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The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

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  • The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

    Outside of the PKM. Of course, when I say J-10, I'm referring to the much more expansive problem that occurs when players are able to win dogfights and gain air superiority based solely off of plane type. The MiG also falls in to this category. Imagine what kind of a riot would ensue if the tanks were unbalanced in this fashion so that the U.S. tank would dominate the MEC tank every single time to the extent that the U.S. tank would take absolutely no damage at all from the MEC tank. Imagine how this would effect the balance of power of Karkand.

    The problem is when a plane becomes so overwhelmingly dominant it throws the whole balance of power off in the air in favor of one particular team (China). This has a ripple effect that makes itself very apparent on maps like Wake 2007, Dalian Plant, and to a lesser extent Dragon Valley where J-10s have free reign over boats and helicopters while the F-35B pilots, regardless of how good, are helpless to stop them.

    Lets take a look at the progression of the J-10 throughout the patches as the AA missiles have changed.

    1-1.12 - The J-10 was by no means a win against another pilot however it was a huge advantage that handicapped even the best of players when confronted with it. The J-10 got a little less dominant (unnoticable, really) after the first AA patch that improved AA a little bit, by actually giving the other planes an actual snowballs chance in hell of landing a missile against a J-10, but it still dominated.

    1.20 - The J-10 became even more powerful with this patch as they could out turn any other plane, lose the AA lock, and return fire on the enemy plane with A2A missiles that had a near 100% hit rate, providing these unfortunate F-35B/F-18 pilots absolutely no chance to escape. However, with these insane AA missiles an F-35B could actually land missiles on a J-10, assuming the pilot was idiotic enough to let that happen.

    1.21 - The J-10 still rules the sky, though it has had its power reduced slightly with the departure of the "uber-missiles", it still remains a virtually guaranteed win in a dogfight. More importantly, as of the 1.21 patch the J-10 is the only plane that can reliably avoid incoming missiles, while the other aircraft cannot. In fact, on this single fact alone one could consider the J-10 to be even more powerful in 1.21, then 1.20, relatively speaking of course.

    My proposal to DICE to solve this problem once and for all:

    Equalize the handling characteristics on all of the planes. When I say equalize, I mean just that, with exact mass, yaw/pitch rates, acceleration and top speed. Then to avoid cookie cutter syndrome give each plane an additional defining characteristic that does not serve to overpower the plane in the bid for air superiority but defines it from the others. The exact level of handling for the planes I believe should be all imported over to the J-10, as it is a faster plane which will make for more robust and skillful dogfights, and it is less stable than the other planes.

    For example:

    J-10: 30% more afterburner fuel than the standard in other planes

    F-35B: Double the amount of cannon ammo, VTOL capabilities (obviously)

    F-18: 2 extra bars of armor on the plane

    MiG: 30% faster flare reload timer

    These can continue on for the bombers, and be modified to what have you, but the basic concept remains the same.

    Bottom line, with my solution in place the balance of air power would always go to the better pilot(s), as it should, and dogfights would become a test of skill and experience, rather than China selecting abilities.

    That is all.

    edit:

    Taken from the thread I'd like to make two additional simple proposals to make this new air to air combat model more rich:

    1) A more responsive throttle control system. Meaning, the moment you drop throttle you get that "air brake" and your plane immediately slows, and then when you engage full throttle once more your plane reaccelerates much faster. This will add a whole dimension to airplanes that never exisited, providing more skillful dogfights where the pilot the manages the throttle better could be the victor.

    2) No pre-emptive AA warning for A2A missiles, and in addition to that a whole new "Incoming air to air missile" sound. Rewards pilots with fast reaction times, sneaky pilots, and those pilots who maintain situational awareness.

  • #2
    Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

    Kinda makes me wish we had a direct line to the dev team sometimes

    They need to see your PKM video and they need to read this post.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

      How we can make this go 40 pages when I agree.

      Wake is the biggest issue, choppers have no where to hide, China has air dominance.

      I really would not like to see the J10 nerfed it's great fun to fly. Yet to play new patch can they aviod A2A easily or S2A or both.

      Variety is nice so a uniform plane would add balance but would lose something.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

        but at least the F-35B is pretty and the J-10 is ugly like fat woman

        die with style

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

          Disagreed. Disagreed. Disagreed.

          In no way there should be a flat-medium with all the planes handling characteristics. What youre asking is noble- 100% skill factor in dogfights.
          SKills however dont mean intelligence and youre taking the intelligence factor out of the equation.

          F35B
          Roll- 3/2
          Loop- 7/6
          Speed- 1020/1410
          AB-11 seconds (10)
          Reaction time (joystick movement to plane movement)- 0 seconds

          J-10
          Roll- 5/3.5 (prior 3/2)
          Loop- 6/5
          Speed- 1100/1320
          AB- 7 seconds, maybe even 8 (prior 13, or was it 15(!!!!!))
          Reaction speed- sluggish, ~1 second

          MiG-29
          Roll- 4/3
          Loop- 7/6
          Speed- 910/1060
          AB- 13
          Reaction time- 0 seconds

          F-18
          Roll- 3/2 (prior 4/3)
          Loop- 7/6
          Speed- 960/1120 (prior 960/1140)
          AB- 11 (prior 13)
          Reaction time- 0 seconds

          Other improvements- FASTER, FASTER and MORE EFFECTIVE throttle control. Bring throttle control even more into the fight.

          What would this achieve? Sure, J-10 can fly in circles, but only an idiot will follow it. Disengage and reengage. If you have a set of missiles that work (between 1.2 and 1.12) you CAN step to J-10s toes. If J-10 starts chasing you, complex evasive maneuvers and the jet is gone from your ass. Both case with F18 and F35B. However, now in chases, F-18 against J-10 is like MiG-29 against F-35B. Except when J-10 decided to make tight turns.

          I would have loved to see J-10 full loop time being made equal to F-35Bs, however this can be equalized by taking J-10s AB advantage. F35B must chase the J-10 for 7 seconds until J-10s afterburners are depleted, then kick it with the missiles. As soon as J-10s ABs are depleted, F35B still has a substantial ammount left that will keep it on par with J-10 in turns.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

            100% Agree. This must be addressed in the next patch. Nerf the J10

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

              I like your idea Chris, the problem with it however is we are talking about DICE here. You cannot make something so complex where dogfighting becomes elegant and layered simply because DICE will never be able to get the numbers at an ideal level to begin with and it is almost a guarantee than new imbalances will be created. Intelligence isn't really the factor that begins to come in to play, but rather a formulaic approach to dogfight. I'm in plane A, they are in plane B, in such a situation strategy C works the best, employ strategy C. Again, doesn't take a rocket scientist, and this results in a severe disadvantage for the casual gamers and other assorted inexperienced players who don't read forums and know which planes do what best.

              Next issue. While some of the variables will fail to be important, others will be. For example, consider that one single axis of movement decides if a missile can turn sharply enough to hit you or not. I'll be certain to be flying the plane that has that highest numbers in that statistic.

              My idea is simple. Simplicity can be a beautiful thing. It is something DICE can implement without smoke coming out of their ears. It also absolutely ensures that skill is the overwhemling factor in dogfighting. The best pilots will be able to shake the newbies, and then line those same newbies up in a fashion where they're unable to escape, they match them in the turn with identical handling characteristics, and then blow them out of the sky.

              I agree with you on the faster and more effective throttle control, but the basics need to be covered before DICE decides to get fancy.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

                I do agree with you to some extent . They do need to tone down the J-10 down abit . But the F-35B does have some advantages ive noticed , I find it easyer for tailing a target . But once the J-10 gets behind you well if he's good your screwed .

                Btw Keyboard flying Rulez :rock:

                Im not braging at all but i have a 6.23kdr on my main acount . And 138 to 13 on my other . Just hate hearing since the " BF42 Wake island " people complain about flying with a KB :blabla: Its not that hard people lol. Anyways i need sleep but what the hell im off to find a sever , and smoke this bowl :laugh: eh

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

                  It's easy to say "Eww no way" when talking about so called cookie cutter planes, but honestly that's the approach to just about every other vehicle in the game. Like PW said, imagine if their was a performance gap as major as this in something like the tanks. In a game as arcade as this, where you don't have to worry about things like bleeding off energy or pulling too many G's, the only way to have real balance is to give the planes the same flight model.

                  I would like to see it adjusted so that all of the fighters can achieve about a 70% chance to dodge air to air missles in the hands of a good pilot (so tone down the J-10 just a bit, and buff the other fighters to match). This would bring the cannons back into things, which may not be realistic, but it is a lot more fun. I would also consider either shortening the lock time for air to air missles, or maybe not giving the pilot the warning beeps while the missle is acquiring lock and instead the first warning they get is the solid tone of the locked missle. This would make reaction time a priority, once you heard that lock you would have to make your move to evade very quickly. It would also reward people for sneaking in behind someone and choosing the right time to engage (like if they slowed to rearm or make a bombing run); and it would punish those who don't maintain situational awareness by keeping an eye on their six.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

                    Ghost "gets it".

                    I also agree with only giving a warning alarm in A2A when the missiles are launched. That'd be a real slick change that would reward pilots who maintain a situation awareness, and have those "twitch" reaction times. Perhaps, a whole different warning buzzer all together for A2A missiles, since they are officially a different beast in 1.21.

                    No warning buzzer till missile has launched + guaranteed evasion for a full on hard turn of A2A missiles would make for some extremely exciting and skillful air to air combat I imagine. Similar flight models also make cannons a much more viable option.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

                      Christopher idea sounds awesome but I'm pretty sure Dice will be pulled off BF2 once Armoured Fury releases. I'd not be at all surprised if 90% of their resource is now on BF2142.

                      Making that many changes would not get approved I suspect. If DICE go to EA and say 'we're making all planes the same' then I think they'll get the ok for it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

                        I'm not so much of a pilot so i will only comment this remark u made:

                        Originally posted by PlaneWhore
                        Imagine what kind of a riot would ensue if the tanks were unbalanced in this fashion so that the U.S. tank would dominate the MEC tank every single time to the extent that the U.S. tank would take absolutely no damage at all from the MEC tank. Imagine how this would effect the balance of power of Karkand.
                        I don't mean to underestimate the significance of air superiority, but since i have never seen anyone cap a flag with a J-10, and since the AA works alot better now, i'm not worried about J-10's being able to make a bunch of losers on the ground win a round.

                        If the J-10 was 2 seated and carried LGB's so that it could take out 10's of tanks without resupplying, then i'd be ****ed.

                        edit. And yes, sorry, i do see that we are talking about winning dogfights rather than winning rounds here, but i just like to play it versatile:

                        There are rounds when the J-10 with a good pilot keeps pwning me in the air and bombs my butt of occasionally-thats when i adapt and stay away from the planes.

                        Then there are rounds when i score well with a F-18 and no one can shoot me down- that's when i just enjoy it while it lasts .

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

                          How do you guys feel about the minimum speed that jets can move at? I've always found seeing a jet slowly glide across a map really retarded. Can be very annoying if he's trying to gun your chopper down too, very hard to evade.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

                            although the j10 is better, i think its more that the f35b is a crap plane. its twitchy, its slow and it cant turn that well. so why not ramp it up a little ? it doesnt need to be alot and it doesnt need to match the j10 and i wouldnt want it to either.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

                              Originally posted by NoseKi||s
                              I don't mean to underestimate the significance of air superiority, but since i have never seen anyone cap a flag with a J-10, and since the AA works alot better now, i'm not worried about J-10's being able to make a bunch of losers on the ground win a round.

                              If the J-10 was 2 seated and carried LGB's so that it could take out 10's of tanks without resupplying, then i'd be ****ed.
                              Oh, it matters. Every single game of Wake 2007 and Dalian Plant I play Chinese side, I win the game for my team all by myself (the only exception to this rule, is if I miss the plane). Their is only one reason for that, the confidence afforded to me in the J-10. I know the other pilots can't touch me, and if I'm careful I'll be out of range of the other sources of enemy AA.

                              So that leaves me free to annhiliate the enemy helicopters and boats unopposed and prevent the enemy from making landfall. This alone can win a game, easily. Airplanes are very powerful in this scenario. Need proof? View my video just filmed a couple days ago @ http://www.totalbf2.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60931 , it is a perfect demonstration of exactly what I'm talking about.

                              In the new air to air combat model with balanced planes, an enemy fighter could engage me regardless of what team, and force me to fight back or die, taking a lot of pressure off of his team and allowing them to push forward. As of current though as I said, if an F-35B gets on my tail I can pretty much spin in a circle, I'm behind them and I kill them. Either that or flat out ignore them.

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