Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

[Alcorr]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Apparently you missed the part about positioning and initiative - both of which are hard to achieve and maintain. You also missed the part about the flares, and the part about the turn angle - both of which affect the A2A effectiveness.

I swear some of you only see what you want to see, if only to keep your tired arguments on life support.

Actually I haven't read the whole thread but from game experience with 1.2 I can tell you this.

Flares.....you might as well not count that as an option, I mean it saves you a whole 3 seconds...what are you going to do with that?

Even making crazy turns has no effect on the AA missiles...they miss about 1% of the time with no flares.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

I have nothing to prove to you - look at my post history and you'll see. I only say what I believe, even if it's unpopular. In this case it just coincides with some other folks. That's that.

Who do you think you are, pal?
You seem to believe that youre the only one who is stating what he believes in. Guess what, I do the EXACT same. Yet you didnt have a problem questioning my motives when you posted the tongue up the ass part? Guess what, I believe that your posts are based on a wish to be popular, because they match with the mindless dribble around here.
Like I said, pack mentality.

We're not pre-patch anymore.

Doesnt stop you from having the "It now takes skills" attitude. No, it took more skills earlier. This is a different atmosphere. A battle for the first lock, which is easier to achieve than wearing your opponent down for an effective missile opportunity and constantly keeping that machine gun hot.

Its different, fact.
Its not going to change, possibly a fact.
People have to live (play) with it, fact.
It takes more skills now, so far mostly newer players agree on that.

Apparently you missed the part about positioning and initiative - both of which are hard to achieve and maintain. You also missed the part about the flares, and the part about the turn angle - both of which affect the A2A effectiveness.

Absolutely all of the same applied to the dogfighting before. Its just that theres now a need to constantly keep your back clean. The dogfighting atmosphere has changed to where its imperative to just have a lockon and keep your back clean. Theres no need for necktwisting aerial acrobatics.

I swear some of you only see what you want to see, if only to keep your tired arguments on life support.

At any given time in this topic I could say the exact same thing about you.


Listen. I dont have a problem with pre-launch time. Its obvious that the one who has an initiative in a battle comes with an advantage, but that advantage alone should not bring him the victory in a game. I dont believe in 100% effectiveness of a fire-and-forget weapon. I dont think its a smart move to have these in an envirmonment where so much depends on personal skill levels.
Why STA needs to have an uber-effective weapon? Because DICE has shown that they cannot present STA in a fun fashion so people could learn to use them. So, like now. The alternative is to give a weapon that needs no experience, no skills. Its dont. However, DICE overdid it, because we still have a chopper issue. So the final touch would be to give the choppers an edge over AA, because 1 chopper hasnt got an edge over AA right now, expecially when theres more than 1 targeting that chopper.
Since Im not an experienced chopper pilot, those guys know a bit better what needs to be done to keep the choppers off the easy-kill list.

Just in case, I apologize that this has gone to a personal level, Variable, but just remember that you were the initiator on this one.

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

I don't expect every one to agree with me, but I do expect those who disagree with me and think everything with the current state of the game is perfect to provide a little more solid evidence to indicate that they are correct and that I am somehow misguided.

I'm honest when I say dogfighting is no longer fun for me, but it's about more than just dogfighting. It's about being the "complete" pilot for your team, and gaining air superiority for your team. That's why I was always so successful as a pilot, as the enemy pilots didn't stand a chance with me in the sky and thus they couldn't do all the other things that planes could do. What people fail to realize is dogfighting is the absolute core foundation of air superiority, and when that balance in regards to AA and dogfighting in general was broken, then the rest of the airplane equation (and things that they can contribute to their team) collapses.

[Digital-Boy]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

It's about being the "complete" pilot for your team, and gaining air superiority for your team. That's why I was always so successful as a pilot, as the enemy pilots didn't stand a chance with me in the sky and thus they couldn't do all the other things that planes could do. What people fail to realize is dogfighting is the absolute core foundation of air superiority

Most of the pilots I come across are of the "incomplete" "ignore all the enemy aircraft and drop bombs in a F-35B all day" variety. :p

[tsh2005]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

I don't expect every one to agree with me, but I do expect those who disagree with me and think everything with the current state of the game is perfect to provide a little more solid evidence to indicate that they are correct and that I am somehow misguided.

I'm honest when I say dogfighting is no longer fun for me, but it's about more than just dogfighting. It's about being the "complete" pilot for your team, and gaining air superiority for your team. That's why I was always so successful as a pilot, as the enemy pilots didn't stand a chance with me in the sky and thus they couldn't do all the other things that planes could do. What people fail to realize is dogfighting is the absolute core foundation of air superiority, and when that balance in regards to AA and dogfighting in general was broken, then the rest of the airplane equation (and things that they can contribute to their team) collapses.

good post

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Most of the pilots I come across are of the "incomplete" "ignore all the enemy aircraft and drop bombs in a F-35B all day" variety. :p

That's a good thing for you, or not, depending which team you were on. In 1.12 my highest priority was always keeping any good pilots (helicopters and planes) grounded through superior dogfighting ability (and a little bit of cheese runway camping), and the impact it could have on the outcome of a match was staggering, as it should be.

Did I mention, I also miss engaging helicopters that didn't die in a 1-2 second burst of cannon fire, and how did they justify reducing the hitpoints on those sad things in the first place?

[WarGimp]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

I don't expect every one to agree with me, but I do expect those who disagree with me and think everything with the current state of the game is perfect to provide a little more solid evidence to indicate that they are correct and that I am somehow misguided.

I don't think anyone has ever stated that "everything is perfect". There's room for improvement, for sure. There's awlays room for improvement.

I've tried my best to discuss concepts and ideas in that direction, but the constant "WHaaaaaa! this sucks!!!" (not specifically you, PW) drown out all good constructive coversation. Your ego doesn't help either. Understand that when you make claims about being the ultimate athority on all things BF2 while obviously being biased towards aircraft use (Your name is Planewhore, FFS! :p) that tends to set some people on edge.

Tone it down and you'd get better results. This post is a good example.

I'm honest when I say dogfighting is no longer fun for me, but it's about more than just dogfighting.

Granted.
Understand that when I say I like the new system better, I have exactly the same right to enjoy it. No, I don't think it's perfect, as already stated, but I never had fun in a plane before 1.2. I never got that feeling of tention and challange that compells me to play games in general. I felt that it was dull and unbalanced.

That's my opinion and I'm entiled to it.

It's about being the "complete" pilot for your team, and gaining air superiority for your team. That's why I was always so successful as a pilot, as the enemy pilots didn't stand a chance with me in the sky and thus they couldn't do all the other things that planes could do. What people fail to realize is dogfighting is the absolute core foundation of air superiority, and when that balance in regards to AA and dogfighting in general was broken, then the rest of the airplane equation (and things that they can contribute to their team) collapses.

Couldn't agree more. This is one of the main reasons that I like the changes so much. Air to air combat is now doable even without a super hot computer or 14 yearold reflexes. Before the patch, most planes didn't even bother with each other... they spent all their time spanking things on the ground. Maybe if someone feel into their sights, they'd hose 'em down with some cannon... but what would they bother chasing planes (and possibly being shot down) when they could be farming more points on the ground?

Now there's a real insentive for them to be focused much more on what's happening in the air. A fighter's points are in the air now. Bombers have to be careful or they'll get waxed. Choppers rely on good air cover, or they're gonna get spanked too. At the same time, the airforce is much more reliant on their team's groundpounders. Clearing AA is a much more important role for 'em... and since there's lots more people manning AA, it's a good point source.

These are the elements that I thought were missing before. I'm much happier to see them coming into play now. Thus, I more than .

As mentioned, there's room to improve. I'm just tired of the argument that it took so much more skill to fly in 1.12, when that is entierly counter to my own experiances.

[tjmhay]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Understand that when you make claims about being the ultimate athority on all things BF2 while obviously being biased towards aircraft use (Your name is Planewhore, FFS! :p) that tends to set some people on edge.

Tone it down and you'd get better results. This post is a good example.

-snip-
That's my opinion and I'm entiled to it.

I really can't understand where a lot of this comes from. "ultimate athority on all things BF2 " What? Where did that even come from. All he's been addressing is the piloting aspect of the patch.

I would say that's far more indicative of your posts. A certain pilot tactics thread comes to mind - yes the one where the topic starter had less than 3 hours air time (probably a similar amount non-ranked) but was still determined to prove to all the other veteran pilots that they simply needed to "adapt" - totally negating all the other elements to the argument.

That aside, this is all about experience. People who used planes frequently LIKED dogfighting with cannons. The ground AA isn't the problem, it's the fire blindly get a kill issue that's in the spotlight.

Your arguement is based on the assumption that we want to return to 1.12. That isn't the case. The ground AA is actually GOOD now. It's the fact that it's too easy to get air to air kills that really puts a dampner on the piloting.

[WarGimp]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

I really can't understand where a lot of this comes from. "ultimate athority on all things BF2 " What? Where did that even come from. All he's been addressing is the piloting aspect of the patch.

Before you go off a'callin pots black, ya might wanna make sure you aren't backing a kettle.

http://www.totalbf2.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57017&highlight=planewhore

Shame on you dice for being so ignorant, and shame on me for being so damn good.

Are you really going to say that that statment wasn't an amazingly arrogant and ignorant thing to say?
I seriously hope PW looks back at that and grimices. Seems to me that it was posted in the heat of ill thought out anger. If not... well... I'll avoid a "presonal attack" and just let you use your imagination. You seem to like putting things in my mouth anyway.
(oh man... that could be taken outta context with amusing results!)

I would say that's far more indicative of your posts. A certain pilot tactics thread comes to mind - yes the one where the topic starter had less than 3 hours air time (probably a similar amount non-ranked) but was still determined to prove to all the other veteran pilots that they simply needed to "adapt" - totally negating all the other elements to the argument.

And this isn't a personal attack?

Yes, I started a thread ( http://www.totalbf2.com/forums/showt...ighlight=adapt ) to help some pilots adapt to the new system. I still believe what I wrote and had many people thank me outright for posting the information. Unfortunatly, some people felt compelled to come in and attempt to discredit me via my (fully admited) crap stats or just to whine without adding anything. Chris did an excelent job of debating all the way through. He didn't agree with my opinions, but continued to discuss the subject rationally.

That aside, this is all about experience. People who used planes frequently LIKED dogfighting with cannons. The ground AA isn't the problem, it's the fire blindly get a kill issue that's in the spotlight.

This is not how PW started his argument. Refer back to that post I linked above, thanks.

Your arguement is based on the assumption that we want to return to 1.12. That isn't the case. The ground AA is actually GOOD now. It's the fact that it's too easy to get air to air kills that really puts a dampner on the piloting.

Again, yes PW did imply that 1.12 was better than 1.2. I do not agree. Thus, I say so.

I do feel that the air to air is better in 1.2 as well. That's my opinion and it's apparently shared by Dice. I didn't say perfect... or even right, but it is better.

I like the fact that flares only give you 3 seconds of "safty" (if that, since it seems that you still have a 1 in 7 chance of the missile retaining it's lock). That's 3 seconds to do something. Break 'n shake. NOW! I like that thrill and have managed to scrape people off my tail successfully by using these real world tactics.

I make no claim of being a great pilot, so it mystifies me some that many people who I do consiter to be great pilots can't do the same thing.

No, it doesn't work all the time and I'm not gonna sit here and stroke my ego. Half the time I die in a plane is still due to doing stupid things and meeting the ground with a sudden stop. (mental note, STOP trying to do Split Ses below 100 feet!!).

I ment it honestly when I challenged PW to give it a shot. It could be something very much worth seeing.

[The Soup Nazi]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Tonight I was flying on Gulf of Oman as USMC in an F35B. I was chasing an enemy SU-34 for awhile and had steady lock. I waited for his flares and then fired three shots as his jet completely leveled out. (And no, I was not right up on him at the time) But, (I'm thinking because his airspeed was so slow) the missiles chased him and then reaquired another target that was nowhere in my sights. Thinking this must be some sort of glitch, I kept up the pusuit. I adjusted my airspeed to match his and fired off another 3 missiles at him after he had made a soft bank and was leveling off again. Those three missed him as well and hit a friendly blackhawk.

I'm really starting to wonder that if the throttle is low enough, you're a harder target to hit for AA. It seems like the harder you try to get away from AA, the more accurate they are. The reduced heat from the engine while travelling slowly may actually aide in surviving AA. Unfortunately, for this SU-34 pilot, I finished him off with my cannon seconds later.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Wargimp likes when all youve got is a mix of flares, hard pull evasions and a little luck.
Me, as many others love the prolongued fights where the best man wins and the win is clearly aknowledged.
This is an argument of opinions and should NOT be brough or taken off the boundaries of this thread or youll all start hunting each others throats from thread to thread, LOL.

Personally I liked the last post fro Wargimps part, although lacked in counterarguments, was pleasant for the eye.

I believe PW is one of the best, I also believe I could have been able to effectively stop his 70-0 runs if I was on the same server. I believe Im good. If I say so, theres ultimately NOTHING wrong with it until you start comparing yourself to others, or patronize. He did neither of these things.

He didnt jump off in a fashion of "Wargimp you n00b, I own your ass any day of the week.". He just said that he was one of the best. Nothing wrong with that. Now, instead of being cool and try to kick his nuts, challenge him.

[vbl]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

I don't expect every one to agree with me, but I do expect those who disagree with me and think everything with the current state of the game is perfect to provide a little more solid evidence to indicate that they are correct and that I am somehow misguided.

I'm honest when I say dogfighting is no longer fun for me, but it's about more than just dogfighting. It's about being the "complete" pilot for your team, and gaining air superiority for your team. That's why I was always so successful as a pilot, as the enemy pilots didn't stand a chance with me in the sky and thus they couldn't do all the other things that planes could do. What people fail to realize is dogfighting is the absolute core foundation of air superiority, and when that balance in regards to AA and dogfighting in general was broken, then the rest of the airplane equation (and things that they can contribute to their team) collapses.

Can you evade missiles fired at you on lock?

(Just assume you have a J-10)

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Tonight I was flying on Gulf of Oman as USMC in an F35B. I was chasing an enemy SU-34 for awhile and had steady lock. I waited for his flares and then fired three shots as his jet completely leveled out. (And no, I was not right up on him at the time) But, (I'm thinking because his airspeed was so slow) the missiles chased him and then reaquired another target that was nowhere in my sights. Thinking this must be some sort of glitch, I kept up the pusuit. I adjusted my airspeed to match his and fired off another 3 missiles at him after he had made a soft bank and was leveling off again. Those three missed him as well and hit a friendly blackhawk.

I'm really starting to wonder that if the throttle is low enough, you're a harder target to hit for AA. It seems like the harder you try to get away from AA, the more accurate they are. The reduced heat from the engine while travelling slowly may actually aide in surviving AA. Unfortunately, for this SU-34 pilot, I finished him off with my cannon seconds later.

Wow.
Id like some people to test this out. Also. Check if you can outrun a missile. Ive mentioned before that there is no speed limit in 100% vertically upwards movement.

[tcp1]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

I had a similar experience on Oman of the ATA missiles absolutely missing. Straight level shot with lock, I was actually suprised. It then happened again on Kubra Dam, both times against the bomber. I wonder if there is something going on there.

[The Soup Nazi]

Re: Highway to the Boredom Zone, a pilots perspective on the 1.2 patch

Yeah. Had me wondering. But he did it multiple times after I shot him down, as well. I even got a chance to sit in the copilot seat with this same guy and he would just fly with the throttle at about 10%. Any slower and we'd have to get out and push. But missiles would just whizz by us even under missile lock. He'd drop flares, but that didn't seem to make a bit of difference. The only way to really take him down was with MG fire.

And, from personal experience, the harder I try to either outrun or out-manuever AA, the more likely I get hit. Think about it... What's one of the first things you do when you're under lock? You hit the afterburners out of habit while trying to break lock. But the added thrust produces more heat and helps the AA seek you out.

I wish I could get a look at the source code behind EA/Dice's missile algorithms. I'd be willing to bet just about anything that that's how they operate.