow...Any game that has
choppers taking direct tank shell hits and only smoking a little and flying
off, was made by obvious idiots.

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

zipp0r get over 1.12. It was not good for ground troops as the majority of pilots didn't bother with dogfights for the very reason that they took too long to resolve (if at all)...

Blame the players, not the game. Most pilots do not fly for the team, or with the teamwork oriented mindset that I have. Assuming the pilot was a threat to my team and scoring well I'd engage them and usually shoot them down in under 20 seconds, using either all cannons, all missiles, or a combination of both. Now it's so easy to shoot someone down it's a little silly.

In the 1.12 and earlier patches I would literally hit 80% of missiles versus a bomber plane, and probably 50-60% versus a fighter. Of course, it took technique, timing and skill to get them to land with such a high success rate.

[WhardieJones]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

USMC has uncap airbases in all maps and has essex to defend airfield. If you have problems with J-10 then run home. USMC has infinite supply of planes, stop whining. Good players adapt, the rest just whine. As painful as it was, I've adapted from 1.12 to 1.21, keep it the way it is.

[colony]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

personally, I think the aircraft are still way too dominating in BF2.

And on small player loads, its just dumb as hell to have 6 or 8 aircraft
spawning every 60 seconds which in turn usually means 90% of the
players in the game are in the air. Thats just stupid. I think the spawns
should be based on current player load.. when you got 10-12 players,
having 1 jet and 1 chopper per side would be ok.

As far as the 'BIGGEST' balance issue goes in bf2.. its got to be the
obvious unbalanced maps, especially Wake Island.. What you get on this
map nearly EVERY game is a 40-50 ticket advantage MINIMUM because
the defending team goes into spawn raping mode easily thwarting off
any boaters coming ashore. And with a half way decent team, the
ticket advantage is much greater.

DICE put more attention into map detail, and looks, than it did in making
the game as balanced as possible. But then again, we are talking about
DICE here, who have less brains than a scarecrow...Any game that has
choppers taking direct tank shell hits and only smoking a little and flying
off, was made by obvious idiots.

This is where you are wrong. Good pilots are only able to dominate rounds on alot of maps because of the opposition. Hey, your team doesnt have good pilots getting up into the air, its not the coding of the game, its your team's fault or your fault for not doing something about it.

The only maps that are very unbalanced are the chinese air maps, thats it. Every other map for the most part have balanced aircraft for both teams.

When a pilot dominates on non chinese maps, it is because of the opposition in the air as well as the opposition on the ground that just isnt up to snuff.

Ground AA works, A2A missiles hit much more frequently, there is no more excuse for it. Just take it or do something about it.

[Roger Smith]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

In 1.21 it still takes a level of skill to evade missiles with a J-10. Why? Reaction time. A J-10, while it is quite invincible in the hands of a pilot aware of this, it takes a moment for a J-10 to enter a turn fast and hard enough to dodge A2A missiles.
ok, yes it takes a small amount of skill to start hard turning the instant you hear a lock. but a skilled pilot is invaunerable regaurdless of weather the jet on thier tail is leading thier target or not (regaurdless of the enemy jets skill)

If you're not in a J-10, they're guaranteed to die.
nope

It's so dumbed down it's sad. Lock, fire, dead.
um am i missing something here? isnt j10 vs j10 lock fire dead?

But if it isn't shallow, please tell me what is so deep about locking, firing, and destroying the intended target.
*on someones tail
-leading your target
-keeping lock

*someones on your tail
-loosing them
-rapid direction change upon lock
-keeping them off your tail

If my changes went through I'd no longer have effortless air superiority, and the complete freedom to toast all planes without them being a threat in the slightest.
ok lets look at your changes

Equalize the handling characteristics on all of the planes. When I say equalize, I mean just that, with exact mass, yaw/pitch rates, acceleration and top speed. Then to avoid cookie cutter syndrome give each plane an additional defining characteristic that does not serve to overpower the plane in the bid for air superiority but defines it from the others. The exact level of handling for the planes I believe should be all imported over to the J-10, as it is a faster plane which will make for more robust and skillful dogfights, and it is less stable than the other planes.
how exactly is the same flying characteristics not cookie cutter? if every jet had j10 flying charcteristics, they would all be invaunerable and never attack eachother. thus ground forces would still be screwed.

You also clearly haven't flown a J-10 versus J-10 battle.
yeap, you got me here, or at least i dont remember it.

J-10 do not have a 100% missile dodge function, but rather versus the other planes who can't acquire a nice angle of attack it is very difficult.
they can aquire the angle, and the missile flys right up to the j10, but then decides to miss.



ps: you are an *******, you cant just discuss the issue without talking **** about someone youve never even played against. you are trying to make it so all planes can be imortal, which leaves ground aa screwed. you purposly neglect the real issue, which is that missiles miss that have no buisness missing. also your idea wouldnt be so bad if it was the jsf that was the mold all planes were cast of. but that would still be cookie cutter. you somehow think that air combat should be about a) the cannon, and b) missile avoidence. you think that missiles shouldnt work, because they dont fully work as now, and you dont want that changed. you suck, and i hate you.

[zipp0r]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

In 1.21 it still takes a level of skill to evade missiles with a J-10. Why? Reaction time. A J-10, while it is quite invincible in the hands of a pilot aware of this, it takes a moment for a J-10 to enter a turn fast and hard enough to dodge A2A missiles.
ok, yes it takes a small amount of skill to start hard turning the instant you hear a lock. but a skilled pilot is invaunerable regaurdless of weather the jet on thier tail is leading thier target or not (regaurdless of the enemy jets skill)

If you're not in a J-10, they're guaranteed to die.
nope

It's so dumbed down it's sad. Lock, fire, dead.
um am i missing something here? isnt j10 vs j10 lock fire dead?

But if it isn't shallow, please tell me what is so deep about locking, firing, and destroying the intended target.
*on someones tail
-leading your target
-keeping lock

*someones on your tail
-loosing them
-rapid direction change upon lock
-keeping them off your tail

If my changes went through I'd no longer have effortless air superiority, and the complete freedom to toast all planes without them being a threat in the slightest.
ok lets look at your changes

Equalize the handling characteristics on all of the planes. When I say equalize, I mean just that, with exact mass, yaw/pitch rates, acceleration and top speed. Then to avoid cookie cutter syndrome give each plane an additional defining characteristic that does not serve to overpower the plane in the bid for air superiority but defines it from the others. The exact level of handling for the planes I believe should be all imported over to the J-10, as it is a faster plane which will make for more robust and skillful dogfights, and it is less stable than the other planes.
how exactly is the same flying characteristics not cookie cutter? if every jet had j10 flying charcteristics, they would all be invaunerable and never attack eachother. thus ground forces would still be screwed.

You also clearly haven't flown a J-10 versus J-10 battle.
yeap, you got me here, or at least i dont remember it.

J-10 do not have a 100% missile dodge function, but rather versus the other planes who can't acquire a nice angle of attack it is very difficult.
they can aquire the angle, and the missile flys right up to the j10, but then decides to miss.



ps: you are an *******, you cant just discuss the issue without talking **** about someone youve never even played against. you are trying to make it so all planes can be imortal, which leaves ground aa screwed. you purposly neglect the real issue, which is that missiles miss that have no buisness missing. also your idea wouldnt be so bad if it was the jsf that was the mold all planes were cast of. but that would still be cookie cutter. you somehow think that air combat should be about a) the cannon, and b) missile avoidence. you think that missiles shouldnt work, because they dont fully work as now, and you dont want that changed. you suck, and i hate you.

lol, i just had to pick on this:

read what he said again CAREFULLY. he suggested giving the j10 the same handling as other jets, not the other jets getting the j10s handling.

j10 vs j10 = the pilot chasing will get the kill, providing they are the same skill.

G2A missiles track more aggresively than A2A, no-one is asking for that to be changed.

seriously read things carefully as you make yourself look like a plank that cant comprehend words and sentances.

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

I am not smart!

Hey Roger, congratulations. You accomplished absolutely nothing with that long-winded post, other than to expose yourself as a rookie pilot who knows absolutely nothing about what he is talking about. You don't even understand what I'm saying *groan*. At least when I create a big post like yours, I actually fill it with some content, factual data formulated from real experience piloting and plenty of gameplay.

I'm not going to respond to everything you've said in that post, but I'll just say this, not a single thing you said was factual (a couple little bits you posted had a kernel of truth). Nothing you've stated is supported by any facts, nor are they by my extensive gameplay experience in regards to airplanes and dogfighting.

When did I say anything about S2A missiles? Guess what Einstein, the J-10 gets hit by S2A just as much as an F-35B. You clearly have no understanding of these basic mechanics, so you either need to spend some time playing as an aviator or stop ranting about something you have no experience with.

If you still don't understand the problem with the J-10 roger, I emplore you to join up on the "CantStopGaming" BF2 server shortly (I'll be on that server within 30 minutes of this post on the nickname QQCUMBER, just search for it). I'll demonstrate to you in graphic detail the problem with the J-10 when the first China maps rolls around. I play that server often and the people know when a China map pops up its time to switch teams to China or enjoy getting annihilated. Just make sure you're on the U.S. team so you get a front row seat to the ass beating.

[jakswan]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

Well I thought 1.12 was no dogfighting, come on it was, even if it was the players.

So a return to 1.12 I don't want, tis the J10.

I do think the JSF needs some help, missiles often miss the MIG if the pilot plays his cards right but the JSF.. I watch a missile and think nah that won't do, gets them everytime, something not right there.

[Roger Smith]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

When did I say anything about S2A missiles?
so this entire thread was just to balance jets? not the game as a whole? you can say what you want about me, the problem will still remain.

Guess what Einstein, the J-10 gets hit by S2A just as much as an F-35B. um, no, no it doesnt. i can swoop the carrier, have the essex lock on, go into back view and watch the missiles fly right up to my enginre and peel off. where as at the airfield, the missiles will hit me in the jsf if i try that.