The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

Roger, you're warped perception of this game is stunning.

are you seriously trying to argue that pilot skill in manuvering has anything to do with the aa missiles missing? because it doesnt. turning hard is not skill, period. when a missile in your flight path flys up to your engine and then simply misses, thats just bad gamedesign. further more, if you dont like the model of modern air combat, you can go back to 1942.

1.11 Patch that was the case. Evasive turns had to be planned, and awarded you a better chance of success turning in one direction as opposed to the other. That was only one variable, but there were many more. In 1.21 it still takes a level of skill to evade missiles with a J-10. Why? Reaction time. A J-10, while it is quite invincible in the hands of a pilot aware of this, it takes a moment for a J-10 to enter a turn fast and hard enough to dodge A2A missiles.

not if they are out of the missiles turn radius. or they put something between the missile and them. in modern air combat, the goal is not to let someone on your tail.

If you're not in a J-10, they're guaranteed to die. I'll prove it ingame at your request. It's so dumbed down it's sad. Lock, fire, dead. Ask xmetallicaxguitaristx off these forums if you don't believe me. Me and him have been playing a bit together and he's seen it first hand, as I joke over Ventrillo when I spot an F-35B to kill. Stuff like "Dissapearing from radar in 3, 2 1". I feel bad for the F-35B pilot because they did nothing wrong typically, but that doens't mean I'm not pleased I'm the guy in the "I Win" button.

thats what all air combat is like except the j10. with jsf vs jsf for isntance. you are trying to manuver and evade your enemy, where as j10 vs j10, is cannon only combat. which isnt what modern air combat is about. the cannon should be a last ditch out of ammo effort in the game, and the crappy air missiles are impeading this.

J-10 can hit other J-10 with missiles. You shouldn't talk out of your a$$ about things you know nothing about. A missile fired from a platform such as a J-10 at another J-10 (assuming the pilot is at the right vector) has a very good chance of striking the intended target. But of course nowhere near the silly 100% chance of hitting missiles on an F-35B no matter what you do. Again, also nowhere near the 0% chance an F-35B has to hit a non-brain-damaged J-10 pilot. A happy medium.

shallow no, unbalanced, yes.

I'm glad you admit the J-10 is unbalanced. But if it isn't shallow, please tell me what is so deep about locking, firing, and destroying the intended target.

frankly i must say that you seriously have no idea how to balance this situation and further more, you do not want the situation balanced. you want planes to be able to dodge a missile that was aimed or even lead at them. and that means pilots dont have to have situational awareness, because it doesnt matter, they can always just dodge it. the real skill in jets is getting someone off your tail without getting killed, and then getting on their tail, none of this missile dogeing shinanigance. oh and ps, the cannon rocks planes more then ever.

Roger, arguing with me about the facts of 1.21 piloting isn't going to get you anywhere fast, as I've got a much better grasp of the finer points of airplane balance. To say I want things imbalanced is a laugh, because as of current I just go to the Chinese team either way and have an overwhemling advantage. If my changes went through I'd no longer have effortless air superiority, and the complete freedom to toast all planes without them being a threat in the slightest.

You also clearly haven't flown a J-10 versus J-10 battle. It's very balanced and requires skill. J-10 do not have a 100% missile dodge function, but rather versus the other planes who can't acquire a nice angle of attack it is very difficult. Don't talk to me about the plane cannons either, because I'm far more accurate with them than you could ever hope to be, but that won't help you versus the semi competent J-10 pilot you just peppered. In fact, in a scenario like that one, you'd be much much better off leaving the J-10 alone and hoping he won't spot you for a little while longer.

[imported_ExtraSolar]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

This post is very helpful. I was always wondering what was up with me being blown out of the sky by a J10 and nothing else. I can fly pretty decent, but I was thinking that the guys in the J10s were just better than me and they knocked me out every single time no matter how well I tried to outmanuver them. grrrr

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

Hmmm I understand we dont want clones of planes, but when you fly a F35 vs a Mig 29 or an F18 vs a Mig 29, it is a much better dogfight. Sure the Mig turns better than the F35, but F35 accelerates faster as well as slightly better rolling and "stability".

This makes for great fighting. Just last night I was playing F18 vs Mig and it was very enjoyable. Some missiles would hit, others would miss. It was never a guaranteed hit, so to finish em off I would gun them. This is how it should be, IMO.

A MiG will own a F-35B everytime considering equally skilled pilots. Bottom line is if you use any other flight model besides the J-10 you're making planes easier. For two reasons. First the J-10 is the most unstable plane, and as a result the most difficult to bomb with, and aim the cannons with. Second off, the J-10 is the only plane with enough maneuverbility to dodge missiles in a reliable fashion during a full speed turn.

F-18 versus a MiG is a very good dogfight because the planes are pratically identical handling wise. However, J-10 versus J-10 provides pilots with a far more skillful dogfighting experience. Missiles work, cannons work, and the best pilot always wins hands down.

[colony]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

A MiG will own a F-35B everytime considering equally skilled pilots.

LOL I dont think you have played enough in ANY of those jets against each other to know what you are saying.

An F35b can disengage a following Mig with its superior acceleration. The F35b missiles actually hit Migs, whoah. Try it some time.

[TheGhost]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

are you seriously trying to argue that pilot skill in manuvering has anything to do with the aa missiles missing? because it doesnt. turning hard is not skill, period.

Guess what, just pointing your plane in someones general direction for two seconds to get a lock and fire a 100% hit missle takes even less skill. Against other planes the J-10 can just turn hard, J-10 against J-10 missles can still be dodged but it takes more to do so. This is why all planes should get the same turning ability as what the J-10 has now. The skill will be in A) waiting for the right time to switch to missles and fire, and B) if missles fail it's your skill with the cannon that will count. The cannon is a much better test of who is a better dog fighter than missles ever could hope to be. I wouldn't really care if all my missles missed, I would just wax the other guy with the cannons. Sounds to me like you just want an easy kill weapon against other planes to cover your lack of ability.

*Edit*

You can bitch all you want about how using the cannons isn't "modern air combat", but frankly it just makes you look stupid. The only thing related to modern air combat in this game is that the planes we fly are modeled to look like modern jets, that's it, similarities stop there. Modern air combat takes place over ranges measured in hundreds of miles, it is backed up by information being fed to the jet through powerful radar both on the jet and from multiple other sources, in modern air combat the fight is over before you ever come close to seeing the other pilot. BF2 air combat is close range WW2 style fighting with planes that just happen to be represented in game as modern jets. Because of the type of fighting it is, it only makes sense that cannons would be an important aspect of it. Cannons also make it a lot more fun and are a much more reliable test of skill, and those are probably the two most important factors to consider in a game setting.

[Virtus2]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

Here is a prime example. Me.

When I get behind a J-10 I rape i get 40+ kills.
The second I end the round and switch to USMC vs. the same pilots i get raped and usaully get about 2 kills from bombing then get absolutly demolished. I may not have a "joystick" but i dont really need one.

P.s is a joystick that much better than a mouse with air sensy up to about 4-5?

Guess what, just pointing your plane in someones general direction for two seconds to get a lock and fire a 100% hit missle takes even less skill. Against other planes the J-10 can just turn hard, J-10 against J-10 missles can still be dodged but it takes more to do so. This is why all planes should get the same turning ability as what the J-10 has now. The skill will be in A) waiting for the right time to switch to missles and fire, and B) if missles fail it's your skill with the cannon that will count. The cannon is a much better test of who is a better dog fighter than missles ever could hope to be. I wouldn't really care if all my missles missed, I would just wax the other guy with the cannons. Sounds to me like you just want an easy kill weapon against other planes to cover your lack of ability.

*Edit*

You can bitch all you want about how using the cannons isn't "modern air combat", but frankly it just makes you look stupid. The only thing related to modern air combat in this game is that the planes we fly are modeled to look like modern jets, that's it, similarities stop there. Modern air combat takes place over ranges measured in hundreds of miles, it is backed up by information being fed to the jet through powerful radar both on the jet and from multiple other sources, in modern air combat the fight is over before you ever come close to seeing the other pilot. BF2 air combat is close range WW2 style fighting with planes that just happen to be represented in game as modern jets. Because of the type of fighting it is, it only makes sense that cannons would be an important aspect of it. Cannons also make it a lot more fun and are a much more reliable test of skill, and those are probably the two most important factors to consider in a game setting.

I would have to argue. I think the USMC tank is 100% times better (look at my stats im a tank whore i would know :p) But i dont think they should even the tanks because the usmc is good at infranty but i think it isnt as good as the T-90 at armored vehichles. Like the choppers too.. the MEC have a hard to control tank in the air chopper because of the sweet guns and the USMC have a swift weaker chopter. They made these differances in the beginning of the game to add "flavor" to the armies and make them all different. But heres what they should do to the planes.
I think they should make it like so but with a little differance in between

J-10= great dogfighter okay bomber weak guns
Mig-29= okay dogfighter okay bomber okay guns
F-35B weak dogfighter great bomber okay guns

*note there should be the slightest difference inbetween but still should be able to be noticed.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

A MiG will own a F-35B everytime considering equally skilled pilots. Bottom line is if you use any other flight model besides the J-10 you're making planes easier. For two reasons. First the J-10 is the most unstable plane, and as a result the most difficult to bomb with, and aim the cannons with. Second off, the J-10 is the only plane with enough maneuverbility to dodge missiles in a reliable fashion during a full speed turn.

F-18 versus a MiG is a very good dogfight because the planes are pratically identical handling wise. However, J-10 versus J-10 provides pilots with a far more skillful dogfighting experience. Missiles work, cannons work, and the best pilot always wins hands down.

PW- this is the case only when the F-35B pilots only idea of trottle control is "FULL SPEED AHEAD, AYE AYE!". If you lower the airspeed on your joystick rudder to 50-100 KPH lower than MiGs, you will own MiG in chase. MiG has nowhere to go, whereas you have that extra speed AND that enourmous afterburner speed aswell. Its a hell of a battle, takes a hell of a lot attention from the F-35B pilot. But once throttle control is mastered, you will see by yourself, that the MiG is obselete and has absolutely no advantages other than 3 seconds extra AB timer.

This is why I desire BF2 jets to have faster response to throttle change.

Other than that, you already know my opinion about your idea to make every plane 100% equal to each other (in handling).

EDIT: Mouse? I have this funny theory. If youre not using a Joystick, your evasive maneuvers are more chaotic. But its a bitch to chase a jet with it. I come from Keyboard+keyboard style, jut joystick improved my results tenfold.

[jakswan]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

I've always thought the MIG v JSF is a fairly even fight this is mainly Oman and Zatar as I recall. Oman is fine as it's 2v1.

I rather not return to the land of no dogfights ala 1.12 and would like to keep the J10, why would reducing the armour not work, am I missing something?

[imported_Wasp]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

Hey hey hey, tell me more about that Eurotractor. Is it really that bad? What it lacks in?

The flying behaviour is completely bogus. Especially on turns. Doesn't feel
like a plane.. It's slow and jerky. Hard to understand how this got through
beta testing..

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

The flying behaviour is completely bogus. Especially on turns. Doesn't feel
like a plane.. It's slow and jerky. Hard to understand how this got through
beta testing..

Very odd. Everyone hoped it would be a miracle drug against J-10 disease. Thanks for the info, Wasp and Colony.

[exho]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

They really need to fix this and fast. Im tired of wasting all 6 of my missels on a J10 thats flying right infront of me and I have a clean lock, Then they turn around get on my 6 and fire 2 and Im dead no matter what I do.

[troybob]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

planes being equal across the board? negative - thats like only having one fighter to choose from in Mortal Kombat. Use the advantages, escape the disadvantages. I think they call it adapting.

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

planes being equal across the board? negative - thats like only having one fighter to choose from in Mortal Kombat. Use the advantages, escape the disadvantages. I think they call it adapting.

LOL. Sorry but the F-35B doesn't have any advantages. Unless of course you consider more cannon ammo a real "advantage" compared to the J-10 which has 1) missile dodging ability 2) better handling all around 3) and (because of opponents crap planes) the missiles the J-10 fires almost always hit.

I'll take the J-10 any day of the week, hell, I'd take the J-10 even with 3 bars of health and it'd still have a massive advantage.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

Kind of odd that people consider +300 rounds of ammo a real advantage. I mean, you can replenish your cannon ammo in a blink of an eye... The only reason youd need those extra 300 is if you are determined to keep the enemy air assets down for a prolongued period of time.

planes being equal across the board? negative - thats like only having one fighter to choose from in Mortal Kombat. Use the advantages, escape the disadvantages. I think they call it adapting.

You can never adapt with a HMWWV against a tank. Its called "cut your losses and pick your fights".

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

Bottom line is the airplanes are the only vehicle in the game where one or two of them are clearly better than all the rest to a huge extent.

• The choppers are well balanced in the advantage and disadvantage department, while one is faster with a weaker gun, while one is slower and less manevuerable but to compensate has a cannon with more damage and 3 or 4 times the splash damage radius.
• Tanks are all virtually the same, and that works great for balance as the best tank driver will almost always win in a stand off barring interference, plus I've never heard of such a thing as a "T-90 Whore".
• Transport are all virtually the same, with Vodnik and Hummer while looking diffierent respond pretty much the same with identical mounted guns.
• APC are similar as well with the only real difference is one has a faster gun with less damage, one has a slower main gun with more damage.
• Finally, the transport helicopters, which since the Blackhawk had the minigun nerfed they are again, virtually identical despite the different configuration.

So the real question is, why does DICE feel aircraft have to be so radically different to the point where one tlype of aircraft always shoots down the other with near 100% reliability (assuming the person in the cockpit of the J-10 isn't a mental defective)? I get the feeling it's more of a mistake than anything, and DICE didn't realize that having a more manevuerable plane would have such a profound impact on the entire balance of the game and maps which supported these planes. I mean, come on... a little extra cannon ammo, and you consider that balanced advantage versus disadvantage?