A Response to the Whiners and Complainers

[whofriggincares]

Re: A Response to the Whiners and Complainers

I agree that if they make it so even the first time players can take out a skillful jet pilot then that is just plain crazy and stupid. This game takes skill and there is a learning curve to everything. The best players stand out, just like in every game. If you want everything to be so equal so that everyone has the same chance, then you every single weapon must produce the same amount of damage and every vehicle/armor must have the same amount of protection. Too bad everything isn't suppose to be equal. This is a game where you must learn to how to use every single piece of weapon to your advantage or you'll probably be killed. Just because you (to no one in particular) can't get better or won't work in/with a squad to complete your objective, don't make it easier for me to die just becuase of that. I've practiced too much to be taken out easily just because you can't figure out how to stop me.

[Sir. Shpox]

Re: A Response to the Whiners and Complainers

Don't like game, don't play it. Nough said.

[puglous]

Re: A Response to the Whiners and Complainers

You didn't read my post. I said, "I don't have a problem with people who are offering constructive criticism, but most are just whining hoping to get validation from all the other whiners." I enjoy reading other people's ideas on how to improve the game. I am sure Dice reads those message as opposed to all of the "I hate this game becasue of _____ (fill in the blank). I will stop playing this game because of ______(fill in the blank). This game sucks because of _____(fill in the blank).

I didn't start the thread to change peoples mind. I acknowledged that most people already have their minds made up. I stated that the whiners represented the minority of players. Unfortunately, they are the most vocal. Problems with no solutions are a waste of time. I suggested that there were alternative ways to approach the issue.

Dice didn't say they were taking the skill out of the game did they? Are you implying that a noob pilot or ground troup should be able to take a skilled pilot just because they pointed an AA at a plane? Planes and choppers wouldn't have any purpose if that were true. The rock to a plane (scissors) is not the AA, it is an equally or better skilled pilot. I think you grossly generalized what they said. This isn't about luck and random chance as you seem to imply. Rock, paper, scissor suggests balance. Even if you can't counter a good pilot, you have alternatives that still allow you to have fun and your team to win.

Who said the imperative is to take the jet down. But yes, I have taken down plane whores that have racked up huge scores by flying a fighter. Sending planes to harass are enough to distract a good pilot so he doesn't have a free pass to wipe out your team. Sometimes, you have to accept that a pilot is going to get a good score, but that doesn't mean you give up or stop having fun. As I said, you have to find another way. Planes can't cap flags or create a ticket drain enough to win on their own.

Learning how to fly on live servers isn't what I suggested. Practice on the single player game until you stop crashing and understand how to shoot down a jet. Then use those skills against real people. Most everyone has had to learn how to fly these planes.

Are you telling me 2 jets can be everywhere on a map? You can't come up with alternative strategies to deal with a pilot? If you want to play the same pattern and strategy whenever you play, I can see how you would be frustrated if that was disrupted by a skilled pilot. Then again, why wouldn't skilled infantry, squads or armor cause you to not have fun.

I am not opposed to change at all. I think they have done a good job of providing a balanced game with all of the changes they have made and plan to make. However, every problem with the game does not have to be catastrophic or result in new code. They have provided a platform (not perfect) that allows you to be creative in figuring out how to find multiple ways of approaching a problem.


I will start the dialog by offer some suggestions to deal with good pilots:

Note, getting killed by a bomber or even a fighter is inevitable if you are in a vehicle of any kind. There is no hiding from a good pilot. You usually can't see or hear them coming. You get no warning tones. Your only chance is that they miss.

Here are some ideas to minimize the effects of a good plane pilot:

1. Spread out when traveling or capping - This is especially important at the beginning of a round. Nothing gets them salivating more than when they see 3 or 4 vehicles clustered together traveling to or capping a flag. You can get to the same flag with different routes. If you are taking the same route, put some space between you and the vehicle in front. Losing 1 vehicle in a convoy is better than all.

2. Try not to load up vehicles with more than 1 person. If there are enough, 1 person per vehicle is safer - If you load a Jeep or an APC with 3-4 people, they just hit the jackpot. 1 target, 4 kills. Also, a tank with a gunner is almost always a 2 for 1 target. Even if they miss the tank, the gunner is taken out via splash damage. Never have 2 in a mobile AA, it's a complete waste.

3. Don't sit in AA stinger sites- They can take you out with the guns or a bomb. They can also see you before you see them since they get a lock tone or they can look on the map to see the AA is occupied. Regardless, you aren't going to shoot them down with a stinger. Stingers are ok for choppers. If you insist on using the stinger only get in the stinger just before you shoot.

4. Don't sit in your vehicles when capping a flag. Again, they salivate when they see or hear that a flag is turning. It's the feeding signal that there is easy prey ready to be killed .They can see vehicles on the HUD, but can't see foot soldiers. If there are no targets (i.e. only foot soldiers), they don't know where to bomb and they probably just drop on the flag. If you need armor defense while capping the flag, MOVE the armor away from the flag area so the flag cappers don't get taken out when the armor gets bombed. If you are a foot soldier, find areas that are sheltered or as far away from the flag as possible.

5. Keep moving if you are in a vehicle- If you sit, they will find you.

6. Watch the kill notifications to figure out what is happening. If the bomber just killed somebody (F15 or SU30), chances are you have a little time (20-30 seconds) before the bomber might show up in your area.

7. Don't get frustrated, getting bombed is inevitable if you are in a vehicle. If you get frustrated, you won't be able to play your game effectively and probably won't stick to the strategy or teamwork.

Okay, sorry. I read what you said but I got confused when you started talking about "countering 'imbalances' with skill" instead of whining. If you refered to something like calling bunny hoppers and jet whores cheap and skilless because they kill you a lot, I would have taken your post a lot differently

I'm a bit confused by your rock, paper, scissors argument. For example, it takes a lot more skill for a tank to take down a jet than a jet to do a quick swoop and unleash its unstoppable storm of death. So there should be something can kill a jet with less skill than the jet requires to kill IT.

Who said the imperative is to take the jet down. But yes, I have taken down plane whores that have racked up huge scores by flying a fighter. Sending planes to harass are enough to distract a good pilot so he doesn't have a free pass to wipe out your team. Sometimes, you have to accept that a pilot is going to get a good score, but that doesn't mean you give up or stop having fun. As I said, you have to find another way. Planes can't cap flags or create a ticket drain enough to win on their own.

Yes, a plane can "counter" another plane. But that is not a counter like a jet counters a tank. It's an even match between two jets. The thing is, if a tank kills you, you can always switch to AT. On the other hand, jets need to spawn before a counter-pilot can take them. Yes, you do need to stop having fun because you can no longer use strategy when the enemy has a good jet pilot. No matter where you are, that jet can bomb you. It's too mobile to avoid, and too fast to evade with those primitive devices the ancients call "tanks" and "feet". Good pilots usually have the highest win/loss ratio (last time I checked I seem to get this vibe), so yes, they alone can lead their team to victory, even if everyone they have on the ground couldn't hit a barn from 2 feet away with a sniper rifle. A good tank though, can be avoided by a good foot soldier. That's why only aircraft can truly ruin a game.

You're suggestions are great, I'm not so sure they'd all work, so I'll have to think about them a bit. Yeah, being on foot can help, however, a bomber pilot has the capability blow up every possible spawn point in a base with a quick swoop. I mean, 5 freakin bombs. And unlike artillery, it comes down at an angle, so they can easily bomb you through a window.

In SF, this isn't an issue because 1) there are no jets 2) there's real cover from vehicles. Where even the most practiced pilot couldn't get you.

[Older-OMO]

Re: A Response to the Whiners and Complainers

A jet is one of many counters to a tank. AT, C4, TOW missiles, mines, choppers, sharp objects, rough terrain can counter tanks. This doesn't prevent a skilled tank whore from plane-like K/Dratios. As I have said, shooting a jet down shouldn't be the end all answer for fixing the complaint, nor should it be the only way Dice creates balance. I do agree that armor should be reduced so other planes can effectively kill jets with their guns (in next patch). I don't care if they tweak the AA (in next patch). Personally, I don't think there is anything they can do with the AA that will take a skilled pilot down without nerfing all air assets.

You mention that there are usually 2 planes. How many pieces of armor are there. Yes they may have 3 on the start on some 64 player maps, but how many times have you seen sides end up with 6 or more because of stealing or capturing flags. A good fleet of armor (throw in some engineers as drivers) can totally decimate the other side that includes a good pilot.

It can be easy to steal planes, but if they die, they have to go back to an enemies base to get it again (or it doesn't spawn like Wake, Kubra or Dragon Valley). If the other team has more than 2 in the air, then your team was not paying attention. Keep that in mind at the start of round when some good pilots take the fighter to transport them to the enemy bomber. Someone should be trying to defend.

I think air power was put into to the game to help mirror the realities on a real battlefield. What is the most effective counter to planes in the real world? How many modern planes do you think have been taken out in the real world by AA on the ground? How many jets have taken out enemy jets in dogfights? How many missions did the US and Brittish fly over the Middle East without suffering many casualties. The only counter to effective air power is other air power, even then, all pilots are flying against the most trained and skilled pilots each country has to offer.

Good pilots usually have the highest win/loss ratios because of the maps they play and the people they play with. Good pilots supporting well organized armor and foot soldiers are almost impossible to beat. But again it is the teamwork across commanders, squads, vehicles and kits.

Some of the more whorish ones will only play bomber maps (basically Oman and Clean sweep) on the side that has a few advantages. If you look at the armor whores, I am sure you would see the same type of selective map and side playing (mostly Karkand). MEC have a huge advantage on Oman because the have the bomber, MIG and an uncappable base that does not require sea or air vehicles to get to flags. MEC usually have an advantage on Clean Sweep because they have 2 airstrips (a second is out of bounds for all but the jets, but useable on the 32 player map), and it is easier to defend with good squads than to attack. Daquing is fairly even except the Chinese planes are better. Wake Island (the other map that draws plane whores) has the Chinese with the initial advantage, but that quickly falls away with teamwork. When the Chinese lose the airbase, the planes are useless.

Do I think it is perfect, no..., but they could tweak things a bit to accomodate other players.

They could probably reduce the bomb loads from 5 to 2-3, but that isn't going to stop the dominance. Just look at the guys who fly the fighters and still dominate with the 2 bomb config.

They could remove the bombs from the fighters, which would force them to shooting down other planes, choppers and anything else the guns could hit. I actually think they should do this so the fighters are focused on engaging other air assets, but it may not be as realistic. It still takes more skill for a pilot to be an effective bomber with the fighter.

They could increase the spawn time for planes, but that would only incent commanders to focus their arty on the airfields as opposed to the rest of the map(happens a lot on Wake at the chopper spawns).

They could make planes make more than one pass to reload. This is reasonable, but would delay, not eliminate the effectiveness of planes.

I keep harping on the fact that the most overlooked counter to a good pilot (s) is better teamwork on the other side. Planes get kills not flags. Flags win rounds. Planes can disrupt, but not anihilate an entire team. Squads talking to each other, commanders giving decent orders, people staying with their squads, spawning on leaders etc.

Spawning on a squad leader is a huge tactic (also a source of complaints), that is rarely used against good pilots. Someone from a squad should always stay safely away when capping flags (not just for planes but for C4, hidden enemy, mines, etc). The squad will usually spawn back quicker than the plane or the enemy commander realizes they didn't kill everyone. The pilots dominate against teams of individuals playing run to the next flag.

As I mentioned, the other thing to do is play on servers that encourage team/squad play, are well managed and have reasonable rules (like no base raping without all the flags). Join a club or clan to ensure you are in squads or playing with others that understand and execute strategy. All of the tactics I mentioned in the other post about limiting damage from planes is effective and does work with good teamwork. You are still going to die, but you probably won't end up on his favorite victims list.

[F-1]

Re: A Response to the Whiners and Complainers

Not sure why it takes you few pages to tell your point of view. I am sure no one reads such a lengthy post.

Can you tell us how to kill an exessive bunny hopper with a grenade launcher? PLEASE PLEASE TELL ME HOW! DO NOT TELL ME PRACTICE AS THIS IS A WORTHLESS ANSWER.

[Donkey]

Re: A Response to the Whiners and Complainers

Game balnce needs to go right out the window, you know why? Because the game is never going to be balnaced as long as there is a human element involved. You will never be on a level playing field there is always going to be someone better and someone worse, tis life.

You bitch about the gaming not being realisitc and then you go and bitch about how a plane should be taken out easeir by a tank...oh yeah that phuqin happens all the time...These type of comments make no sense, none what so ever. Yet people bitch and it is there right to bitch and they will never stop bitching just like the game will never be BALANCED...so anyone with there whole rock/paper/siscors thing can rock/paper/sicsors this.....

please take this post lightly Im not talking about anyone person per ser (sad I have to say that)

[AFEDslayer]

Re: A Response to the Whiners and Complainers

Suckered again, myself included (5+pages of responses to a first time poster). I don't have a problem with people who are offering constructive criticism, but most are just whining hoping to get validation from all the other whiners. You can say just about anything on a forum and get pages of people that agree with you. They never are an indication nor a representation of the silent majority.

Planes are overpowering because they are supposed to be. Choppers are overpowering because they are supposed to be. Tanks and armor are overpowering because they are supposed to be. Foot soldiers are at the bottom of the food chain. Yes as someone else alluded, there is a pecking order. However, the game is inhernently fair and balanced. Name another FPS or online game where people didn't complain about overpowered weapons, kits, vehicles, etc.

The alternative is to overcome the obstacle and fight. I was getting owned by noob tubers and bunny hoppers, I learned how to deal with them. I was getting owned by tanks, I learned how to take out tanks. Choppers were ****ing me off, I learned how to take out choppers. I was getting owned by planes, I learned how to take out planes. It takes skill to own with any kit or vehicle, but everyone has the right and the ability to improve. Nobody is invincible and there is always a counter to every attack. That is balance.

A good pilot is hard, but not impossible to take down or neutralize. If you rely on AA than you will get owned. The obvious counter is another pilot. If the pilot can't shoot him down, he can keep him occupied so he isn't taking your team out. That's called sacrificing your score for the team. It is also called balance. So what if their pilot gets a high score if your team wins through better teamwork and organization. If it gets out of hand on one server, there are hundreds more you can go to.

Good players and good teams/clans are always going to own or make the game seem unfair. Is it unfair? Absolutely if you are on the losing side, but the game wasn't created to be some hippie/socialist everbody wins killing game.

Teamwork, skills and balance win everytime. Whining about planes, choppers, noob tubers and bunny hoppers shows lack of character and will. Practice, get on a well managed server, practice, join a club/clan or practice and most of these issues can be overcome. Get on a FFA server and all bets are off.

What possible reason is there to hang out on a BF2 forum to whine and complain? Nobody is going to change your mind. You aren't going to change mine. We will problably find you whining about something else on another forum. So go and leave in peace. Nobody told you to buy the game, nobody told you to play it as long or short as you have, nobody told you to play on ranked servers.

The only people who care are the other people who want to whine with you. Exercise your right to remain silent.

/


agreed.

[Older-OMO]

Re: A Response to the Whiners and Complainers

Not sure why it takes you few pages to tell your point of view. I am sure no one reads such a lengthy post.

Can you tell us how to kill an exessive bunny hopper with a grenade launcher? PLEASE PLEASE TELL ME HOW! DO NOT TELL ME PRACTICE AS THIS IS A WORTHLESS ANSWER.

I was adding to the dialog and discussion with proposed solutions, not adding to the plentiful throwaway one-liners that fill most forums. I don't demand that people read my posts. It isn't a stat that I follow.

Kill a bunny hopper with a bomber or a tank...jump from that. You can shoot them from a distance, you could also play in different parts of maps where CQC isn't as prevalent, use a shotgun and aim at their belly in the air, throw C4, kick or ban them. Or you could just wait for the patch. See I am offering suggestions as opposed to you.

Less than a few pages.

[Sir. Shpox]

Re: A Response to the Whiners and Complainers

Game balnce needs to go right out the window, you know why? Because the game is never going to be balnaced as long as there is a human element involved. You will never be on a level playing field there is always going to be someone better and someone worse, tis life.

You bitch about the gaming not being realisitc and then you go and bitch about how a plane should be taken out easeir by a tank...oh yeah that phuqin happens all the time...These type of comments make no sense, none what so ever. Yet people bitch and it is there right to bitch and they will never stop bitching just like the game will never be BALANCED...so anyone with there whole rock/paper/siscors thing can rock/paper/sicsors this.....

please take this post lightly Im not talking about anyone person per ser (sad I have to say that)

Please give this guy a medal. Seriosuly, he's completly correct, no matter how much they try to fix elements in the game, as long as there's humans, it wont ever be fair. But then again, we're not going for perfect, just decent.

[iflabs]

Re: A Response to the Whiners and Complainers

There is no sanctuary from Planes. Once your enemy planes pin your base down and doesn't let any jet take off...well that's pretty much it.

[Shae]

Re: A Response to the Whiners and Complainers

This doesn't prevent a skilled tank whore from plane-like K/Dratios.

Hehehe...I'm a great tanker, if I do say so myself. In fact I take pride in the fact that I am better than average in a tank. With that being said, there are many ways to counter a tank and if the other side is not smart enough to take the tank out using one of many ways...then that is not my problem.

Same goes for jet jockeys. If you want to counter that jet that is bombing the beejeezes out of your side...learn how to counter it. It really isn't as hard as you may think.

That is the cool thing about this game...there is a counter for everything. Sorta like rock,paper, scissors. You must learn how to counter properly in order to succeed.

[ALLAH]

Re: A Response to the Whiners and Complainers

this n00b snipers and whiners are ruining the game. even after the patch and BF2 will become CS, there will still be people that will find a way to pwn your sorry ass and masses of n00bs will spam BF forums to fix stuff. if the game would be made with all the requests we would have automatic n00b t00bz, nukz on airplanes, white phosphor on apache, lock and kill AA's,...

it takes practice to be good
and most of good players are quiet, cos they deal with the game, not whine and excuse to change the game, just cos they think, they will be better.

you will still be able to spawn camp, rape with armor, planes, choppers,...

BF will become CS, it is just matter of time, cos masses of uncivilized CS n00bs are discovering BF now and they are furious cos sniper sux and they are getting knifed by the thousands.

the problem is not in those whiners, but in silence of all the players that can deal with the game as it is and still have fun and pwn.
they should fix old BF42 bugs, bomb bug, tag bug,....

[Razzia.be]

Re: A Response to the Whiners and Complainers

Suckered again, myself included (5+pages of responses to a first time poster). I don't have a problem with people who are offering constructive criticism, but most are just whining hoping to get validation from all the other whiners. You can say just about anything on a forum and get pages of people that agree with you. They never are an indication nor a representation of the silent majority.

Planes are overpowering because they are supposed to be. Choppers are overpowering because they are supposed to be. Tanks and armor are overpowering because they are supposed to be. Foot soldiers are at the bottom of the food chain. Yes as someone else alluded, there is a pecking order. However, the game is inhernently fair and balanced. Name another FPS or online game where people didn't complain about overpowered weapons, kits, vehicles, etc.

The alternative is to overcome the obstacle and fight. I was getting owned by noob tubers and bunny hoppers, I learned how to deal with them. I was getting owned by tanks, I learned how to take out tanks. Choppers were ****ing me off, I learned how to take out choppers. I was getting owned by planes, I learned how to take out planes. It takes skill to own with any kit or vehicle, but everyone has the right and the ability to improve. Nobody is invincible and there is always a counter to every attack. That is balance.

A good pilot is hard, but not impossible to take down or neutralize. If you rely on AA than you will get owned. The obvious counter is another pilot. If the pilot can't shoot him down, he can keep him occupied so he isn't taking your team out. That's called sacrificing your score for the team. It is also called balance. So what if their pilot gets a high score if your team wins through better teamwork and organization. If it gets out of hand on one server, there are hundreds more you can go to.

Good players and good teams/clans are always going to own or make the game seem unfair. Is it unfair? Absolutely if you are on the losing side, but the game wasn't created to be some hippie/socialist everbody wins killing game.

Teamwork, skills and balance win everytime. Whining about planes, choppers, noob tubers and bunny hoppers shows lack of character and will. Practice, get on a well managed server, practice, join a club/clan or practice and most of these issues can be overcome. Get on a FFA server and all bets are off.

What possible reason is there to hang out on a BF2 forum to whine and complain? Nobody is going to change your mind. You aren't going to change mine. We will problably find you whining about something else on another forum. So go and leave in peace. Nobody told you to buy the game, nobody told you to play it as long or short as you have, nobody told you to play on ranked servers.

The only people who care are the other people who want to whine with you. Exercise your right to remain silent.

You are absolutly right

[maranello]

Re: A Response to the Whiners and Complainers

Alot of people in tanks/jets/choppers love to kill the footmen. And will avoid meeting their equal. Its a pain in the arse when your side is getting wiped out by a tank, when a friendly one is only down the road. Yes, people need to spawn as anti-tank when base raping happens, but dont. But should you need to when you know a friendly tank is nearby?

People love the points and dont give a monkeys about their team. A shame, but not the end of the world. People will learn...untill a patch comes out to kiss it all better for them

1. If you think patch will change the fact that Planes/choppers/tanks are not overpowered and they will not own the battlefield, you are sadly mistaken.

2. Tanks or choppers or Jets were NEVER created to meet their equal. They were made to kill foot soldiers easily, kill more soldiers, make more destriction. This is war. With your logic, US was unfair to use napalm bombs in vietnam against Vietnamese foot soldiers. That's just unrealistic, and it's even very unrealistic for an arcade game.

3. There is no balance in bf2. And there was never meant to be in a way you think. Planes and every other vehicle were put there because they were meant to kill several foot soldiers. Moreover, they were put in the game to create unbalance and inequality. If they werent there, you would have CSS with larger terrain.

[maranello]

Re: A Response to the Whiners and Complainers

Yes, a plane can "counter" another plane. But that is not a counter like a jet counters a tank. It's an even match between two jets. The thing is, if a tank kills you, you can always switch to AT. On the other hand, jets need to spawn before a counter-pilot can take them.

So you are saying, if tank kills you, you can shoot back with AT, but with plane, you can't?

Well first of all, if you have $40 for a joystick, it ll take you at most 1 week to be a good dog fight pilot. Second of all, let me try to bring it down to you. If the Tanks cost 1 million dollars, F-35B costs at least 50 million dollars. You are not supposed to counter attack the jet as easily as you do to a tank. That's why they are jets, that's why being a pilot in army takes 10 years whereas you can easily become a tank driver in less than 1 year. I mean i know this game is arcade and all that, but this game is different. It's not counter strike, its not unreal tournament, it's battlefield. It's a war game. You will have unbalances, you will have inequalities, your job is to overcome them not by using counter measures, but using strategies.