Ethics & what constitutes a good game

[Ind1go]

Re: Ethics & what constitutes a good game

If your team alredy is winning why do you have the need to go into their uncappable base and shoot them as they spawn? Is it fun to be on the recieving end of baserape? Is it fun to baserape?

My anwser to the last two question is no. The point for most people in a public game is to have fun. For some that means to get points by whatever means necessary. It is a deficiency in the game that makes baseraping possible thus the "need" for rules. Most servers don't have baseraping rules so I don't see an issue. If you want to baserape because you enjoy it then join a server that allows it. Don't complain on a general BF2-forum about what some server owners decide on. If you like that particular server and want them to change the rules their forum is a better place to have this discussion.

I for one will not chime in with you and tell you how lame the admin is for prohibiting your team from baseraping. If you don't like the rules or the admin just play on another server don't create a thread about it.

Please read my posts and think before posting your own message. I have stated at least twice that I am not moaning about the admin making a rule in his server, I'm talking about the concept of "baseraping" as a whole and why people seem to think it's such a crime.

On the surface you seem to be dismissing a genuine discussion, something in short supply here, out of hand because you have nothing useful to contribute.

[Ind1go]

Re: Ethics & what constitutes a good game

A.) If its their only base, light them up with Arty. To quote the Brits "You must fight HA-der!"

B.) I agree on the no entering. Set up a perimiter around them then do a re-enactment of Custers last Stand.

C.) Commanders Command. About the only vehicle I ever take is the Dune Buggy to get me to a spawn that has ONE guy at. I race over and cap him before he can get the flag. Rideing around in APC's as a commander is fine, just don't drive and NEVER fly.

If the other team gets pushed back and still can't get it together to fight as a TEAM they deserved to be crushed. Just ignore the complaints and get it over quickly.

Thanks for actually answering the questions, unlike others

a) I agree that there is no problem artying anywhere.
b) "No entering" I don't agree with. I can't see the difference between fighting people near their spawn points (though not ON their spawn points) and fighting people from your circle of tanks 200m away. Also, how do you judge when your "spawn-encircling ring" is far enough away to be fair?

IMO you can't. You have an ethical rule that can't be consistently enforced so it invalidates the rule itself. By far a better situation is to fix the problem of known spawn points via a patch so spawn camping is eliminated, and get out of the mindset that attacking the enemy is bad when they have only one flag left.

c) I agree, but I think a commander's role is bigger than simply sticking his face in the tactical map.

Good replies, even though we don't agree on them all

[big_sammy_b]

Re: Ethics & what constitutes a good game

i really don't think its possible for a commander to be in a veihicle or fight as infantry and command at the same time, when i first started commanding i tohught maybe i just needed practise but no.

You simply can't do it its impossible, if your fighting then your neglecting your commanding duties and if your commanding your going to get shot or the veihicle your in is being wasted.

In my experience id say that 99% of commanders who don't go and hide somewhere to command actually have no interest in actually commanding there just commander so they can double there points at the end (stat padding)

[Ind1go]

Re: Ethics & what constitutes a good game

In my experience id say that 99% of commanders who don't go and hide somewhere to command actually have no interest in actually commanding there just commander so they can double there points at the end (stat padding)

Given the commanders points are based on his team I don't think that's a reliable way of stat padding, and not really a factor. Especially since you need to WIN to get x2 score.

People who say it's impossible are wrong. I can do it. I've seen others do it. I'm not saying "I'm the best", just that it works under most circumstances.

True, on a 64plyr Karkand map it probably doesn't, but simply sticking your head in the sand and saying "COMMANDERS MUST COMMAND!" is only fooling yourself.

I like my stats. I'm not a padder, but I like seeing how I improve over time. If I found commanding and fighting didn't work to help me & the team I wouldn't do it.

[big_sammy_b]

Re: Ethics & what constitutes a good game

how can you though?

Are you saying that EVERY time the UAV, arty, supplies etc fill up you redploy them? despite the fact your trying to fight at the same time?

Are you saying that you don't just quickly flick to the map screen deploy everything then flick back and continue?

Do me a favour....

[Ind1go]

Re: Ethics & what constitutes a good game

how can you though?

Are you saying that EVERY time the UAV, arty, supplies etc fill up you redploy them? despite the fact your trying to fight at the same time?

Of course not. Simply using the assets because they are full is poor commanding. Scanning shows where enemies are concentrated then where your troops are, in what numbers, doing what is then considered. A tank in the open surrounded by 4 soldiers is probably in less need for a UAV than a squad attacking a CP with 4 or 5 enemy soldiers around. Bad commanders throw UAVs where there are simply lots of their own troops.

Are you saying that you don't just quickly flick to the map screen deploy everything then flick back and continue?

Do me a favour....

The only time I do that is when I see someone attacking a CP near me. Then I make a judgement call about what is needed where, drop it then go attack the nearby enemy.

Interesting questions though.

Anyway, new question.


In what way is attacking the uncappable spawn any different to attacking another spawn?


I say it isn't, yet no-one ever says "don't ever attack the last CAPPABLE spawn".

If you are attacking the last cappable spawn you are doing so to take the CP and kill the enemy. That's how you win.
If you are attacking an uncappable spawn that's because the only way to win at this stage is to kill the enemy. Killing the enemy in their base (after they have spawned and can fight back) is no different to killing them by forming a ring 200m around their base and shelling them with armour.

[big_sammy_b]

Re: Ethics & what constitutes a good game

in terms of that i dont really think its much fun to rape a uncappable spawn.

Id much rather play defensively and wait in the nearest base to theirs for them too attack

Defendings really good fun espeically in that situation because you can end up with a situation where you have the whole of the losing team attacking with the whole of your team defneding trying to keep them stuck at there uncappable base.

Raping their spawn ruins the game IMO.

[triumph]

Re: Ethics & what constitutes a good game

I feel that commanders should be commanding and/or guarding a flag if they don't need to watch over the UAV, Arty, etc. Than i am all for letting them for example move up from the gas station of karkand to a barely defended hotel with some C4 to defend the flag raidus in a smart manner to slow down a cap or stop it fully. But taking armor i see as a poor choice most of the time because idealy the commander should tell an SL that the armor spawned and have a squad member come and pick it up while the commander is passing on more and more info if posible. Maybe the commander can be a bench warmer for an APC or Tank so it won't be stolen but outside of that i don't find the commander not commanding the greatest of ideas.

As for spawn killing, yes it's very annoying for a situation like The map switched and the other team had 90percent of its people come into the server while this team only has 5 guys who spawned and now the whole map is freaking taken over by a quick rush on a server with barely or no round delay at all, in that situation i would show some compeitive compashion and give them a chance to take a flag or two for the sake of keeping the game going if some one isn't willing to restart the round. GG FTW or FTL TBH! As for a situation where a team is just getting destroyed because of stupidity or whatever i say let it happen to them. A bleed should be on them and they simply should die out and try to play better next round and if the assaulting team is that stupid two or 3 flags in the back will open up for spawning and a come back.

[imported_Brother Justice]

Re: Ethics & what constitutes a good game

well your point on C is plain wrong, you may be able to do SOME UAV and SOME Scans, but i bet that if you are my commander i would be waiting a while for supplies and stuff while you are "containing a breakthrough". really if you are driving a vehicle then you are not in commander mode, its as simple as that. if you are not in commander mode all the time then you miss stuff and you team will suffer. Maybe im missing something are you some how able to use the command mode/screen and still negotiate your armor around the streets? i would love to know what split screen that you have that i dont have avalible.

I can understand a commander fighting for his assets in the back if no other defence, but how in the world can you protect assets if you are behind the front lines. I played a game the other night as commander, the other teams commander was fighting as you say to support the line, well there was constant complaining from the other team and their commander was countering with the same reasonings that you are saying, but the result of this was my army whooped the enemy at like 127 tickets to 0, and i got over 90 command points (after x2) the other commander hehe.... 14 points total. nuf said

[Noggin]

Re: Ethics & what constitutes a good game

double post

[Noggin]

Re: Ethics & what constitutes a good game

"BaseRaping" ... I say play the game as it stands, no holds-barred. DoD had a "safe zone" in the spawn area. If the enemy would enter that zone they would die by the game. If BF2 wanted something like this, they should include it. I hate spawning only to die as much as the next guy, but it is what it is. If I don't like it, there are several options, a)get your own server with your own rules or b)find another server that has rules more to your liking.

Commanding - If I do a scan and see enemy approaching my main base, I'm finding a vehicle to try to take them out and/or protect my ass'ets. Sitting in a vehicle, flying, etc, are not helping my team one wit and in most cases, is frowned upon. If you're not helping your team, you ARE hurting it. Be it using up a vehicle for no reason than saving my own skin, charging in lonewolf style using up tickets, tk'ing, not squading up, whatever...if you're not contributing positively to the team effort, you are being a hindrence. There is no middle ground.

Switching teams cause they suck - I'll only switch teams if autobalance is not on and we have a numbers advantage. We all have a spot of bad days now-and-again. Today just might be your day.

[7zerO3]

Re: Ethics & what constitutes a good game

[QUOTE=Ind1go]

In what way is attacking the uncappable spawn any different to attacking another spawn?

err... the fact that they have no choice of spawning elsewhere ?

"I'm not simply sitting around stationary in an APC all time - when I'm not commanding I'm blowing people up."
And while you're "blowing people up" you're not paying attention to the rest of the game, which is what good Commanders do.
When you're not Commanding ?
The only time to be not Commanding is when you're not a Commander.

And "Thanks for actually answering the questions, unlike others"
From what I can see everyones answered your questions, just not in the way that you would like.

[glaucoma]

Re: Ethics & what constitutes a good game

b) Not allowed to enter spawn. The admins also banned our team from entering the spawn under the "no baserape" excuse. Although I agree with the idea of holding back, I don't agree with the reason. Firstly, entering the base leaves armour MUCH more susceptible to attack from all sides so it is safer to adopt a vantage position from afar and let them come to you in dribs and drabs. But again, giving the opposing team an artificial "chance" takes enjoyment away from both sides. It's not a game then, not a competition. It's a farce. However, note the distinction between "attacking an enemy base" and "spawn camping". Attacking a base gives people a fighting chance. Spawn camping inhibits the enemy from spawning altogether.

Dunno, entering an enemy base, deploying mines/claymores and/or making off with their chopper is one of the few fun things left to do, looking at the average playerbase's will to put up some teamwork.
I have no qualms with main base infiltration at all, especially looking how it's easy to wipe out "baserapers" if you actually use the assets given to you.

When a commander occupies a vehicle other than a boat or car, I'll immediately mutiny him because he's either not using it and therefore taking away team resources, or he's not commanding to the fullest and thereby a very worthless commander. Decide what you want to do, but don't do both at the same time.

Equally, I have no qualms with bombing/arty-shelling them to **** in their main when it's their last spawn left. It's you job to win a *battle*, not to play Barbies Loving Fun Ponyhouse. Choking them / costing them massive tickets by shelling their last base is exactly the right thing to do.

[7zerO3]

Re: Ethics & what constitutes a good game

"Quote glaucoma" - "especially looking how it's easy to wipe out "baserapers" if you actually use the assets given to you."

How do you wipe out "baserapers", when your base, according to you has mines/claymores, infantry, enemy that have taken off with your choppers and you have artillary incomming ?

You have no assets to take the baserapers out with, and will be killed as you spawn giving you no time to get to these assets that are'nt there.

[LaGrenouille]

Re: Ethics & what constitutes a good game

BF2 is a game, it's meant to be fun, and EVERY player should have fun playing it. Getting wasted two seconds after you spawn without you being able to do anything is NOT fun. Sometimes I feel like the people around me are playing a mmorpg. What's the big freakin difference between having 20 or 100 points?? Are you going to write it on your resume, or brag about it when you're at the pub with a date??

No offence there, but I think your views on the matter like "Uncappables should be raped, we were better, we deserve some free points" are actually quite selfish.
Auto-Balance isn't perfect, it sometimes doesn't work and it doesn't even the skill of the teams.
If we're dominating, I'll often switch to the other side. When we're getting owned, I ask if a few people want to switch teams (if it can be done), although I usually get a OMG stop whinig u fcking NOOB go play CS!!1!
I hate spawn campers with a passion, and I'll put all my energy into finding and killing them before the end of the round.
So please don't do it, think of the other team.
That's it for A) and B)

As for C) I think the commander should focus on commandeering. I never play as commander but believe me, an APC is far easier to spot and to dodge than a guy laying prone under a flight of case (and it's also much more tempting to blow it up)