More crow on the menu for GL users...

[vbl]

From the latest Armando interview:

...
Everyone working on the patch was involved in the creation of Special Forces. We saw first hand what can be done with the grenade launchers (although we focused more on the GP-30). As you can imagine, if there is an exploit, the guys in the office will migrate to it. Before long, everyone was using grenade launchers exclusively during combat situations. The game is much less entertaining on the whole when this occurs.

The grenade launcher was designed to give the assault soldier increased ability to fight against vehicles; however it is ever increasingly being used against infantry. We didn’t want to lose this ability, but it is necessary to limit its usefulness against the infantry.
...

I added the emphasis. There are two things worth noting here:
1) They discovered the imbalance internally (or so they claim), so any changes aren't exclusively the result of "whining"
2) They never intended for the GL to be regularly used against infantry

This is one reason why Sirlin's article about "Playing to Win" is bullsh1t - designers are fallible and games are not perfect straight out of the box. Some of us recognized that DICE probably didn't mean for every infantry battle to degrade into a GL vs GL fight, and in turn posted to make the issue known to a dev team that didn't appear to realize the problem.

The rest of you couldn't fathom the idea of thinking critically and were more content to call people names, all while happily taking part in a behavior that was quickly reducing most CQC battles to a single dimension of gameplay.

99% of my motivation for posting this is to demonstrate that not all criticism is whining, and not all complaints are without merit. Hopefully, next time someone posts a complaint, you consider the issue at hand and its complexities before spouting off with something inflammatory or rude.

The remaining 1% is just a "We told ya so".

[jdrou]

Re: More crow on the menu for GL users...

I think that, as you suggest, some people use whatever is available to win and others prefer to play with other goals. In theory, the "play to win" group shouldn't care about this change one way or the other. As long as everyone has the same tools/exploits available they'll just adjust to the new game. The problem is that that group doesn't seem to understand that there is another way to play which is equally valid so they just think the other group is less skilled. (I say "in theory" because in fact I think many of them like the fact that they can out-play people who aren't willing to use the same exploits so they will try to keep those exploits in the game.)

[Talus]

Re: More crow on the menu for GL users...

OO...a GL nerf would certainly be a sweet addition to the next patch

[Paas]

Re: More crow on the menu for GL users...

Wait. The ONLY vehicle you can really takeout with an M203 are the cars.

So, EA is telling us they wanted to give us the ability to take out small cars? I don't understand how that really benefits assault when facing small vehicles you can just shoot the people inside with your rifle?

What's Assaults purpose then?! When not just give SpecOp the M203a1 and get rid of assault all together. I'm all for this and I might actually play SpecOp once or twice if they do.

At this point, I'm kinda' lost as to what the purpose of assault ever was. Spec-Ops is more accurate, Medic can Heal, Support has alot more ammo and is equally as accurate (Having to go prone isn't a limiting factor because you drop down almost instantly). Engineer has a shotgun, AT has a Shotgun and a SniperRocket. ...snipers have Sniper Rifles. That would leave assault at an almost complete disadvantge in terms of CQB vs. everything BUT the sniper. Which, he would be on par with because the pistol has almost no deviation.

Not getting what would make assault worth a damn if the M203 was tailored for Anti-Vehicle use only?

{WP}Paas

[xMETNINJAx]

Re: More crow on the menu for GL users...

The assault is a one man army. GL, S2000, armor, flashbangs, smoke... It's a good class. In fact, in firefights I fear them the most since they take quite a few shots before they go down. Their specialty is killing you, and trust me, it's much easier for them to kill you then you to kill them.

[imported_The 13th Raptor]

Re: More crow on the menu for GL users...

Wait. The ONLY vehicle you can really takeout with an M203 are the cars.

So, EA is telling us they wanted to give us the ability to take out small cars? I don't understand how that really benefits assault when facing small vehicles you can just shoot the people inside with your rifle?

What's Assaults purpose then?! When not just give SpecOp the M203a1 and get rid of assault all together. I'm all for this and I might actually play SpecOp once or twice if they do.

At this point, I'm kinda' lost as to what the purpose of assault ever was. Spec-Ops is more accurate, Medic can Heal, Support has alot more ammo and is equally as accurate (Having to go prone isn't a limiting factor because you drop down almost instantly). Engineer has a shotgun, AT has a Shotgun and a SniperRocket. ...snipers have Sniper Rifles. That would leave assault at an almost complete disadvantge in terms of CQB vs. everything BUT the sniper. Which, he would be on par with because the pistol has almost no deviation.

Not getting what would make assault worth a damn if the M203 was tailored for Anti-Vehicle use only?

{WP}Paas

They got armor, and the ability to kill vodniks and hummers at long range is pretty usefull.. Those things can be a bitch.

[vbl]

Re: More crow on the menu for GL users...

I think that, as you suggest, some people use whatever is available to win and others prefer to play with other goals. In theory, the "play to win" group shouldn't care about this change one way or the other. As long as everyone has the same tools/exploits available they'll just adjust to the new game. The problem is that that group doesn't seem to understand that there is another way to play which is equally valid so they just think the other group is less skilled. (I say "in theory" because in fact I think many of them like the fact that they can out-play people who aren't willing to use the same exploits so they will try to keep those exploits in the game.)

Sirlin's articles assume that the game's design is sound - every tactic has a workable counter, even if the counter is hard to find or execute. But the bottom line is that the GL at close range is without counter. It's a one shot kill that require only partial hits to be lethal. The designer's acknowledged this, to the point of patching it - and that's a pretty damning anti-endorsement.

The other problem with his articles is that his theories apply to 1v1 combat where the player is the only one that needs to adjust in order to win. In BF2, dealing with certain tactics must be a team effort, and getting the team to play along (especially on pubs) is an obnoxious prerequisite to defeating a certain tactic.

If it takes a tight-knit clan to beat a certain tactic, fine, but keep that tactic in competitive play. Those of us who play on pubs shouldn't have to deal with it - because often, we can't.

If such a tactic existed in Street Fighter (and was as easy to access as the GL is for all players) he'd be crying like a puppy, or more likely, not even playing.

[imported_Wasp]

Re: More crow on the menu for GL users...

You give the player 2 meter jump height, equip him with an explosive
projectile that can kill point blank with little damage to the shooter and say
it's really meant for vehicles.. I'm sorry but the lack of foresight here is
mindboggling. This was already a big problem in BFV on maps like Ho Chi Minh
trail.

Atleast the grenade launchers there had bigger splash damage so you would
kill yourself when you shot point blank. But ofcourse server admins turned FF
off and you could blow up everything around you without taking damage. If
they wanted assault to have some special ability why not think of something
else then the stupid GL.

Even if they stop the ability to fire when you are in a jump you can still fire
the GL a very short distance in front of you while standing still and not die.

[Thirdeyez]

Re: More crow on the menu for GL users...

I tend to switch to nade laucher to nade back a nade whore, and today I came out of an alley and saw a car with a gun in the gunner seat, bang all the people in the car dead...now the onyl other class that could pull that off at a distance would be AT. If I was my fave support, I might have taken just the guy in the turret out, but it would have been luck and I still woudl have had to deal with the passengers, or getting ran over.
I cant even count the times Ive been blasted out of a BH, Car, turret etc.. from a nade laucher as I drove by.

I think its a cheap weapon, any moron can do it, and most do. How many times has a toober insta killed you as you actually aimed and try to evade bullets, not a massive AOE one shot. I mean do you toobers aproach a white flag knowing your gonna bunny insta kill, bunny bunny reload..or do you actaully use stratedgy?

Any toob that hits me from a distance or when Im in a vehicle, I give my props for actaully aiming that thing and showing skill...all you exploiters I cant wait to they nerf your asses back to having to use bullets.
I only have about 10.5k kills, and 190ish of those are nade laucher, I dont understand the hard on people get over exploiting there own incompetence.

[WarGimp]

Re: More crow on the menu for GL users...

I have downed 2 attack choppers with my GL. Both times I was no doubt just as shocked at the chopper crew, tho.

[Sir. Xan]

Re: More crow on the menu for GL users...

I use the GL exclusively to destroy humvees\vodniks anyway (those pesky ones that sit near a spawnpoint and rack up kills with the MG). I once tried taking down an attack chopper with the GL though, and the result got me killed (because I almost fell off my chair laughing) - I did not harm the helicopter much, but I... killed the gunner (one shot from the GL).

[imported_Apostle]

Re: More crow on the menu for GL users...

I am beginning to think that just getting rid of the GL is the best option here. No one is going to be entirely happy with the changes, in the pro or anti camp. I don't think this fix will stop the noob-tubers from spoiling the game, they are still overpowered weapons. But, the real issue here, I think, is when there is a whole team of Assualt and Spec ops. Then it becomes very frustrating, especially when you try to play the game as it is meant to be played, wait, no forget I saiid that! I am not going to debate this, but if your play a "teamplay" class, you are at a disadvantage against Assualt, ridiculously so.

[Paas]

Re: More crow on the menu for GL users...

I rarely use the GL against vehicles. Usually, I just shoot the Gunner and most of the passengers with my rifle (The Driver really doesn't mean much to me, and he usually finds himself in a very rough position without the .50's support).

I find the GL most effective at ranges between 25-100m when I know I'm outclassed by most other rifles in the game. It's futile to attempt to just "Fire Back" because my deviation per shot is so insane. So, I put one GL into the fray and walk away unharmed.

I truely think the GL abuse is more a problem of hopping than anything else. If you notice, most of the "CQB" M203's are fired at a distance slightly over 10m if the opponet is on both feet because frankly; any closer than that, you actually have to HIT the person with it otherwise you're probably going to kill yourself or miss entirely. Considering the changes that are already verified (You can no longer jump and shoot in the upcoming patch), I think the GL can go without any modifications and the complaining will stop (Well, the semi-legit complaing that is).

The one thing I don't wanna' see is some insane nerf (Less Grenades, Arming distance [There are some instance were I can fire an M203 close from above and opponet, that distance is less than 15m, the arming distance would completely screw that up for me] etc. etc.), yet if Dice/Ea does decide to apply a nerf. At least bring the Assault classes rifle deviation up to par with SFs. It's just mind boggling to be serious competition with a carbine at extended ranges.

Edit:

I am not going to debate this, but if your play a "teamplay" class, you are at a disadvantage against Assualt, ridiculously so.

See. This is the mindset that's making a big deal outa' all of this. Assault is "Supposed" to be the dominate infantry force. I mean, that's all it has going for it. It cannot heal, it cannot restock, it cannot plant mines, it cannot fire at extended ranges with extreme accuracy and damage, it cannot harm heavy targets, and it cannot do anything to Arty/Commanding Assets. Yet, instead it trades all of that for the ability to dominate in close quarters combat. I mean, if it didn't do that well, wouldn't it just be a medic without a medpack?

The limitation on the M16/Ak-101/Ak-47/G3 is what bugs me the most and is mah' primary reason why I fear the GL being nerfed. I feel that EA/Dice is simply gunna' gimp the hell outa the Grenade Launchers and do almost nothing for the fact that the Carbine brother of every weapon (Minus the Chinese which use weapons from two completely different familes) is more stable and accurate [even at range] than it's older [longer] brother.

Doesn't sit well with me.

{WP}Paas

[Jesse]

Re: More crow on the menu for GL users...

You give the player 2 meter jump height, equip him with an explosive
projectile that can kill point blank with little damage to the shooter and say
it's really meant for vehicles.. I'm sorry but the lack of foresight here is
mindboggling.

I second that. They seem very resistant to reducing the super-human jump height for some reason, when it's fairly obvious players are jumping way too high.

While I somewhat agree that most tactics DO have a counter (even all do, although some counters require the aligning of all the planets in our solar system, and a few in about 10 other solar systems, before such conditions are met :p ) it's the matter of practicality involved or the actual counter-tactics that it breeds. If someone keeps running around noob-tubing and I get fed up with them in a 64 player Karkand server, I'm going to go assault and put some grenades in him until the team progresses. Same with the C4 rabbits, I've found the grenade launcher one of the few things other than armored vehicles that I can have at least a 50% chance of living with these people. The effect when you counter something with something equally as problematic, is simply chaos.

While I don't quite see the motive behind the grenade launchers being assaults way of assaulting vehicles (whether they meant armor or not), I have finished off a few main battle tanks with these before, and then thought "wtf?". With spec ops and AT in the game already, and the rare engineer mine, I don't see why they even bothered to consider letting assault attack vehicles, unless this is limited to a humvee/vodnik or anything smaller. Making it any more powerful than that just...doesn't make sense.

[<DV8>mrbucket]

Re: More crow on the menu for GL users...

I am beginning to think that just getting rid of the GL is the best option here. No one is going to be entirely happy with the changes, in the pro or anti camp. I don't think this fix will stop the noob-tubers from spoiling the game, they are still overpowered weapons. But, the real issue here, I think, is when there is a whole team of Assualt and Spec ops. Then it becomes very frustrating, especially when you try to play the game as it is meant to be played, wait, no forget I saiid that! I am not going to debate this, but if your play a "teamplay" class, you are at a disadvantage against Assualt, ridiculously so.

I agree, but to make it fair, give the assault more grenades and more ammo.